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If you don't support diverse movies, you're racist!

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Blasted Craigs
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If you don't support diverse movies, you're racist!

Postby Blasted Craigs » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:12 pm

The claim:
Movies and other media must be more diverse

Ok, there are three reactions to this issue.
The mainstream- People should be less bigoted, and more accepting of main roles and in fact most roles being more diverse, we show how progressive and modern we are by being more accepting of, and in fact, demanding that popular fiction and entertainment be more diverse, and include POC (people of color). To feel bad a character you like is recast as a minority shows you are racist and bigoted. And for not buying the product, you prove you only want white characters.
http://www.screengeek.net/2017/04/03/marvel-blames-low-comic-sales-on-fans-not-wanting-diversity/

The Critic-Come on. How many times are you gonna flip the sex or race of a well beloved character into another race or sex, I mean, aren't there enough (insert minority here)'s in movies yet? And why can't you just make new, good minority characters? I'm not racist when I say I don't like how ridiculous your version of (insert beloved character here) is. Stop ruining my entertainment to spread your ideology.

Everyone else- I really don't care. Don't watch much t.v., entertainment pretty much sucks anyways. OR......I don't really see a problem, artistic creative freedom and all that.

So, where is your opinion on this issue?
I fall in the Critic category.
To me, it's not the bad lines. Its not that a female beats 100 men(action movies are unrealistic by nature, otherwise they are boring) It' not having minorities play traditional roles that were white (Kingpin and Nick fury, both cast with actors that seem like the character was made for them, if you disregard skin color. Both good choices.)
All this is good, and I like the movies for these reasons. There is another reason I get upset at these movies.
It's when they get on a soapbox, and use a movie as a preaching tool to spread their ideology, and both sides are bad about this, but it is way, WAY more prevalent on the left. An example of right leaning violation is when all non Christians in a movie are evil, and despicable, and only redeemable if they "see the error of their ways" and convert.
The same happens on the Left.
All CIS white culture is seen as evil, irredeemable, and only rarely seen as redeemable or slightly less disgusting if they show an appropriate level of hatred for their own race, and must also show an appropriate level of deference for other races and must admit the superiority of any arguments made by POC.(people of color).
Another aspect is when they write a shrill, horrible character, and instead of having people react to the character in varying ways, because they are representing the left ideology, the character can do no wrong, and is beloved by all For absolutely no reason at all!. This is piss poor writing, and is par for the course in movies today. Maybe because the writers are sooo busy telling us how evil the Western world and Western thinking is, they forget to write good characters. This is referred to as a Mary Sue, and this is when writers use approval by other characters or allow the character to one up the other characters to justify and elevate a character as "ideal".

An example is the new Star Wars movie, when the new Jedi, Rey, is on Hans ship, and 1-knows more about the millennial falcon than Han Solo, and upon meeting Rey, Han solo feels so close to her he offers her a position on her ship, and defers to her as much as possible.(Not referencing her as a minority, but as a Mary/Gary Sue character template.)

And lets reiterate, its not that die hard fans are anti diversity. Before the SJW culture infected entertainment in recent years, diverse characters were popular and prevalent.

There were often female character versions of main characters, but they often were separate characters and had their own line of comics and shows. Superman/Supergirl, Batman/Batgirl, Spiderman/Spidergirl, Hulk/Shehulk, the list goes on and on. And as far as minority characters? Luke Cage, Spawn, Bumblebee (not the transformer), Amanda Waller (of DC), Blade, Cyborg, Storm, Sam Wilson(Falcon), Green Lantern( This hero position passed between many hands), the list goes on. Hell, there are rumors the new Black Panther movie will have a 90% minority cast. Considering the setting, (It's supposed to be set in his home country, a fictional country set in Africa) this is, IMHO, fine. As long as the story is well written and the characters are believable.
Sourcehttps://studybreaks.com/2016/12/06/black-panther/

So no, it's not about a rejection of strong female or minority characters. Its a rejection of piss poor writing, of using a beloved IP and corrupting it to further one's own political ideology.
Case in point? I would be just as upset if they had Thor convert to Christianity, trade his hammer for a bible and cross, and they portrayed Odin as Satan the great deceiver, and all the characters that were in Valhalla as evil demons, and have Thor say and proclaim all non Christians as evil. It wouldn't be Thor, it would be a corrupted version of the IP, used to further an ideology. and I wouldn't support the franchise. And I wouldn't be anti Christian, a Christianityphobe if you will, for refusing to buy their product.

Your thoughts?
Oh, and the recast I mentioned of Nick Fury and Kingpin, showing that recasting, when done right, can be a good thing.
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Last edited by Blasted Craigs on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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HC Eredivisie
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Postby HC Eredivisie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Samuel L. M. Jackson was already Nick Fury in the comics.
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Blasted Craigs
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Postby Blasted Craigs » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:21 pm

HC Eredivisie wrote:Samuel L. M. Jackson was already Nick Fury in the comics.

Um....no.
The pic is the original Nick Fury. They changed the character in the comics after his portrayal of the character.
A change I am actually fine with, but no. The left is the original.
(I just realized the irony of putting the originals on the left. Pun not intended, but enjoyed non the less :) )
The government in America can best be described with an analogy. The two political parties are two cats, the elite is a rat, power is the cheese, and the common people is the floor. The floor feels two cats can guard the cheese better than one. But the cats fight each other, and the rat makes off with the cheese in glee. The floor cannot leave, and soon both cats serve the rat, because the rat has the all powerful cheese, and gives the cats a small bit of it. So the floor gets crapped on by all three, as they eat the cheese together.

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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:42 pm

Blasted Craigs wrote:
HC Eredivisie wrote:Samuel L. M. Jackson was already Nick Fury in the comics.

Um....no.
The pic is the original Nick Fury. They changed the character in the comics after his portrayal of the character.
A change I am actually fine with, but no. The left is the original.
(I just realized the irony of putting the originals on the left. Pun not intended, but enjoyed non the less :) )


No Ultimate Nick Fury was drawn to look like Samuel Jackson in August 2001 - 7 years before the MCU movies. They even make a joke in the comic when Fury says that if he was ever portrayed in a movie it should be by "Mr. Samuel L. Jackson, of course, no discussion."

The point though is in the Ultimate Universe on which the movies are predominantly based Nick Fury has always been black

You are right though that Nick Fury Jr came out in 2012 as the black son of original (white) Nick Fury and was (also) drawn to look like Samuel Jackson because of the movies.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:55 pm

I paid all my movie diversity dues when I watched Don't Be A Menace To South Central By Drinking Your Juice In The Hood.

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The Widening Gyre
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:55 pm

The Critic-Come on. How many times are you gonna flip the sex or race of a well beloved character into another race or sex, I mean, aren't there enough (insert minority here)'s in movies yet?


Nope.

And why can't you just make new, good minority characters?


Because Hollywood is allergic to new IP.

I'm not racist when I say I don't like how ridiculous your version of (insert beloved character here) is. Stop ruining my entertainment to spread your ideology.


If a character being a different race or sexuality or whatever bothers you there is a good chance you're being a bigot, yes.
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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:58 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:If a character being a different race or sexuality or whatever bothers you there is a good chance you're being a bigot, yes.

TIL that not liking canon being viciously anal-raped means you're a bigot.

Anyway, as for my personal opinion, as long as it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief nor the canon and add something (i.e. not picking someone just because of his race but rather because of his talent) to the story then it's more or less alright by me.
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The Widening Gyre
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:05 pm

Aellex wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:If a character being a different race or sexuality or whatever bothers you there is a good chance you're being a bigot, yes.

TIL that not liking canon being viciously anal-raped means you're a bigot.


The cult of canon is one of the worst parts of geek culture. Breeds mindless literalism and zealotry and turns culture into a weapon with which to hit other people who enjoy it.
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Postby Kaztropol » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:07 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:allergic to new IP.


Since much of the discussion seems to relate to comic books, then, this is an issue that I think affects comic books quite a lot more.

Consider: How many Robins have died in the comic books, causing Batman to experience emotions and such ? I'm not a comic book aficionado, although I have enough awareness of them, that I'm fairly sure that at least 3 Robins have died in the comic books, and been replaced.

Parallel universes, alternate timelines, re-boots, re-imaginings. Like, seriously, what ?

(incidental, it's somewhat depressing, that The Punisher has been re-imagined several times, with the war that he was a veteran of changing. iirc, originally The Punisher was a Vietnam veteran. Then a Gulf War veteran. Then a Yugoslav veteran. Then an Iraq War veteran. Always a newer war, for The Punisher to be re-imagined as being a veteran of, in order to keep the comics up-to-date with more modern culture - cellphones instead of telephone boxes, smartphones instead of cellphones etc.)


SUPERMAN DIES ! (in this particular worldline, to be replaced by the Superman from Earth 478 or something).

:eyebrow:

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Postby Sovaal » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:12 pm

As long as a movie that is either;
A) a fictional story and has good actors and script

and;

B) Is based on true events and sticks to true events

I'm ok with whatever or whoever makes up the cast.
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Postby Gim » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:14 pm

I don't mind having actors from diverse ethnicities. In fact, I begin to like them, such as Charlize Theron and Denzel Washington.
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The Widening Gyre
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:22 pm

Kaztropol wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:allergic to new IP.


Since much of the discussion seems to relate to comic books, then, this is an issue that I think affects comic books quite a lot more.

Consider: How many Robins have died in the comic books, causing Batman to experience emotions and such ? I'm not a comic book aficionado, although I have enough awareness of them, that I'm fairly sure that at least 3 Robins have died in the comic books, and been replaced.

Parallel universes, alternate timelines, re-boots, re-imaginings. Like, seriously, what ?

(incidental, it's somewhat depressing, that The Punisher has been re-imagined several times, with the war that he was a veteran of changing. iirc, originally The Punisher was a Vietnam veteran. Then a Gulf War veteran. Then a Yugoslav veteran. Then an Iraq War veteran. Always a newer war, for The Punisher to be re-imagined as being a veteran of, in order to keep the comics up-to-date with more modern culture - cellphones instead of telephone boxes, smartphones instead of cellphones etc.)


SUPERMAN DIES ! (in this particular worldline, to be replaced by the Superman from Earth 478 or something).

:eyebrow:


Which is of course one of the amusing things about this whole thing. Superman being a Ukrainian peasant in the Soviet Union is new and interesting and innovative, but Superman being gay or whatever is somehow unthinkable and a desecration of the holy canon. The line of acceptability seems to always be drawn exactly at the boundaries of sexuality, gender and race. Almost like geek culture has problems with those three things.
Last edited by The Widening Gyre on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:30 pm

Good Lord, spoiler those images.

I find your "three reactions" thing dubious.

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Postby Kaztropol » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:35 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:Which is of course one of the amusing things about this whole thing. Superman being a Ukrainian peasant in the Soviet Union is new and interesting and innovative, but Superman being gay or whatever is somehow unthinkable and a desecration of the holy canon. The line of acceptability seems to always be drawn exactly at the boundaries of sexuality, gender and race. Almost like geek culture has problems with those three things.


I can identify one obvious problem with the idea of the homosexual Superman.

Lewis Lane would be the straightforward choice. But is Leon Lang a good name ? Lawrence ? Ludwig ? Luke ? Laszlo ? Who is Clark Kent's previous boyfriend who will keep re-appearing to ruin things with Lewis Lane ? The names just don't fit easily.

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Postby Keskinen » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:48 pm

Quite frankly, I don't care as long as it's a good movie. That being said, it still irks me that a NYT critic decided that Dunkirk was racist because "there weren't enough minorities".
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:56 pm

I feel like in order to make this an argument the hyperbole has to be cranked pretty high.

I can't argue that representation doesn't matter and then turn around and cry like a kid with a dropped ice cream cone when there's suddenly one less person that looks like me. Either it doesn't matter and cast whoever or it does matter and maybe open up the casting to reflect other parts of the population. If your fandom is so precious and delicate that it can be ruined by one casting decision you are too fragile for this world. I've survived two shitty Ghost Rider movies and one mediocre The Shadow still intact. You can manage. Put on your big boy pants and let some other kids have time with the toys.
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Postby Aellex » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:58 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:The cult of canon is one of the worst parts of geek culture. Breeds mindless literalism and zealotry and turns culture into a weapon with which to hit other people who enjoy it.

Talked just like a true canon-raping casual. :p
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:03 pm

All I know is I really want to see what Marvel did with Black Panther, and I can't wait til February.

As to the point of there being a well-known female counterpart to male heroes, well, let's look at that:

BatGIRL. (There is a Batwoman, but it may not be as well known except to Batman comic fans.)
SuperGIRL.
SpiderGIRL (Yes, there is also a Spiderwoman.)
She-Hulk

None of them have their own identities, except as female versions of the original male character, and the term 'girl' is to be blunt, childlike.

On the other hand, there are strong women comic characters they can portray who aren't female versions of a male character.

Wonder Woman comes to mind immediately, and she's taking the movie world by storm.
Catwoman needs a better vehicle than the Halle Berry movie. Seriously.
What about Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers)?
Storm, Psylocke, Rogue?
Black Widow in her own movie?
Zatanna should be a no-brainer given the popularity of Doctor Strange.
We can do better than this.

And rather than just changing a character's ethnicity, I think the push should be to create new characters, fully thought out and formed, from those backgrounds. They shouldn't be parodies of their background, but 3D characters. That said -- I don't have an issue with Halle Berre being Catwoman. My issue is the movie was BAD. So yes, have Psylocke and make sure she's played by an Asian actress. And recast whom you want, but also work on adding characters of different backgrounds to the narrative. They don't all have to be WASPs. ;)
Last edited by Katganistan on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Galloism » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:05 pm

Katganistan wrote:And rather than just changing a character's ethnicity, I think the push should be to create new characters, fully thought out and formed, from those backgrounds. They shouldn't be parodies of their background, but 3D characters.

You seem to think the modern movie industry can creatively design deep interesting characters not ripped from comic books.

I'm not convinced this is the case.
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Galloism wrote:
Katganistan wrote:And rather than just changing a character's ethnicity, I think the push should be to create new characters, fully thought out and formed, from those backgrounds. They shouldn't be parodies of their background, but 3D characters.

You seem to think the modern movie industry can creatively design deep interesting characters not ripped from comic books.

I'm not convinced this is the case.


Let the books lead, and the movies will follow the money.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:18 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Galloism wrote:You seem to think the modern movie industry can creatively design deep interesting characters not ripped from comic books.

I'm not convinced this is the case.


Let the books lead, and the movies will follow the money.


Are the books Making money though? Do kids read comic books like they did in the 40-70's?
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:33 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Katganistan wrote:
Let the books lead, and the movies will follow the money.


Are the books Making money though? Do kids read comic books like they did in the 40-70's?

They'll go to digital subscriptions, eventually, I'm sure. I mean solely, not part digital/part paper like it is now.
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:36 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Katganistan wrote:
Let the books lead, and the movies will follow the money.


Are the books Making money though? Do kids read comic books like they did in the 40-70's?

Well they still are making new Marvel comics so I guess so
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:38 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Are the books Making money though? Do kids read comic books like they did in the 40-70's?

They'll go to digital subscriptions, eventually, I'm sure. I mean solely, not part digital/part paper like it is now.

I don't know, the question your post raised was are they developing new characters.at the book level and making money with them.

Star wars was able to get away with it, but it's a movie franchise, and the plot line demanded new characters to move it forward. What I am wondering is that true with the books.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Are the books Making money though? Do kids read comic books like they did in the 40-70's?

Well they still are making new Marvel comics so I guess so

Is it with new characters? Is there something to transition to the movies?
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