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Charlie bit it (and it really hurts)

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Libertypendence Park
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Charlie bit it (and it really hurts)

Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:36 pm

Days after the U.S. doctor Professor Michio Hirano reviewed Charlie Gard's medical conditions and deemed him irrecoverably ill, Chris Gard and Connie Yates have elected to end their legal fight to save him.

Charlie Gard's parents are spending their "last precious moments" with their terminally ill son after ending their legal fight to take him to the US for treatment.

Chris Gard and Connie Yates want to spend the "maximum amount of time they have left with Charlie".

The couple ended the case after a US doctor told them it was now too late to treat Charlie's rare genetic condition.

Lawyers for the couple are due back in court on Tuesday afternoon.

Great Ormond Street Hospital (GOSH) has not said when life support will end.

However, Mr Gard and Ms Yates, from Bedfont, west London, said Charlie would not reach his first birthday on 4 August.


I'm surprised at the lack of discussion about this on NSG. In case you were unaware of the ordeal, here's essentially what happened: Charlie Gard was a child to British parents born on August 4th, 2016 with a rare genetic disorder that left him with brain damage and paralysis in the extremities. He is initially healthy but needs to be hospitalized in the Great Ormond Street hospital (GOSH)* in mid-October. England's socialist healthcare system provides ICU treatment, but prospects are dim for Charlie. The system elects not to attempt experimental treatment for Charlie. Early January 2017, a crowd-funding page is started to finance such options; over the course of three months, they raise 1.3 million pounds (about 1.7 million USD). The legal details after this are intricate and tedious, but it boils down to this: the high court, at the advice of hospital professionals, rules that Charlie must be taken off life support and be allowed to die. Medical agents testify that Charlie has little to no quality of life, and must not be allowed to suffer further at the expense of the British taxpayer. The story steadily accumulates media attention before breaking into the international scene, with responses from Trump and the Vatican and all sorts of other interesting folks. What happened and why it happened is a matter of intense political debate.

Despite having the money to try the experimental treatment for their child, Charlie's parents were not allowed to do so, because under British medical law Charlie is under the care and stewardship of the NHS, and rather adamantly not the parents. In their opinion, Charlie is suffering, and they're paying to keep him alive anyway; why should two sentimental fools be allowed to hurt a child, whose burden ultimately falls on society, not themselves? By paying for treatment, the British health system assumes guardianship over Charlie, superseding the parents' claims. And even then, according to them, it does not matter that they have money to pay for treatment, and want guardianship over their own child. The existence of the child is a partnership between the child and society, not the child and the parents.

Charlie's parents maintain that the relationship between the child and the parents is supreme over the nebulous claim "society" has on the child and that if they want him in their care, and they have the money to do so, they should be allowed to take him. That the health system can literally choose life or death for a patient because it claims to know best is an egregious overreach of government power.

I claim to hold no particular fondness for one life over another, so if I prefer Charlie's life over anyone else's because he is widely publicized and they are not, I am doing it wrong. $1.7 million is an insane amount of money that could do an insane amount of good in the world, and to spend it all on one person seems a terrible waste...

However.

They are the parents. They have a natural, God-given stewardship over their child that clearly and obviously trumps anything that any social construct, even a government, has to say on the matter. No government should have the power to deny the Mr. Gard and Ms. Yates the right to spend their money in such fashion, and no government should even approach such an awesome power as the death panel. Make no mistake: Charlie was the victim of a death panel. Death panels do not look like execution chambers, but instead bean counters handing reports up to a bureaucracy with finite resources, deciding which cases should be saved and which should be discarded for the best outcome for society. If Charlie was less expensive or socialism worked a little better, he might have survived.

(Well, that, and if that American neurology professor had cared to show up sooner, and not just after it became a massive news story.)


So, NSG, enough of my blabbing. What do you think? How should this case have gone down, in your opinion, and what lessons do you take away from it?



*GOSH, incidentally, holds the intellectual property rights to Peter Pan, and profits from it and all derivative stories.
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The Widening Gyre
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:51 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote: Medical agents testify that Charlie has little to no quality of life, and must not be allowed to suffer further at the expense of the British taxpayer.


Gard is on life support, and his doctors decided that it would be inhumane in light of several severe seizures and his ongoing decline in health to attempt more invasive life support measures to try and prolong his life for the experimental treatment, which they considered not worth the excess pain keeping him on life support would cause. They instead wanted to begin palliative care for him, which would ease his symptoms and allow him more comfort in his final months. Your attempt to politicize his case by blaming 'socialism' and 'death panels' is blatantly mercenary and does you no credit.
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Postby Idzequitch » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:55 pm

This is a tragedy made worse by a travesty of a decision by the hospital. Sickening, really.
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Libertypendence Park
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Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:59 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:
Libertypendence Park wrote: Medical agents testify that Charlie has little to no quality of life, and must not be allowed to suffer further at the expense of the British taxpayer.


Gard is on life support, and his doctors decided that it would be inhumane in light of several severe seizures and his ongoing decline in health to attempt more invasive life support measures to try and prolong his life for the experimental treatment, which they considered not worth the excess pain keeping him on life support would cause. They instead wanted to begin palliative care for him, which would ease his symptoms and allow him more comfort in his final months. Your attempt to politicize his case by blaming 'socialism' and 'death panels' is blatantly mercenary and does you no credit.


If I was the parent, honestly, I don't know what I'd do. I think I would probably choose palliative care, personally. But at the same time, the parents' choice to attempt to treat Charlie must be respected. I'm upset that this choice was taken away from them because of the structure of the NHS.
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I have aspergers...


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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:03 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:
Gard is on life support, and his doctors decided that it would be inhumane in light of several severe seizures and his ongoing decline in health to attempt more invasive life support measures to try and prolong his life for the experimental treatment, which they considered not worth the excess pain keeping him on life support would cause. They instead wanted to begin palliative care for him, which would ease his symptoms and allow him more comfort in his final months. Your attempt to politicize his case by blaming 'socialism' and 'death panels' is blatantly mercenary and does you no credit.


If I was the parent, honestly, I don't know what I'd do. I think I would probably choose palliative care, personally. But at the same time, the parents' choice to attempt to treat Charlie must be respected. I'm upset that this choice was taken away from them because of the structure of the NHS.


Nothing to do with the structure of the NHS. US doctors go to court all the time in order to protect their patients interests.

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The Widening Gyre
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:06 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:
Gard is on life support, and his doctors decided that it would be inhumane in light of several severe seizures and his ongoing decline in health to attempt more invasive life support measures to try and prolong his life for the experimental treatment, which they considered not worth the excess pain keeping him on life support would cause. They instead wanted to begin palliative care for him, which would ease his symptoms and allow him more comfort in his final months. Your attempt to politicize his case by blaming 'socialism' and 'death panels' is blatantly mercenary and does you no credit.


If I was the parent, honestly, I don't know what I'd do. I think I would probably choose palliative care, personally. But at the same time, the parents' choice to attempt to treat Charlie must be respected. I'm upset that this choice was taken away from them because of the structure of the NHS.


Has nothing to do with the NHS and everything to do with the right of doctors to act in the best interest of their patients. Parents do not have a universal right to do whatever they want to their children, particularly if the children will suffer because of it.
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Postby Kazarogkai » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:10 pm

From what I remember under English law the rights of the child supersede the rights of the parents. In this case his right to not have to live a life full of suffering are more important than his parents hopes for the most part. Personally I'm with the hospital on this one. There is no cure nor proper treatment for his disease and I don't put much stock in experimental medicine and the boy in question is potentially in sever pain and suffering and without any hope for a quality life. Charlies rights to have a quality life, and if that is not possible, to die with dignity are more important than his parents hopes and dreams and right to guardianship.

The hospital and by extension the government are just doing what is their natural duty, aka their duty to provide a voice for those who cannot speak for themselves and stand up for those who cannot stand for themselves against others. In this case it just so happens to be the parents. Sad and unfortunate but not unjust.
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Libertypendence Park
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Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:32 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:
Libertypendence Park wrote:
If I was the parent, honestly, I don't know what I'd do. I think I would probably choose palliative care, personally. But at the same time, the parents' choice to attempt to treat Charlie must be respected. I'm upset that this choice was taken away from them because of the structure of the NHS.


Has nothing to do with the NHS and everything to do with the right of doctors to act in the best interest of their patients. Parents do not have a universal right to do whatever they want to their children, particularly if the children will suffer because of it.


Who gets to decide what's the "best interest"? It seems extremely dangerous to give that power to the government by default. Maybe in extreme cases, sure, if the parents are provably psychologically unstable, or want to heal their children with magic crystals and quantum incantations. But 99.9% of all parents really honestly actually do have their children's best interests in mind. Why should we assume Gard's parents do not, just because he has severe seizures and an ongoing decline in health towards a seemingly inevitable death? What amount of apparent suffering is enough for the government to step in, and, given that governments naturally tend towards more power over time, who's to say they will not gradually move the bar lower and lower?
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I have aspergers...


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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:35 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:
Has nothing to do with the NHS and everything to do with the right of doctors to act in the best interest of their patients. Parents do not have a universal right to do whatever they want to their children, particularly if the children will suffer because of it.


Who gets to decide what's the "best interest"? It seems extremely dangerous to give that power to the government by default. Maybe in extreme cases, sure, if the parents are provably psychologically unstable, or want to heal their children with magic crystals and quantum incantations. But 99.9% of all parents really honestly actually do have their children's best interests in mind. Why should we assume Gard's parents do not, just because he has severe seizures and an ongoing decline in health towards a seemingly inevitable death? What amount of apparent suffering is enough for the government to step in, and, given that governments naturally tend towards more power over time, who's to say they will not gradually move the bar lower and lower?


Government doesn't decide, the judiciary does.

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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:41 pm

I'll never understand why some are so adamant about defending the decision of the state in this matter. There was no compelling state interest and the government overreached here, and that's the end of that. I don't need to defend this specific case in order to make the general point that the state has the right to intervene in parenting if it has a compelling reason, just like I don't need to defend the saudis caning a woman for showing her face to make the general point that public decency laws should be a thing. Charlie was going to die no matter what happened, and at that point the state shouldn't have much of a say in the parent's decision. They want to try a risky experimental procedure on another continent? Go for it.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:50 pm

Diopolis wrote:I'll never understand why some are so adamant about defending the decision of the state in this matter. There was no compelling state interest and the government overreached here, and that's the end of that. I don't need to defend this specific case in order to make the general point that the state has the right to intervene in parenting if it has a compelling reason, just like I don't need to defend the saudis caning a woman for showing her face to make the general point that public decency laws should be a thing. Charlie was going to die no matter what happened, and at that point the state shouldn't have much of a say in the parent's decision. They want to try a risky experimental procedure on another continent? Go for it.


The hospital did invite the American doctor to consult on the care of the kid back in January. He declined to make the super arduous flight over the atlantic, preferring to require the family and child, who was unable to swallow, come to him.

Not being able to swallow is an important thing there. Do you know what happens to eardrums when you go to 8,000 feet of altitude and are unable to equalise the pressure in your ears?

Then when he did show up to talk to the courts on 13th July, he had not kept up with the notes in the case, had not read the first court decision in April and admitted to being likely to gain financially from administering the treatment.

I'd argue that the state does have a role in protecting children from snake-oil salesmen....

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Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:52 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Libertypendence Park wrote:
Who gets to decide what's the "best interest"? It seems extremely dangerous to give that power to the government by default. Maybe in extreme cases, sure, if the parents are provably psychologically unstable, or want to heal their children with magic crystals and quantum incantations. But 99.9% of all parents really honestly actually do have their children's best interests in mind. Why should we assume Gard's parents do not, just because he has severe seizures and an ongoing decline in health towards a seemingly inevitable death? What amount of apparent suffering is enough for the government to step in, and, given that governments naturally tend towards more power over time, who's to say they will not gradually move the bar lower and lower?


Government doesn't decide, the judiciary does.


An arbitrary and nominal distinction. The judiciary judges by the regulations set by the governing bodies. What the governing bodies say, goes.
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Lincolnopolis wrote:We could finally have a television channel covering Disability issues and finally have a growing number of people with disabilities that own and run companies. Finally, I wouldn't have to hear the rude and offensive things from non-disabled people. Yeah, I'd be glad to not have to deal with you.

I have aspergers...


#tolerance

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Postby Soyouso » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:54 pm

Yet another "What if" fear I have about having a baby some day. Granted, I'm only fifteen, so that isn't happening any time soon. Somehow I can't feel sad, I just kinda feel empty to be honest. I have all day actually, so that's probably why. Losing your child to an illness like that...that's something I can't relate to but it's certainly one of the worst things that can happen to a parent.
Last edited by Soyouso on Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:54 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I'll never understand why some are so adamant about defending the decision of the state in this matter. There was no compelling state interest and the government overreached here, and that's the end of that. I don't need to defend this specific case in order to make the general point that the state has the right to intervene in parenting if it has a compelling reason, just like I don't need to defend the saudis caning a woman for showing her face to make the general point that public decency laws should be a thing. Charlie was going to die no matter what happened, and at that point the state shouldn't have much of a say in the parent's decision. They want to try a risky experimental procedure on another continent? Go for it.


The hospital did invite the American doctor to consult on the care of the kid back in January. He declined to make the super arduous flight over the atlantic, preferring to require the family and child, who was unable to swallow, come to him.

Not being able to swallow is an important thing there. Do you know what happens to eardrums when you go to 8,000 feet of altitude and are unable to equalise the pressure in your ears?

Then when he did show up to talk to the courts on 13th July, he had not kept up with the notes in the case, had not read the first court decision in April and admitted to being likely to gain financially from administering the treatment.

I'd argue that the state does have a role in protecting children from snake-oil salesmen....

The child wasn't paying.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:56 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The hospital did invite the American doctor to consult on the care of the kid back in January. He declined to make the super arduous flight over the atlantic, preferring to require the family and child, who was unable to swallow, come to him.

Not being able to swallow is an important thing there. Do you know what happens to eardrums when you go to 8,000 feet of altitude and are unable to equalise the pressure in your ears?

Then when he did show up to talk to the courts on 13th July, he had not kept up with the notes in the case, had not read the first court decision in April and admitted to being likely to gain financially from administering the treatment.

I'd argue that the state does have a role in protecting children from snake-oil salesmen....

The child wasn't paying.


That's what you took from all that? Jesus...

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Ryanasic
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Postby Ryanasic » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:04 pm

One of the few consequences of big government,unfortunately.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:I'm surprised at the lack of discussion about this on NSG.

We've discussed it multiple times, I believe.

Despite having the money to try the experimental treatment for their child, Charlie's parents were not allowed to do so, because under British medical law Charlie is under the care and stewardship of the NHS, and rather adamantly not the parents. In their opinion, Charlie is suffering, and they're paying to keep him alive anyway; why should two sentimental fools be allowed to hurt a child, whose burden ultimately falls on society, not themselves? By paying for treatment, the British health system assumes guardianship over Charlie, superseding the parents' claims. And even then, according to them, it does not matter that they have money to pay for treatment, and want guardianship over their own child. The existence of the child is a partnership between the child and society, not the child and the parents.

Charlie's parents maintain that the relationship between the child and the parents is supreme over the nebulous claim "society" has on the child and that if they want him in their care, and they have the money to do so, they should be allowed to take him. That the health system can literally choose life or death for a patient because it claims to know best is an egregious overreach of government power.

I find your assessment of the situation dubious.

I claim to hold no particular fondness for one life over another, so if I prefer Charlie's life over anyone else's because he is widely publicized and they are not, I am doing it wrong. $1.7 million is an insane amount of money that could do an insane amount of good in the world, and to spend it all on one person seems a terrible waste...

However.

They are the parents. They have a natural, God-given stewardship over their child that clearly and obviously trumps anything that any social construct, even a government, has to say on the matter.

Parents cannot simply do as they please with their children on the imagined say-so of God. Children have rights, and the government has a duty to protect those rights, even if that means acting against the wishes of the parents.
No government should have the power to deny the Mr. Gard and Ms. Yates the right to spend their money in such fashion,

The money isn't an issue.
and no government should even approach such an awesome power as the death panel. Make no mistake: Charlie was the victim of a death panel. Death panels do not look like execution chambers, but instead bean counters handing reports up to a bureaucracy with finite resources, deciding which cases should be saved and which should be discarded for the best outcome for society. If Charlie was less expensive or socialism worked a little better, he might have survived.

A blatant lie. Charlie Gard is not being taken off life support because the government doesn't want to pay for his healthcare any more. Whoever told you that is a liar and you should be embarrassed to have believed them.
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Postby Ebnious » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Soyouso wrote:Yet another "What if" fear I have about having a baby some day. Granted, I'm only fifteen, so that isn't happening any time soon. Somehow I can't feel sad, I just kinda feel empty to be honest. I have all day actually, so that's probably why. Losing your child to an illness like that...that's something I can't relate to but it's certainly one of the worst things that can happen to a parent.

And the fact that the parents can't be freaking parents. Unless its abuse, let parents do what they want with their kids. They made that little human and they should have a say.
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:10 pm

Ebnious wrote:
Soyouso wrote:Yet another "What if" fear I have about having a baby some day. Granted, I'm only fifteen, so that isn't happening any time soon. Somehow I can't feel sad, I just kinda feel empty to be honest. I have all day actually, so that's probably why. Losing your child to an illness like that...that's something I can't relate to but it's certainly one of the worst things that can happen to a parent.

And the fact that the parents can't be freaking parents. Unless its abuse, let parents do what they want with their kids. They made that little human and they should have a say.

Humans aren't property. Making one doesn't give you ownership of them.
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Postby Idzequitch » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:12 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Ebnious wrote:And the fact that the parents can't be freaking parents. Unless its abuse, let parents do what they want with their kids. They made that little human and they should have a say.

Humans aren't property. Making one doesn't give you ownership of them.

There is typically a responsibility to take care of them, a responsibility they've not been allowed to act upon.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:14 pm

Idzequitch wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Humans aren't property. Making one doesn't give you ownership of them.

There is typically a responsibility to take care of them, a responsibility they've not been allowed to act upon.


On occasion it really is better to listen to the people who are experts. I'm sure the parents love the kid very deeply, but they're not experts in child medicine and arcane genetic disorders.

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Postby Idzequitch » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:16 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Idzequitch wrote:There is typically a responsibility to take care of them, a responsibility they've not been allowed to act upon.


On occasion it really is better to listen to the people who are experts. I'm sure the parents love the kid very deeply, but they're not experts in child medicine and arcane genetic disorders.

If I was a parent, and the experts told me "We're just gonna let him die" you can bet your neighbor's yard I wouldn't accept that. Ever.
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Postby The Widening Gyre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:19 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:
Has nothing to do with the NHS and everything to do with the right of doctors to act in the best interest of their patients. Parents do not have a universal right to do whatever they want to their children, particularly if the children will suffer because of it.


Who gets to decide what's the "best interest"? It seems extremely dangerous to give that power to the government by default. Maybe in extreme cases, sure, if the parents are provably psychologically unstable, or want to heal their children with magic crystals and quantum incantations. But 99.9% of all parents really honestly actually do have their children's best interests in mind. Why should we assume Gard's parents do not, just because he has severe seizures and an ongoing decline in health towards a seemingly inevitable death? What amount of apparent suffering is enough for the government to step in, and, given that governments naturally tend towards more power over time, who's to say they will not gradually move the bar lower and lower?


The doctors and the hospital were the ones arguing for Gard's palliative care, not the government. Gards parents are also not medical professionals or experts, and more than that are human - they can absolutely be wrong about their choices in care. Where such decisions may actively harm the child in their care doctors are well within their right to step in on behalf of the child.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:19 pm

Idzequitch wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
On occasion it really is better to listen to the people who are experts. I'm sure the parents love the kid very deeply, but they're not experts in child medicine and arcane genetic disorders.

If I was a parent, and the experts told me "We're just gonna let him die" you can bet your neighbor's yard I wouldn't accept that. Ever.


There is a difference between "we're just gonna let him die" and "there is nothing that current medical science can do to help".

The kid has mush for a brain. He can't breathe without invasive ventilation. If he were to survive then he's a vegetable for life.

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Bakra
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Founded: Jul 28, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakra » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:24 pm

I usually stay out of NSG nowadays, but I'm alarmed that no one has really commented (anywhere, really) on the nature of the procedure.

The procedure was identified as "experimental" most of the time. Those of us that completed primary school know the scientific method culminates in multiple exeperiements to test a hypothesis. I'm sorry to put Charlie's life in these terms, but he would have been part of an experiement for doctors to study and perfect their methods or lead to new treatments, even in the sizeable chance of his death.

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