Socialism: What do we do now?

[THE UNITED FEDERATION OF ALGORENIA]

For the most part i agree with this, but to claim socilaism has failed is base less. Honestly, with all the claims of vioence and land seizure, im picking up that people are confucing socialism with its more radical sibling communism. Socialism has coem to become the norm in the majorty of societies today. Anywhere where the government allows private industries to participate in the market place, while ALSO providing a comparable good or service, you have socialism!

When you attend a Public school, or in some areas take Public transportation, or see the erection of Public works projects, there's a government arm in the economy. When you also allow for the competition or purchasing of these entities (Private school, Private transit, Private works firms, you have a private non- governmental element, thats socialism!

Socialism isn't dead, in fact its far from it. In nations such as Germany, japan, denmark, sweden, russia, china, britain, france, mexico, brazil, south africa, canada, the USA, we see both private and public firms participating in the economy... so your assertion is wrong, however to the degree that socialism plays a role in shaping policy in the public & private realms and how the improve the living standards of citizens varies widely and could do with more improvement.

Public works have predated socialist ideology by thousands of years. While the nations you mentioned do have certain aspects that could be considered socialist, the large majority of the economy is based on capitalism. If European nations were more socialist than capitalist, they would not be in the EU, the text book example of an organization designed for free trade capitalism.

The same could be said for socialism, it too has a lineage traced to ancient primal beginnings of human rationale. There is no 'could' in this factor. They have government influence in the financing, operations, and regulating of their economies and social aspects of their citizens' lives including healthcare, education, and many other facets of life, and again freed trade and socialism have no correlation. The presence of free trade does not retreat from the economic model most of these countries adhere to. One is a system of trade while the other is a mechanism for trade...

[New Grestin]

The key is realizing that socialism itself has failed, but we can look at its ideals and see how they can be used to get radical capitalism under control and back into the hands of consumers and citizens, rather than a corporate hegemony.

That was essentially U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders' social democratic position when he was running for president last year. The problem with that approach, IMO, is that, if capitalists are allowed to remain in power, they will find some way to maintain their economic hegemony.

That's always going to happen under a capitalist system. Inevitably the upper class will seek ways to maintain their hold over power and capital. They key is maintaining a public class consciousness and being aware of that. If we are wise to the tricks that these people pull, then we can start working to bring power back to the actual citizens and not those who see the world as their personal piggy bank to smash.

The reality is that the entire planet is economically intertwined in the capitalist market system. To avoid that for purely ideological reasons is to damn one's country to becoming a second-rate economic power and risk outside manipulation by those unwilling to control capitalism's worst urges like neo-colonialism.

The capitalists won the ideological battle when Communism became synonymous with Stalinist authoritarianism. The more dignified option is to work within the system to try and improve it with an outside mindset, rather than to subscribe to old-school Marxist philosophy of world revolution which is, at this point, unfortunately highly unlikely.

[The Christonian Imperium]

Socialism: What do we do now? Die

That's a tad bit extreme.

Nah I'm being nice

[Greater Miami Shores]

If real communists and socialist don't allow multi political parties, than how do they respect other persons different political views? How do they respect other persons different economic, political and social views?

[Shefkland]

The claim that socialism has failed is ridiculous. Failed at what? In what way? Is that an actual goal of socialism that it supposedly failed at? Is this an intrinsic failure or have specific instances failed in their own ways? Why did they fail that way and what made them fail in that particular way and not another? If one element that led to a specific kind of failure was missing, which is why a different kind of failure occurred, then it is in fact possible to correct that flaw. Can all flaws be corrected in this manner? Can sufficient flaws be corrected in this manner for it to function?

There's a lot of variables involved in proclaiming that socialism has failed.

[The Snazzylands]

For the most part i agree with this, but to claim socilaism has failed is base less. Honestly, with all the claims of vioence and land seizure, im picking up that people are confucing socialism with its more radical sibling communism. Socialism has coem to become the norm in the majorty of societies today. Anywhere where the government allows private industries to participate in the market place, while ALSO providing a comparable good or service, you have socialism!

When you attend a Public school, or in some areas take Public transportation, or see the erection of Public works projects, there's a government arm in the economy. When you also allow for the competition or purchasing of these entities (Private school, Private transit, Private works firms, you have a private non- governmental element, thats socialism!

Socialism isn't dead, in fact its far from it. In nations such as Germany, japan, denmark, sweden, russia, china, britain, france, mexico, brazil, south africa, canada, the USA, we see both private and public firms participating in the economy... so your assertion is wrong, however to the degree that socialism plays a role in shaping policy in the public & private realms and how the improve the living standards of citizens varies widely and could do with more improvement.

Ah, the classic "socialism is when the government does stuff" meme. Definitely one of my favorites.

If real communists and socialist don't allow multi political parties, than how do they respect other persons different political views? How do they respect other persons different economic, political and social views?

You think people within the same political party don't hold different viewpoints or disagree with each other?

[Hakons]

In the case of democratic nations, capitalism remains in power because the majority of the voters are in favor of capitalism. Obviously large corporations try to influence the process, but democracies are largely capitalist because most people prefer capitalism.

People don't prefer capitalism, they prefer quality of life. Now that capitalism allows for quality of life, but allows for the greater potential for them to also suffer is the issue. Socialism addresses the gaps in the capitalist platform while allowing that capital generating mechanism.
However, people neglect the fact that the state plays in allowing capitalism... and by default are too dumb or misinformed to support socialism

And there are your true colors. Oh, the stupid masses, too dumb to know what's best for them. If only everyone were so enlightened as *I*, than everything would be better. I know what's best for them, not themselves.

[Greater Miami Shores]

For the most part i agree with this, but to claim socilaism has failed is base less. Honestly, with all the claims of vioence and land seizure, im picking up that people are confucing socialism with its more radical sibling communism. Socialism has coem to become the norm in the majorty of societies today. Anywhere where the government allows private industries to participate in the market place, while ALSO providing a comparable good or service, you have socialism!

When you attend a Public school, or in some areas take Public transportation, or see the erection of Public works projects, there's a government arm in the economy. When you also allow for the competition or purchasing of these entities (Private school, Private transit, Private works firms, you have a private non- governmental element, thats socialism!

Socialism isn't dead, in fact its far from it. In nations such as Germany, japan, denmark, sweden, russia, china, britain, france, mexico, brazil, south africa, canada, the USA, we see both private and public firms participating in the economy... so your assertion is wrong, however to the degree that socialism plays a role in shaping policy in the public & private realms and how the improve the living standards of citizens varies widely and could do with more improvement.

Ah, the classic "socialism is when the government does stuff" meme. Definitely one of my favorites.

If real communists and socialist don't allow multi political parties, than how do they respect other persons different political views? How do they respect other persons different economic, political and social views?

You think people within the same political party don't hold different viewpoints or disagree with each other?

lol, in all communists socialist nations, as it has been practiced all over the world, the capitalist political party leaders and supporters, as well as others, have been executed, banned, thrown in prision and in exile. They have not respected those who disagree with the communist socialist ideology.

[Saiwania]

Socialism doesn't work all that well as an economic system. Take Cuba's economy as an example, it is full of empty business establishments with too many employees and empty shelves. The typical scene is that employees wait for food deliveries from the Cuban government and put in their 8 hours so they can go home. They get paid exactly the same whether they serve only 1 plate of food, or 50 plates. So the incentives are to not be productive or efficient. Taxi drivers in Cuba get paid more than doctors or engineers because their salary isn't set by the state, they're allowed to engage in some form of private enterprise. The average monthly salary of a Cuban is only $20.

Because the command economy of Cuba isn't sufficient for meeting people's needs, most Cubans have a black market job (that is private sector) on top of their official job in order to survive.

[THE UNITED FEDERATION OF ALGORENIA]

For the United States, the best approach would be to start small with big ambitions. To me, social democracy is quite silly because as a libertarian socialist I believe that it maintains the hierarchal structure of capitalism. But in a nation like the US where anyone five cents to the left is basically considered a communist, we need more moderate policies like these to plant the seeds of socialist thought again. Bernie Sanders was great because he was able to galvanise support for social democratic policies in a country where they were missing for many decades. That is the starting point where you get people interested in the ideas that vaguely resemble true socialism. Then the red taboo will vanish, allowing young radicals to become engendered towards leftist positions via Marx, Lenin, Luxemburg, etc now that they live in a society that is pseudo-socialistic. For once people realise social democracy works (relatively) well, then they will explore more proper ideas. We see this now where socialist groups have seen increasing membership due to the excitement generated by the Bernie campaign.

Then what? If social democracy is the first step, what next? That is a tricky question for me as I live in Scotland, although the best would be to see which leftist tendency becomes predominant, as no economic doctrine fits every single country perfectly. Hopefully then we should move in the direction of real socialism after that,

Bernie sanders got chewed up for calling himself a "democratic socialist", if anything besides the gap between economic ideology and reality, the main reason socialism wouldn't suffice in america is because of the two- party political system. The democratic and republic tents are too big and to voracious when it comes to eating up the ideas of small 3rd left and right wing parties, note why the green party was considered a laughing stock and wasted vote in 2016 by the Democratic party. If anything, socialism in america has a better chance of gaining political capital by building support by working in the local communities, helping people, building up a sense of legitimacy to their campaigns, and placing more emphasis on tangibility; goals that can be achieved and constructed upon to show the american populace that they're an actual force to consider.

They also need to take advantage of the dearth US politicians have in going to the youth in universities and colleges and serving as a platform for them. Republicans and even Democrats shy away from that segment of society who are often the ones who actually WANT to get involved, but then want to cry and complain about low turn out rates among the youth...

[Shefkland]

lol, in all communists socialist nations, as it has been practiced all over the world, the capitalist political party leaders and supporters, as well as others, have been executed, banned, thrown in prision and in exile. They have not respected those who disagree with the communist socialist ideology.

As opposed to communists in capitalist nations, who have always been treated with respect and dignity by the government. There's no such thing as freedom other than freedom for one class and oppression for all others.

[The Snazzylands]

Ah, the classic "socialism is when the government does stuff" meme. Definitely one of my favorites.


You think people within the same political party don't hold different viewpoints or disagree with each other?

lol, in all communists socialist nations, as it has been practiced all over the world, the capitalist political party leaders and supporters, as well as others, have been executed, banned, thrown in prision and in exile. They have not respected those who disagree with the communist socialist ideology.

I don't know how you think war works, but when you have a political party that openly sympathizes with hostile powers, you're expected to do something about it.
But I'm not excusing the kind of intra-party repression that became popular with governments who went along with the Marxism-Leninism fad.

[The New Sea Territory]

Leave your discredited ideology in the dust bin of history?

>Christian traditionalist
>Calls other ideologies discredited

[Hakons]

Public works have predated socialist ideology by thousands of years. While the nations you mentioned do have certain aspects that could be considered socialist, the large majority of the economy is based on capitalism. If European nations were more socialist than capitalist, they would not be in the EU, the text book example of an organization designed for free trade capitalism.

The same could be said for socialism, it too has a lineage traced to ancient primal beginnings of human rationale. There is no 'could' in this factor. They have government influence in the financing, operations, and regulating of their economies and social aspects of their citizens' lives including healthcare, education, and many other facets of life, and again freed trade and socialism have no correlation. The presence of free trade does not retreat from the economic model most of these countries adhere to. One is a system of trade while the other is a mechanism for trade...

Socialism, as a coherent ideology, was developed in the mid 1800s. Public works were first developed in the first human civilizations, say 5,000 B.C.

The nation's mentioned are most definitely not socialist. There is no abolition of private property. Most industries are not nationalized. The majority people still work for wages that they use to purchase goods. Property has not been distributed equally. The workers have not seized the means of production. Most obvious of all, none of those governments say they are a socialist government.

[Greater Miami Shores]

lol, in all communists socialist nations, as it has been practiced all over the world, the capitalist political party leaders and supporters, as well as others, have been executed, banned, thrown in prision and in exile. They have not respected those who disagree with the communist socialist ideology.

As opposed to communists in capitalist nations, who have always been treated with respect and dignity by the government. There's no such thing as freedom other than freedom for one class and oppression for all others.

Compare your statement to the European Communist and socialist parties who have political seats in Parliament. Compared that to banning non communist, and non socialist parties and their supporters, excuting them, throwing them in prison, and exile.

[The New Sea Territory]

Snip

I don't think any form of revolution is possible at this point in time (though I guess it could happen in a third world country but even then it's a coin toss on whether we get a Tito or a Stalin). The biggest obstacle to that approach it that the only modern "Communist" country with any kind of power is China and they are the exact opposite of Communist. If a revolution somehow happened despite a century of Anti-Socialist propaganda and it threatens either trade or a company's market everyone including the Chinese would try to tear it down.

The point is to have neither a Tito or a Stalin, Chinese socialism or a Communist dictatorship.....but to, through our organizational methods, prevent these from developing and seizing the means of production.

[Hakons]

Leave your discredited ideology in the dust bin of history?

>Christian traditionalist
>Calls other ideologies discredited

Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world and is set to expand rapidly with the population explosion of Africa and a large missionary movement in China.

Off topic questions will get off topic answers.

[The New Sea Territory]

>Christian traditionalist
>Calls other ideologies discredited

Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world and is set to expand rapidly with the population explosion of Africa and a large missionary movement in China.

Off topic questions will get off topic answers.

It's not a question.

[GlobalControl]

Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world and is set to expand rapidly with the population explosion of Africa and a large missionary movement in China.

Off topic questions will get off topic answers.

It's not a question.

It is irrelevant.

[Greater Miami Shores]

True communism or socialism sounds nice and democratic, but the problem is once all the means of production are in the hands of the people, they are really in the hands of the government that oversees it, and their cant be any opposition to anything, Their by creating an automatic dictatorship. Even if it were really in the hands of the people collectively, their cant be any opposition to anything by individuals, their by creating an automatic dictatorship. It is like who is on first, who is on second, first base.

[Kubra]

It's not a question.

It is irrelevant.

still not a question tho

[Shefkland]

As opposed to communists in capitalist nations, who have always been treated with respect and dignity by the government. There's no such thing as freedom other than freedom for one class and oppression for all others.

Compare your statement to the European Communist and socialist parties who have political seats in Parliament. Compared that to banning non communist socialist parties and their supporters, excuting them, throwing them in prison, and exile.

Bans
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... -communism

Execution
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/asia/indo ... index.html

Prison and Exile
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Emma-Goldman

[Neo Balka]

Banning communists and exiling them is hardly the end of the world.

[Shefkland]

Banning communists and exiling them is hardly the end of the world.

Kind of my point. It's the expected thing to be honest, and when communists come to power they do the same.

[THE UNITED FEDERATION OF ALGORENIA]

The same could be said for socialism, it too has a lineage traced to ancient primal beginnings of human rationale. There is no 'could' in this factor. They have government influence in the financing, operations, and regulating of their economies and social aspects of their citizens' lives including healthcare, education, and many other facets of life, and again freed trade and socialism have no correlation. The presence of free trade does not retreat from the economic model most of these countries adhere to. One is a system of trade while the other is a mechanism for trade...

Socialism, as a coherent ideology, was developed in the mid 1800s. Public works were first developed in the first human civilizations, say 5,000 B.C.

The nation's mentioned are most definitely not socialist. There is no abolition of private property. Most industries are not nationalized. The majority people still work for wages that they use to purchase goods. Property has not been distributed equally. The workers have not seized the means of production. Most obvious of all, none of those governments say they are a socialist government.

Cool, just totally neglect the ideas of Zoroastrianism which served as a basis for subsequent socialist scholars right... anyways,
the nations definitely ARE socialist, you can look at factors including government involvement in healthcare where they have one- payer systems, the levels of public transit, the regulations on private sectors, and the role the public sector plays in education, the role the states plays in financing and subsidizing industries such as production, energy, agriculture, transport, and arms manufacturing....

Socialism doesn't disallow or seize private property or seek equal property (again), it allows both the competition between private and public entities and people to own their own property and businesses, it only gives the state more involvement in regulating and setting the involvement of how both sides operate in the economic and social theaters... And the wages they garner from that are spent on goods, that's a truism statement.

And Yes, some of those countries don;t acknowledge being socialist, just how North Korea denies its a human's rights violator, threat to global stability, or a failed state.... the US following it being the "Champion of Capitalism" would take a ideological blow if it came to the realization that with public housing, national businesses, medicaid and medicare (which take up the majority of the federal budget) it claimed being socialist. In Europe they're also export- market drive, but champion their socialistic societies as well. the reality still stands that socialism is a powerful influence in all those countries societies and by extension the globe