NationStates

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:14 pm**

Katganistan wrote:
Potthan wrote:No.

Delusion? Or "alternate truth"?

Okay Kelly Ann slow your roll with the "alternative facts"

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:15 pm**

Insaeldor wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Delusion? Or "alternate truth"?

Okay Kelly Ann slow your roll with the "alternative facts"

Slow your insistence that up is down, black is white, and left is right.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:24 pm**

Katganistan wrote:
Potthan wrote:No.

Delusion? Or "alternate truth"?

Alternate delusion

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:30 pm**

Just to escape for a moment from alternate truths (well - sort of).

It is on the topic of hate, though.

If you value your sanity, and your eyes, and your brain, do not scroll through the twitter feed on the tag #charliegard.

Given that most of the feed is about a) a child who is dying of a terminal condition, b) the parents of said child or c) a hospital that cares primarily for sick infants and children, I would never, ever have thought you could encounter so much vile, so much bitter hatred and abuse and so much god-awful examples of humanity as there are on that feed.

I have always been a great proponent of social media for bringing the world together, but fuck me - if this is what humanity and social media can produce about a hospital that cares for sick children, and about a child and his parents going through the most awful experience of their lives.... quite frankly we need the aliens to come and blow this planet up, right now. Or the sun to explode.

For some reason, given the amount of saccharine bullshit that gets spewed all over twitter every time someone dies, or something blows up, or a bus full of nuns runs off a cliff, I was kind of expecting messages of prayer, of love, of best wishes, of hope. You know - the usual kind of shit twitter spouts. Virtue signalling and all that BS. Anything but what there actually was.

I think the parts where people accusing the hospital of murdering children are especially noteworthy, since that truly makes you wonder what kind of individual thought "that's what I want my legacy to be - accusing a hospital of murdering four children. Yes - that's how I want to be remembered".

(There is the possibility I am taking this far more personally than I should, and for that I apologise. However I was admitted to GOSH when I was two days old, and spent a fair part of my childhood under their care, including one lot of open heart surgery when I was five. I, quite literally, owe my life to Great Ormand Street, and am not one to sit back when shit-for-brains cunts who know nothing about a situation decide to post crap on twitter abusing and accusing Doctors and Nurses of the most heinous things I can imagine.

However, I will try to reign in my anger and not see if I can find someone to crash Twitter's servers, and/or publicly shame those responsible for being dicks).

See - this is why you should not let hate take over your life. Because it does you no good

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:00 pm**

I left reddit because of the horrifyingly strong anti-right rhetoric on there. The fact that leftists have the audacity to complain about bullying and insults from the right is outright stupid.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:02 pm**

Damverland wrote:I left reddit because of the horrifyingly strong anti-right rhetoric on there. The fact that leftists have the audacity to complain about bullying and insults from the right is outright stupid.

Because clearly the fact they're complaining about it from one side means they're OK with it from the other.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:07 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
Damverland wrote:I left reddit because of the horrifyingly strong anti-right rhetoric on there. The fact that leftists have the audacity to complain about bullying and insults from the right is outright stupid.

Because clearly the fact they're complaining about it from one side means they're OK with it from the other.

Huh. For whatever reason, I do not associate reddit with the left wing. Have I been wrong all these years?

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:09 pm**

Calladan wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Because clearly the fact they're complaining about it from one side means they're OK with it from the other.

Huh. For whatever reason, I do not associate reddit with the left wing. Have I been wrong all these years?

Well, I was on reddit for four years. Trust me, it's the biggest left wing website on the internet, and that isn't a compliment.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:20 pm**

I hate when people use terms such as "hate", it's a sophistic argument that's used to automatically invalidate anything they disagree with.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:25 pm**

The Plutonian Empire wrote:Honestly though, if one can't afford a decent quality of life for their child, that's another ground for abortion. So it's either two choices for that: stay miserable and poor and broke all your life, or resort to abortion. A few minutes of barbarism, much as it sucks, seems a bit more fair than a lifetime of absolute misery.

In that case, I have a suggestion.

We should take all members of the 1% in this country, line them up and have them shot, and seize their wealth and property and spread it for the betterment of the lower classes.

Maybe a month or a year of barbarism probably. But what's that compared to the lifetimes it would improve? Seems more than moral in your line of thought.

The Plutonian Empire wrote:.

Unless of course, the mother is a bitch who can't keep her hands off drugs and alcohol for 9 months like the lady who spawned me. Then yeah, either abort the poor kid or give them up for adoption.

So you don't believe your life has been worthwhile? You've never found happiness or purpose because of your mother?

The Plutonian Empire wrote:
This is why as a pansexual I avoid church even though I'm Christian. ~~TBF I'm a very bad Christian and I'll likely go to Hell.~~ Not liking abortion isn't automatically hateful, to be honest it's literally the murder of babies to those who are against it, so even though I'm pro-choice for other people, I still see it as killing babies, and I never will do it myself because there's no way I'd ever bear the guilt of that.

I admit, I still see abortion that way too, but I've come to realize that not all women will want a child, and will probably consider it more as a parasite than as a life to mother. Plus, not everyone has sexy genes too, and will unfortunately pass on stuff like schizophrenia, inheritable mental illnesses, histories of cancer or mental retardation, etc.

If you think it's acceptable at all, then no you don't actually see it that way. Or, you believe the value of a baby is relative to how much they're wanted.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:56 pm**

West Phoenicia wrote:My concern for Minoa is, if you are receiving mental health triggers due to 2 fair elections. Posting on a site like this may not assist with your personal well being and you should seek help from a professional that can assist. Because in life you will come across multitudes who do not agree with you and they are allowed to think how they like. Just like you.

And instead of trying to rally hate for hate. Take a leaf from the most influential man in history.

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.-

I do not believe in Christianity, and I find it incredibly offensive to hear that I should love those who want to persecute me: that rationally makes no sense. That will just embolden the enemy. I have felt increasingly inclined to consider suicide over the last few days.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:08 pm**

Minoa wrote:
West Phoenicia wrote:My concern for Minoa is, if you are receiving mental health triggers due to 2 fair elections. Posting on a site like this may not assist with your personal well being and you should seek help from a professional that can assist. Because in life you will come across multitudes who do not agree with you and they are allowed to think how they like. Just like you.

And instead of trying to rally hate for hate. Take a leaf from the most influential man in history.

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.-

I do not believe in Christianity, and I find it incredibly offensive to hear that I should love those who want to persecute me: that rationally makes no sense. I have felt increasingly inclined to consider suicide over the last few days.

I'm sorry for what you've had to endure. I truly am. But please reconsider; you are an invaluable human being, no one can replace you.

You might think that you're alone, but you're not. There are people that love you and would be heartbroken and changed forever if they lost you.

Politics may seem grim, but it's temporary. An awful temporary, but temporary none the less. You can't react to that with an act of permanence. Take it from someone who's struggled from depression for years, and has had similar passing dark thoughts as you have, and has experienced the fallout from a suicide.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:16 pm**

Yeah there's a lot of things I don't like in this world, lot of things I really dislike, mostly though I'm mostly resigned to the fact that the world sucks and it's just going to get worse. So really I don't feel much anymore... kind of sad really.

Damverland wrote:
Calladan wrote:
Huh. For whatever reason, I do not associate reddit with the left wing. Have I been wrong all these years?

Well, I was on reddit for four years. Trust me, it's the biggest left wing website on the internet, and that isn't a compliment.

The problem with reddit is that the upvote, block, and autoban feature has turned almost the entire into a series of group thinking communities where the majority is always right. There there's a lot less debate because the majority will hide, ban, or suppress whatever they don't like in their boards.

So depending on where you go on Reddit you either end up places that are wholly under the control of the left or the right with very little middle ground. And these groups don't mix, partly because the left wing people automatically ban anyone who ever posts in a right wing board... where as a right wing board will ban any leftwing person who comes to their board saying anything they don't like.

Reddit is a giant series of Gated Communities of groups of people who all hate their neighbors.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:04 pm**

Great Tawil wrote:I'll be honest, I originally left NS due to the large amount of right-wingers. I just didn't feel welcome here.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:33 pm**

Salus Maior wrote:
The Plutonian Empire wrote:Honestly though, if one can't afford a decent quality of life for their child, that's another ground for abortion. So it's either two choices for that: stay miserable and poor and broke all your life, or resort to abortion. A few minutes of barbarism, much as it sucks, seems a bit more fair than a lifetime of absolute misery.

In that case, I have a suggestion.

We should take all members of the 1% in this country, line them up and have them shot, and seize their wealth and property and spread it for the betterment of the lower classes.

Maybe a month or a year of barbarism probably. But what's that compared to the lifetimes it would improve? Seems more than moral in your line of thought.

Can't argue with that. I'm a "godless commie" in their eyes, so...

The Plutonian Empire wrote:.

Unless of course, the mother is a bitch who can't keep her hands off drugs and alcohol for 9 months like the lady who spawned me. Then yeah, either abort the poor kid or give them up for adoption.

So you don't believe your life has been worthwhile? You've never found happiness or purpose because of your mother?

Bio-mother. The lady who adopted me when I was 2, SHE is my mother. Regardless, that is my logic, yes. Growing up, being regularly segragated with the mental cripple crowd who are far lower functioning than I am by the system took a huge hit to my self esteem. As much as I am high functioning, and my own guardian, I am ultimately still a mental cripple. My mouth is the stereotypical drool factory, and nothing except gleeking comes out thanks to my self awareness and ability to swallow. I avoid pictures of myself from high school, because of just how obvious my "permanent retard face" used to be before I had reconstructive jaw surgery and gained weight. Knowing just how rigged the world is against those with special needs, it is just not worth it to not abort them, unless you want them to have the same shitty quality of life like mine.

As for my happiness or purpose in life? Edit: I have nothing anymore. The worldbuilding project that my NS nation is a part of is literally the only thing thats keeping me alive. The feelings of pure hopelessness I've had the past several months I would not wish on anyone.

The Plutonian Empire wrote:

I admit, I still see abortion that way too, but I've come to realize that not all women will want a child, and will probably consider it more as a parasite than as a life to mother. Plus, not everyone has sexy genes too, and will unfortunately pass on stuff like schizophrenia, inheritable mental illnesses, histories of cancer or mental retardation, etc.

If you think it's acceptable at all, then no you don't actually see it that way. Or, you believe the value of a baby is relative to how much they're wanted.

The problem with the pro-life crowd, is that very few of them, if any, bother to think of the welfare of the kid AFTER they're born. How many kids have been saved from abortion, only to be neglected, abused, or sent to the wayside by the very same people who supposedly espouse their perfect value as a living being?

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:19 pm**

While OP, my views and yours may be somewhat diametrically opposed (on abortion, certainly), I certainly can relate on some level to learning how to be more merciful to others. Because that is the only way to defeat hate, with mercy. We live in a world that is becoming increasingly politically divided, and that is driven apart by the mass media and by emotional appeals to demonize those who disagree with you. Thus, we can really only counter such attitudes by seeking to be kind when possible.

While my views on abortion have always been consistent, my approach has not been. I used to be rather vitriolic toward people who disagree with me, and now I have learned, with some guidance from teachers and from good people, how to consider others in a compassionate manner, rather than being entirely accusatory. Of course, I would be a hypocrite to say I am sweet and friendly 100% of the time. That is hardly the case. But it is what you and I can strive to be for others.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:44 pm**

I find it odd that the OP started a thread with a theme of hate being bad (sort of) and self-discovery making one a less hateful person ... but is now willing to go on with debating abortion. Knowing surely, that abortion is one of the topics most likely to arouse hatred in the Generals.

Maybe the thread is really about nostalgia?

could I say the one thing I miss more than anything all the way back to 2005, is pages full of quote pyramids? I believe the quote pyramids, at cost only of taking up screen space, had the great virtue of showing who had been in a strand of the thread before, and what each argument made previously was against, and they prevented mindless repetition, and showcased the best one-on-one debates. Cutting pyramids so short has made General more of a chat site than a debate forum. Only posts on the last page or two get replies, and only two posters with great willpower (or personal rivalry towards each other) can keep up a one-on-one debate without being drowned out by shallow points based on their use of one word, or of an example chosen to illustrate their broader argument.

If General has gotten dumber overall, it's ultimately the fault of the users who post here. No rules or format system can make good debate out of bad debaters, or good humour out of bad comedians. But the (overly short) pyramids have encouraged a form of very shallow one-liner "debate" without which many bad posters would have no reason to come here, and it's thwarted good debating style (one-on-one for page after page) making those debaters more likely to leave. Of all the format changes over the years, the culling of the pyramids has done the most harm.

Even one more level on every pyramid would help. One more level would show whether a strand is the continuation of a one-on-one, or not. Ideally, there would be a default depth of six or so, to the pyramids displayed, and users could then customize what they see to be shorter or longer pyramids. I guess that would load the server pretty heavily though. I think long ago I suggested customizable pyramid depth and was told it was too heavy ... come to think of it, just about every suggestion I've ever made got shot down as "too much for the server" meanwhile all sorts of pointless eye candy has been added regardless of server load, ultimately I think it's because I'm just a Generalite and what I think would be good for NS is just what might be good for General, and doesn't account what gameplayers and roleplayers want. I admit that animations for their coat-of-arms, or short pyramids for the long diplomatic posts, probably suit their role-playing uses, and they shouldn't be denied because I find those things bad for General.

The timewarp I don't miss at all. Sometimes it would be hilarious, but far more often it was just confusing. It also got new users into trouble, as they'd often think it was the timewarping poster themselves who somehow "cheated" to get their post out of order.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:56 pm**

The Plutonian Empire wrote:As for my happiness or purpose in life? Edit: I have nothing anymore. The worldbuilding project that my NS nation is a part of is literally the only thing thats keeping me alive. The feelings of pure hopelessness I've had the past several months I would not wish on anyone.

Sadly, I am going through the same situation, plus I have a massive backlog of things I want to do, but unable to do so due to fatigue and yes, despair. I should be doing the things I need to do soon, because at present I am in a perilous state, living in a country where the stereotype of benefits claimants being "lazy people" prevails.

At best, I probably only have 7 to 12 years left to live, I don't want to have to bother with the fear of retiring in the same situation as I am now. Maybe I won't make it to 2020 if I remain in the UK, given that I have lost a lot of appetite, stopped sleeping properly, and increasingly self-harmed myself over the last few months.

That is the devastating impact of racial hatred.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:01 pm**

Minoa wrote:
The Plutonian Empire wrote:As for my happiness or purpose in life? Edit: I have nothing anymore. The worldbuilding project that my NS nation is a part of is literally the only thing thats keeping me alive. The feelings of pure hopelessness I've had the past several months I would not wish on anyone.

Sadly, I am going through the same situation, plus I have a massive backlog of things I want to do, but unable to do so due to fatigue and yes, despair. I should be doing the things I need to do soon, because at present I am in a perilous state, living in a country where the stereotype of benefits claimants being "lazy people" prevails.

At best, I probably only have 7 to 12 years left to live, I don't want to have to bother with the fear of retiring in the same situation as I am now. Maybe I won't make it to 2020, given that I have lost a lot of appetite, stopped sleeping properly, and increasingly self-harmed myself over the last few months.

That is the devastating impact of racial hatred.

There's a stickied thread on the first page of General, and you should heed the advice in it. Posting about your personal vulnerability, even in a thread which feels "safe", you know makes you even more vulnerable to people who give bad advice for malicious reasons.

Keeping my own advice to a minimum, I'd say "not sleeping properly" is the first of the problems you should address. Getting a full night's sleep never does any harm, and not getting it often does.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:44 pm**

AiliailiA wrote:
Minoa wrote:Sadly, I am going through the same situation, plus I have a massive backlog of things I want to do, but unable to do so due to fatigue and yes, despair. I should be doing the things I need to do soon, because at present I am in a perilous state, living in a country where the stereotype of benefits claimants being "lazy people" prevails.

At best, I probably only have 7 to 12 years left to live, I don't want to have to bother with the fear of retiring in the same situation as I am now. Maybe I won't make it to 2020, given that I have lost a lot of appetite, stopped sleeping properly, and increasingly self-harmed myself over the last few months.

That is the devastating impact of racial hatred.

There's a stickied thread on the first page of General, and you should heed the advice in it. Posting about your personal vulnerability, even in a thread which feels "safe", you know makes you even more vulnerable to people who give bad advice for malicious reasons.

Keeping my own advice to a minimum, I'd say "not sleeping properly" is the first of the problems you should address. Getting a full night's sleep never does any harm, and not getting it often does.

I agree with this. A good night's sleep every night will help one to think clearly, to have a better mood, and to handle stress more efficiently. Also, eating three balanced meals a day, and being sure to treat yourself to the small things every now and then. Like a good cup of hot cocoa and some nice blankets. ^w^

Furthermore, Min, if you are self-harming, cutting and such, please call a suicide hotline and get help. Or if you are binging and purging, get help. There are people who are willing to help you pick yourself back up, but you've gotta make that phone-call to start.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:56 pm**

Minoa wrote:
The Plutonian Empire wrote:As for my happiness or purpose in life? Edit: I have nothing anymore. The worldbuilding project that my NS nation is a part of is literally the only thing thats keeping me alive. The feelings of pure hopelessness I've had the past several months I would not wish on anyone.

Sadly, I am going through the same situation, plus I have a massive backlog of things I want to do, but unable to do so due to fatigue and yes, despair. I should be doing the things I need to do soon, because at present I am in a perilous state, living in a country where the stereotype of benefits claimants being "lazy people" prevails.

At best, I probably only have 7 to 12 years left to live, I don't want to have to bother with the fear of retiring in the same situation as I am now. Maybe I won't make it to 2020 if I remain in the UK, given that I have lost a lot of appetite, stopped sleeping properly, and increasingly self-harmed myself over the last few months.

That is the devastating impact of racial hatred.

I hardly know you from the computer thread, but I didn't know you were going through such a rough time.

I'm really sorry, Minoa.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:01 pm**

Being more to the right-of-center than anything else, I have to admit, OP, that you're not a unique breed of individual around these parts.

I, too, wish there were more civil discussions in which we all would get along. I, too, have had hard times with being vulnerable. It is that vulnerability that drove me to NS in the first place.

Now? Now I am in a better position, personally, so I am not as active in NSG as I was in the past. However, I still got a lot to do. I still have to, also, build my nation to the way I want it. That will be my last project in NS before pulling the plug on NSG and go back to nation roleplay.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:05 pm**

The Plutonian Empire wrote:As for my happiness or purpose in life? Edit: I have nothing anymore. The worldbuilding project that my NS nation is a part of is literally the only thing thats keeping me alive. The feelings of pure hopelessness I've had the past several months I would not wish on anyone.

The problem with the pro-life crowd, is that very few of them, if any, bother to think of the welfare of the kid AFTER they're born. How many kids have been saved from abortion, only to be neglected, abused, or sent to the wayside by the very same people who supposedly espouse their perfect value as a living being?

I am so sorry about what you've had to endure. While I can't say I've been through the same, I have experienced things I'd call hopelessness and deep sadness and depression, and if you ever need someone to talk to, I will gladly give a listening ear.

Yes, that's my greatest criticism as well. The problem is that most of the people who would have Pro-Life sentiments (at least in the U.S) also tend to have opposition to any form of Socialism or institutionalized healthcare. You know, Republicans. They expect children to be born and then everything's fine. I know differently though. If a pro-life victory is to be achieved, there needs to be an overhaul in how we interact with the lower classes and mothers in general.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:06 pm**

AiliailiA wrote:I find it odd that the OP started a thread with a theme of hate being bad (sort of) and self-discovery making one a less hateful person ... but is now willing to go on with debating abortion. Knowing surely, that abortion is one of the topics most likely to arouse hatred in the Generals.

Maybe the thread is really about nostalgia?

could I say the one thing I miss more than anything all the way back to 2005, is pages full of quote pyramids? I believe the quote pyramids, at cost only of taking up screen space, had the great virtue of showing who had been in a strand of the thread before, and what each argument made previously was against, and they prevented mindless repetition, and showcased the best one-on-one debates. Cutting pyramids so short has made General more of a chat site than a debate forum. Only posts on the last page or two get replies, and only two posters with great willpower (or personal rivalry towards each other) can keep up a one-on-one debate without being drowned out by shallow points based on their use of one word, or of an example chosen to illustrate their broader argument.

If General has gotten dumber overall, it's ultimately the fault of the users who post here. No rules or format system can make good debate out of bad debaters, or good humour out of bad comedians. But the (overly short) pyramids have encouraged a form of very shallow one-liner "debate" without which many bad posters would have no reason to come here, and it's thwarted good debating style (one-on-one for page after page) making those debaters more likely to leave. Of all the format changes over the years, the culling of the pyramids has done the most harm.

Even one more level on every pyramid would help. One more level would show whether a strand is the continuation of a one-on-one, or not. Ideally, there would be a default depth of six or so, to the pyramids displayed, and users could then customize what they see to be shorter or longer pyramids. I guess that would load the server pretty heavily though. I think long ago I suggested customizable pyramid depth and was told it was too heavy ... come to think of it, just about every suggestion I've ever made got shot down as "too much for the server" meanwhile all sorts of pointless eye candy has been added regardless of server load, ultimately I think it's because I'm just a Generalite and what I think would be good for NS is just what might be good for General, and doesn't account what gameplayers and roleplayers want. I admit that animations for their coat-of-arms, or short pyramids for the long diplomatic posts, probably suit their role-playing uses, and they shouldn't be denied because I find those things bad for General.

The timewarp I don't miss at all. Sometimes it would be hilarious, but far more often it was just confusing. It also got new users into trouble, as they'd often think it was the timewarping poster themselves who somehow "cheated" to get their post out of order.

I don't think the pyramid length has anything to do with the quality of debate.

I've gotten on one on ones here in which I have had really constructive conversations. But those have been rare and sparse. What matters is the thoughtfulness of response, not the manner in which the quote pyramid issue is addressed.

On that note, the one thing I can say has lowered the quality of debate has been the breaking down of quotes to one-or-two digestible liners. I really dislike the fact that people try to dissect a post without taking it all in context and trying to reply to the point it is being made, but rather hawk on small nitpicks for everyone to see how good they are at dismantling logic or whatever it is they are trying to do. Hence why, out of personal respect towards them and their points, I try to keep their quote as undisturbed as possible.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:21 pm**

The Feylands wrote:
Great Tawil wrote:Abortion isn't murder.
I bet you can't stand watching a movie of what it looks like or wouldn't object to having pictures of the remains of aborted babies around you. It's a truly barbaric murder of a small human being and nothing else.

As for burkas... reason number 1 to ban the burka isn't because of protection from terrorism (although that is a reason as well) but because it's part of an oppressive, fascist system that has no place in Europe or any other part of the civilized world just like publicly wearing a swastika.

I'm sorry, but as someone who has accumulated videos, books, and other medical reference materials, I don't see what watching a movie of an abortion being performed has anything to do with the real problems around abortion that push mothers to abort.

I've watched worse surgeries happen in video and photographs, and I know all about them from books. I don't think you understand, or will ever understand, that medical practice is not pretty. Sometimes people die, sometimes doctors have to be a person's executioner, not because they euthanize or kill the patient, but because they cannot save them because they don't have the resources to treat them. Sometimes, doctors have to perform gruesome surgeries on patients that leave them looking like freak shows, but they saved a life, so it's worth it. Medicine is glorified, and has always been, but it is always dirty. It is never pretty, ever. And people die on doctors and they get mutilated by doctors every day. Medicine, in other words, is barbaric, your attempts to sanitize the field of medicine except for the practices you apparently don't like, notwithstanding.

To come here and make an outrage out of an abortion, a simple operation that's not unlike any other operation out there, because it's not sanitized to your standards, is to entirely miss the point of abortion, and medical practice in general. There are legitimate reasons to oppose abortion, to say it is not sanitized enough to your sensibilities and is a barbaric practice is not one of them. If that is your objection all I have to say is, we all gotta die, and death is never pretty.

NationStates

A word on Hate...