It seems Israel's feelings supersede free speech

[Bakery Hill]

On the other hand former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir, among other key Israeli political figures, was the leader of a terrorist paramilitary called Lehi, aka the Stern Gang, that also collaborated with the Nazis, Mussolini and the Vichy regime against the Britsh. Middle Eastern politics is a wild ride.

True.
It's more damning for Palestine, though.

Perhaps, but because of the definition or rather tightening of the meaning of the term "Palestinian"? Anti-semitism itself was a term created by anti-semites.

Language is weird and if you want to slander the whole Palestinian people there's probably better ways to go about it tbh

[Proctopeo]

True.
It's more damning for Palestine, though.

Perhaps, but because of the definition or rather tightening of the meaning of the term "Palestinian"? Anti-semitism itself was a term created by anti-semites.

Language is weird and if you want to slander the whole Palestinian people there's probably better ways to go about it tbh

Because the guy who tightened the definition worked with the Nazis

Personally, I'm waiting for someone to call them "indigenous".

[Sanctissima]

Well, I'm a Zionist Jew-lover, so I see no problem with this. Israel's just playing its cards well. If other countries had a stronger backbone, they'd do the same.

Anyone who says otherwise is obviously an evil anti-Semitic Palestine-sympathizing Communist.

[Thermodolia]

Not really. Many Orthodox support Israel. From what I've seen it's the Conservative Jews that don't support Israel

They're called the Haredi. And Salus is right, they don't support it and only barely accept the authority of the State of Israel.

Orthodox =/= Haredi. Orthodox is a big group of which Modern Orthodox and Haredi are apart of. Yes Haredi Jews don't like Israel but Modern Orthodox aka Orthodox Jews do.

[Major-Tom]

"But now, a group of 43 senators — 29 Republicans and 14 Democrats — wants to implement a law that would make it a felony for Americans to support the international boycott against Israel, which was launched in protest of that country’s decades-old occupation of Palestine. The two primary sponsors of the bill are Democrat Ben Cardin of Maryland and Republican Rob Portman of Ohio. Perhaps the most shocking aspect is the punishment: Anyone guilty of violating the prohibitions will face a minimum civil penalty of $250,000 and a maximum criminal penalty of $1 million and 20 years in prison."

This concerns the shit out of me. 43 Senators? That's nearly half.

So let's say I criticize Israel, which would be justified, yes? If this law came into place, I'd face potentially 20 years in prison or utter bankruptcy. That is not democracy. That is not free speech. That is a ludicrous, utterly authoritarian idea proposed by the people in Congress who are so fervently Pro Israel that they care more about Israel than they do the US.

Israel's influence on US foreign and domestic policy is outrageous and it needs to stop.

[Pasong Tirad]

They're called the Haredi. And Salus is right, they don't support it and only barely accept the authority of the State of Israel.

Orthodox =/= Haredi. Orthodox is a big group of which Modern Orthodox and Haredi are apart of. Yes Haredi Jews don't like Israel but Modern Orthodox aka Orthodox Jews do.

For a second I forgot you're Jewish. I allow myself to be taken to school, then.

[Major-Tom]

You'd think Steve Bannon would put a stop to this.

His influence on the Trump administration is negligible and widely overstated, to be quite honest. Besides, this is the work of the US Congress, not the Trump administration.

[Thermodolia]

"But now, a group of 43 senators — 29 Republicans and 14 Democrats — wants to implement a law that would make it a felony for Americans to support the international boycott against Israel, which was launched in protest of that country’s decades-old occupation of Palestine. The two primary sponsors of the bill are Democrat Ben Cardin of Maryland and Republican Rob Portman of Ohio. Perhaps the most shocking aspect is the punishment: Anyone guilty of violating the prohibitions will face a minimum civil penalty of $250,000 and a maximum criminal penalty of $1 million and 20 years in prison."

This concerns the shit out of me. 43 Senators? That's nearly half.

So let's say I criticize Israel, which would be justified, yes? If this law came into place, I'd face potentially 20 years in prison or utter bankruptcy. That is not democracy. That is not free speech. That is a ludicrous, utterly authoritarian idea proposed by the people in Congress who are so fervently Pro Israel that they care more about Israel than they do the US.

Israel's influence on US foreign and domestic policy is outrageous and it needs to stop.

No you wouldn't. It's regulating interstate commerce so you would have to financially support an anti-Israel group in a that's located in a different state.

[Bakery Hill]

Perhaps, but because of the definition or rather tightening of the meaning of the term "Palestinian"? Anti-semitism itself was a term created by anti-semites.

Language is weird and if you want to slander the whole Palestinian people there's probably better ways to go about it tbh

Because the guy who tightened the definition worked with the Nazis

So did the people who founded the modern Israeli state. They also blew up buildings. The Israeli state is founded on terrorism. It was just a far more successful terrorism than what the Palestinians could manage. Despite this I'm not one of those leftists who are in favour of driving them into the say. Your nation was founded on slavery and genocide too.

Personally, I'm waiting for someone to call them "indigenous".

It's hard to call anyone in the Middle East indigenous, given how history's worked.

[Thermodolia]

You'd think Steve Bannon would put a stop to this.

His influence on the Trump administration is negligible and widely overstated, to be quite honest. Besides, this is the work of the US Congress, not the Trump administration.

And seeing how much support this has any veto by Trump would be overturned

[Major-Tom]

"But now, a group of 43 senators — 29 Republicans and 14 Democrats — wants to implement a law that would make it a felony for Americans to support the international boycott against Israel, which was launched in protest of that country’s decades-old occupation of Palestine. The two primary sponsors of the bill are Democrat Ben Cardin of Maryland and Republican Rob Portman of Ohio. Perhaps the most shocking aspect is the punishment: Anyone guilty of violating the prohibitions will face a minimum civil penalty of $250,000 and a maximum criminal penalty of $1 million and 20 years in prison."

This concerns the shit out of me. 43 Senators? That's nearly half.

So let's say I criticize Israel, which would be justified, yes? If this law came into place, I'd face potentially 20 years in prison or utter bankruptcy. That is not democracy. That is not free speech. That is a ludicrous, utterly authoritarian idea proposed by the people in Congress who are so fervently Pro Israel that they care more about Israel than they do the US.

Israel's influence on US foreign and domestic policy is outrageous and it needs to stop.

No you wouldn't. It's regulating interstate commerce so you would have to financially support an anti-Israel group in a that's located in a different state.

Fair enough. I didn't read far enough into that/hyperbole. I'm in another city, so I'm basically sitting at a coffee shop quickly browsing these forums.

As for the jailtime? Does that not seem ludicrous? I don't fervently hate Israel, and I personally don't think I'd boycott it. But if our members of Congress are willing to send people to jail for criticizing a country that takes and takes from us, I think that's indicative of a larger problem.

[Proctopeo]

Because the guy who tightened the definition worked with the Nazis

So did the people who founded the modern Israeli state. They also blew up buildings. The Israeli state is founded on terrorism. It was just a far more successful terrorism than what the Palestinians could manage. Despite this I'm not one of those leftists who are in favour of driving them into the say. Your nation was founded on slavery and genocide too.

I don't see your point here.

Personally, I'm waiting for someone to call them "indigenous".

It's hard to call anyone in the Middle East indigenous, given how history's worked.

You might be able to call people on the Arabic Peninsula "indigenous". Not sure with that.

[States of Glory]

I guess before we go any further it's important to note that the guy behind the invention of Palestinian as anything other than a regional identifier, much like how "North American" doesn't imply a specific nationality or ethnicity, collaborated with the Nazis. Seriously.

Kind of wild, really.

I'm not sure how people who died over forty years ago dictate what modern Palestinians believe.

[Thermodolia]

No you wouldn't. It's regulating interstate commerce so you would have to financially support an anti-Israel group in a that's located in a different state.

Fair enough. I didn't read far enough into that/hyperbole. I'm in another city, so I'm basically sitting at a coffee shop quickly browsing these forums.

As for the jailtime? Does that not seem ludicrous? I don't fervently hate Israel, and I personally don't think I'd boycott it. But if our members of Congress are willing to send people to jail for criticizing a country that takes and takes from us, I think that's indicative of a larger problem.

Things like this already exist though. You can get sent to jail for boycotting a friendly US power during a war. For example if the UK and the US where in war against Russia boycotting the UK could get you sent to jail.

[Major-Tom]

Fair enough. I didn't read far enough into that/hyperbole. I'm in another city, so I'm basically sitting at a coffee shop quickly browsing these forums.

As for the jailtime? Does that not seem ludicrous? I don't fervently hate Israel, and I personally don't think I'd boycott it. But if our members of Congress are willing to send people to jail for criticizing a country that takes and takes from us, I think that's indicative of a larger problem.

Things like this already exist though. You can get sent to jail for boycotting a friendly US power during a war. For example if the UK and the US where in war against Russia boycotting the UK could get you sent to jail.

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. The fact is, even though this has/does happen, it doesn't mean it should be excused or brushed aside. Not in a representative democracy.

Speech should never be criminalized.

[Proctopeo]

I guess before we go any further it's important to note that the guy behind the invention of Palestinian as anything other than a regional identifier, much like how "North American" doesn't imply a specific nationality or ethnicity, collaborated with the Nazis. Seriously.

Kind of wild, really.

I'm not sure how people who died over forty years ago dictate what modern Palestinians believe.

I didn't say anything about what modern Palestinians believe.

[Thermodolia]

Things like this already exist though. You can get sent to jail for boycotting a friendly US power during a war. For example if the UK and the US where in war against Russia boycotting the UK could get you sent to jail.

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. The fact is, even though this has/does happen, it doesn't mean it should be excused or brushed aside. Not in a representative democracy.

Speech should never be criminalized.

Eh free speech does have limits though.

[Pasong Tirad]

I guess before we go any further it's important to note that the guy behind the invention of Palestinian as anything other than a regional identifier, much like how "North American" doesn't imply a specific nationality or ethnicity, collaborated with the Nazis. Seriously.

Kind of wild, really.

I'm not sure how people who died over forty years ago dictate what modern Palestinians believe.

I wouldn't discount the history of the region so easily, though.

[Major-Tom]

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. The fact is, even though this has/does happen, it doesn't mean it should be excused or brushed aside. Not in a representative democracy.

Speech should never be criminalized.

Eh free speech does have limits though.

Ehhhhh, you know me. I'm of the opinion that people can say what they damn please, unless it's extraordinarily provocative.

[Salandriagado]

This is an assault on liberty. Anti-Israelism is NOT the same as anti-Semitism. There are plenty of Jews who do not support every single action Israel takes.

According to the Israeli government, anti-Israelism, or even opposing any policy of the Israeli government, equals anti-Semitism. Also, remembering that Palestinians are Semites, too, equals anti-Semitism. Also disagreeing with any statement of the Israeli government equals anti-Semitism.

Also, some Hitler reference.

Hell, I've had three different people on these forums call me antisemetic for the statement "no state or government has any rights: rights belong to actual people" (on the basis that said statement implies that Israel doesn't have some magical eternal inarguable right to do whatever the fuck it likes forever).

Things like this already exist though. You can get sent to jail for boycotting a friendly US power during a war. For example if the UK and the US where in war against Russia boycotting the UK could get you sent to jail.

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. The fact is, even though this has/does happen, it doesn't mean it should be excused or brushed aside. Not in a representative democracy.

Speech should never be criminalized.

There are definitely forms of speech that should be criminal. Starting with, for example, gang bosses saying "shoot that guy".

[Minoa]

Eh free speech does have limits though.

Ehhhhh, you know me. I'm of the opinion that people can say what they damn please, unless it's extraordinarily provocative.

In my opinion, inciting racial or ethnic hatred does not count as free speech.

[Major-Tom]

According to the Israeli government, anti-Israelism, or even opposing any policy of the Israeli government, equals anti-Semitism. Also, remembering that Palestinians are Semites, too, equals anti-Semitism. Also disagreeing with any statement of the Israeli government equals anti-Semitism.

Also, some Hitler reference.

Hell, I've had three different people on these forums call me antisemetic for the statement "no state or government has any rights: rights belong to actual people" (on the basis that said statement implies that Israel doesn't have some magical eternal inarguable right to do whatever the fuck it likes forever).

Which in and of itself is ridiculous. The fact is, even though this has/does happen, it doesn't mean it should be excused or brushed aside. Not in a representative democracy.

Speech should never be criminalized.

There are definitely forms of speech that should be criminal. Starting with, for example, gang bosses saying "shoot that guy".

With exceptions, sure. I have an issue of not proofreading and just saying whatever comes to my mind. So sometimes I forget the caveats. I should work on that...

[Major-Tom]

Ehhhhh, you know me. I'm of the opinion that people can say what they damn please, unless it's extraordinarily provocative.

In my opinion, inciting racial or ethnic hatred does not count as free speech.

Define inciting racial hatred.

If some idiot says, "I hate Pollacks" or "God damn Muslems should leave the CITY OF ENGLAND" then like, yeah, they're stupid and hateful, but I'd say that's their right.

If someone gets on a soapbox and starts screaming about how the "Poles" must be exterminated, then maybe send the police at him.

[Bakery Hill]

So did the people who founded the modern Israeli state. They also blew up buildings. The Israeli state is founded on terrorism. It was just a far more successful terrorism than what the Palestinians could manage. Despite this I'm not one of those leftists who are in favour of driving them into the say. Your nation was founded on slavery and genocide too.

I don't see your point here.

If you want to damn the Palestinians for unsuccessfully collaborating with Hitler and furthermore committing terrorism to try and bring about their state, we've got to recognise that the Israelis did a small degree of the former and much more of the latter to successfully bring about theirs.

You might be able to call people on the Arabic Peninsula "indigenous". Not sure with that.

Yeah there were definitely pre-Semitic peoples in the wider Middle East, the Sumerians for one. Peninsula stuff is murky iirc.

[Minoa]

In my opinion, inciting racial or ethnic hatred does not count as free speech.

Define inciting racial hatred.

If some idiot says, "I hate Pollacks" or "God damn Muslems should leave the CITY OF ENGLAND" then like, yeah, they're stupid and hateful, but I'd say that's their right.

If someone gets on a soapbox and starts screaming about how the "Poles" must be exterminated, then maybe send the police at him.

The latter, plus making people fearful for their safety just because of their religion or ethnicity.