Betsy DeVos to meet with MRAs

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ ... ytwitterus

Now I'm no fan of the Trump administration, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. It's time we stopped stacking the deck against MRAs and gave them a real hearing.

As for campus rape, people aren't even going to need to see a conviction to jump to conclusions. The public will be oh-so-sure of themselves the accused is guilty, even thought the public has been wrong about such cases before. Why not just protect the identities of the accused, at least until the trial is over?

Is it to make other accusers come forward? Because quite frankly, we've no way of knowing whether or not they're copycat accusers anyway.

Without a false rape accusation being as life-ruining, the legal system will no longer need to apply scrutiny as intense to the accuser, and there will be more incentive to come forward anyway.

[Galloism]

Wow, this Vice article is especially bad, even by Vice standards, and that's an impressively low bar to limbo under.

[Nyndrellen]

I'm no fan of the Trump administration, but a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Reading your post is actually one of the only times I've had a perceivably bad emotional reaction to their crappy, childish antics.

"Yuck" is all I can really say about this.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Wow, this Vice article is especially bad, even by Vice standards, and that's an impressively low bar to limbo under.

Eh, I couldn't be arsed to read through/listen to multiple sources on the same subject, and I thought linking to that article would be better than nothing.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Gallo, this article is ass.

[Tinfect Diplomatic Enclave]

Oh boy. I can't for what "Misandry, what is it, and why Women should stop talking back and get in the Kitchen" to become required reading in our Schools.

[Galloism]

I'm no fan of the Trump administration, but a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Reading your post is actually one of the only times I've had a perceivably bad emotional reaction to their antics.

"Yuck" is all I can really say about this.

What in particular is yuck?

I mean, they haven't even done anything yet as far as I can tell, other than announce "we're going to talk to various interested parties and advocacy groups".

[Dushan]

Wow, this Vice article is especially bad, even by Vice standards, and that's an impressively low bar to limbo under.

I remember the times when VICE was actually somewhat avantgarde and ran some decent and interesting articles.

[Galloism]

Wow, this Vice article is especially bad, even by Vice standards, and that's an impressively low bar to limbo under.

I remember the times when VICE was actually somewhat avantgarde and ran some decent and interesting articles.

One more year, and you'll be yelling at kids to get off your lawn.

[Senkaku]

Given that she's also doing stuff like this, I doubt this is somehow out of some goodhearted attempt to try and protect men who are falsely accused (or men who are raped) and more about the Trump administration generally trying to fuck women over.

[Nyndrellen]

Reading your post is actually one of the only times I've had a perceivably bad emotional reaction to their antics.

"Yuck" is all I can really say about this.

What in particular is yuck?

I mean, they haven't even done anything yet as far as I can tell, other than announce "we're going to talk to various interested parties and advocacy groups".

A group that doxxes women who accused someone of rape and had their case dismissed by campus authority being included as an advocacy group on talks about how sexual assault affects people evokes my natural disgust reaction. Hence, yuck.

[Hansdeltania]

What the hell is an MRA?

[Galloism]

What in particular is yuck?

I mean, they haven't even done anything yet as far as I can tell, other than announce "we're going to talk to various interested parties and advocacy groups".

A group that doxxes women who accused someone of rape and had their case dismissed by campus authority being included as an advocacy group on talks about how sexual assault affects people evokes my natural disgust reaction. Hence, yuck.

That's a little distasteful, sure. It's about as distasteful as what the media does to any man who has ever been accused of anything ever, but I'll agree it's distasteful.

[Galloism]

Given that she's also doing stuff like this, I doubt this is somehow out of some goodhearted attempt to try and protect men who are falsely accused (or men who are raped) and more about the Trump administration generally trying to fuck women over.

Looks like someone accidentally said out loud what they have personally observed and then apologized for it (although, I will note, did not retract it).

EDIT: Incidentally, while 90% is almost assuredly way too high, there's some basis for the possibility that many encounters are exactly as described:

Thus, across the disparate populations studied, researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol. Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). Similarly, approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman’s alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault. The perpetrators are legally and morally responsible for their behavior.

Finally, alcohol consumption by perpetrators and victims tends to co-occur that is, when one of them is drinking, the other one is generally drinking as well (Abbey et al. 1998; Harrington and Leitenberg 1994). Rarely is only the victim drinking alcohol. This finding is not surprising, because in social situations (e.g., in bars or at parties), drinking tends to be a shared activity. However, this finding complicates researchers’ efforts to disentangle the unique effects of alcohol consumption on the perpetrators’ versus the victims’ behavior.

The problem is that they make the classic mistake: if a man and woman are equally drunk and have sex, he raped her.

Because penis.

[Nyndrellen]

A group that doxxes women who accused someone of rape and had their case dismissed by campus authority being included as an advocacy group on talks about how sexual assault affects people evokes my natural disgust reaction. Hence, yuck.

That's a little distasteful, sure. It's about as distasteful as what the media does to any man who has ever been accused of anything ever, but I'll agree it's distasteful.

Lynchmobbing in general is gross, yeah.

Although I didn't understand exactly which of the two things you consider a 'little distasteful'; the group that doxxes women who had their case dismissed and regularly posts articles like 'Why Feminism is Killing The Family', or the administration that is apparently going to give them a platform and a crowd to listen to them. I'd be hard-pressed to think why the latter is just a 'little' distasteful but I can understand why someone would say it, but attributing that to the former is downplaying it immensely.

[Galloism]

That's a little distasteful, sure. It's about as distasteful as what the media does to any man who has ever been accused of anything ever, but I'll agree it's distasteful.

Lynchmobbing in general is gross, yeah.

Although I didn't understand exactly which of the two things you consider a 'little distasteful'; the group that doxxes women who had their case dismissed and regularly posts articles like 'Why Feminism is Killing The Family', or the administration that is apparently going to give them a platform and a crowd to listen to them. I'd be hard-pressed to think why the latter is just a 'little' distasteful but I can understand why someone would say it, but attributing that to the former is downplaying it immensely.

NCFM is somewhat distasteful. So is Know your IX, which is also being given a voice. The former posts "false accusers" with less than adequate evidence of such (which is reminiscent of the Dear Colleague Letter recommendations, except targeting the other party), while the latter directly protects rapists who happen to be female by spreading knowingly false information regarding perpetration and victimization. They're both distasteful.

I don't know a lot about NWLC and ERoC.

[Nyndrellen]

Lynchmobbing in general is gross, yeah.

Although I didn't understand exactly which of the two things you consider a 'little distasteful'; the group that doxxes women who had their case dismissed and regularly posts articles like 'Why Feminism is Killing The Family', or the administration that is apparently going to give them a platform and a crowd to listen to them. I'd be hard-pressed to think why the latter is just a 'little' distasteful but I can understand why someone would say it, but attributing that to the former is downplaying it immensely.

NCFM is somewhat distasteful. So is Know your IX, which is also being given a voice. The former posts "false accusers" with less than adequate evidence of such (which is reminiscent of the Dear Colleague Letter recommendations, except targeting the other party), while the latter directly protects rapists who happen to be female by spreading knowingly false information regarding perpetration and victimization. They're both distasteful.

I don't know a lot about NWLC and ERoC.

This was a pretty good exercise on how you can make doxxing look better and run-of-the-mill political misinformation look worse through wording. It didn't really make me think anything else other than that and I don't really know if this is going anywhere.

[Senkaku]

The problem is that they make the classic mistake: if a man and woman are equally drunk and have sex, he raped her.

Because penis.

It's funny, I used to think you were perhaps the only MRA type on NSG with a sense of moderation and sensibility- now we appear to be suggesting that it's unfair to accuse men of rape if both parties to an act were drunk? Hopefully if I'm dating some fuckboi in college he won't have a similar mindset.

[Galloism]

The problem is that they make the classic mistake: if a man and woman are equally drunk and have sex, he raped her.

Because penis.

It's funny, I used to think you were perhaps the only MRA type on NSG with a sense of moderation and sensibility- now we appear to be suggesting that it's unfair to accuse people of rape if both parties to an act were drunk? Hopefully if I'm dating some fuckboi in college he won't have a similar mindset.

If two people drunkenly have sex with each other at a similar level of drunkenness, either both raped the other or rape didn't occur for lack of mens rea on the part of either party.

You can't say "that one has a penis, so he's responsible".

That's a blatantly sexist position.

[Galloism]

NCFM is somewhat distasteful. So is Know your IX, which is also being given a voice. The former posts "false accusers" with less than adequate evidence of such (which is reminiscent of the Dear Colleague Letter recommendations, except targeting the other party), while the latter directly protects rapists who happen to be female by spreading knowingly false information regarding perpetration and victimization. They're both distasteful.

I don't know a lot about NWLC and ERoC.

This was a pretty good exercise on how you can make doxxing look better and run-of-the-mill political misinformation look worse through wording. It didn't really make me think anything else other than that and I don't really know if this is going anywhere.

/shrug

They're actively denying rape victims justice based on the gender of the perpetrator. Purposefully and continuously.

I find that distasteful. Maybe I'm the only one.

[Longweather]

Sounds a bit more egalitarian than we've had for a while. I approve.

[Senkaku]

It's funny, I used to think you were perhaps the only MRA type on NSG with a sense of moderation and sensibility- now we appear to be suggesting that it's unfair to accuse people of rape if both parties to an act were drunk? Hopefully if I'm dating some fuckboi in college he won't have a similar mindset.

If two people drunkenly have sex with each other at a similar level of drunkenness, either both raped the other or rape didn't occur for lack of mens rea on the part of either party.

You can't say "that one has a penis, so he's responsible".

That's a blatantly sexist position.

You know, I've never heard a girl (or a male bottom) who got raped at a party or something ever say anything to that end. Usually it's something along the lines of "he held me down", but whatever floats your bullshit boat, I guess. It's quite unfortunate, because false accusers and men being trapped in abusive relationships and the like are all issues that deserved concerned advocates, not ones who tell rape victims "well you were drunk, so it's as much your fault as it was his." It's a damn slippery slope from there to whipping out tape measures to check a girl's skirt when she comes in for a rape kit. Sadly, it seems quite typical in every MRA type I've encountered on NS, and now you too.

To quote the President- Sad!

[Galloism]

If two people drunkenly have sex with each other at a similar level of drunkenness, either both raped the other or rape didn't occur for lack of mens rea on the part of either party.

You can't say "that one has a penis, so he's responsible".

That's a blatantly sexist position.

You know, I've never heard a girl (or a male bottom) who got raped at a party or something ever say anything to that end.

I suggest you look over this case - the first of its kind from last year.

For balance, here's an editorial piece on drunk sex and another article where Joe Biden specifically states sex with drunk women is rape no matter the circumstances - of course, both assume only women are raped (as is typical). It requires a sexist position to try and be even marginally consistent regarding drunk sex being rape.

Incapacitated sex is rape, but if drunk sex is rape, either you be specifically and avowedly sexist, or mutual rape is common.

Usually it's something along the lines of "he held me down", but whatever floats your bullshit boat, I guess. It's quite unfortunate, because false accusers and men being trapped in abusive relationships and the like are all issues that deserved concerned advocates, not ones who tell rape victims "well you were drunk, so it's as much your fault as it was his." It's a damn slippery slope from there to whipping out tape measures to check a girl's skirt when she comes in for a rape kit. Sadly, it seems quite typical in every MRA type I've encountered on NS, and now you too.

To quote the President- Sad!

Actually, I'm not sure what percentage involve physical force in a college setting. The civil rights person said 90% involved no physical force, but like I said, that is probably not accurate. Point is, Joe Biden stated, the Dear Colleague Letter implied, and the editorials agree, drunk sex with no force is rape - of the woman, even if the man is just as drunk as she is. This was the push of the Obama administration.

And no, it doesn't mean "whipping out tape measures". It means we need to stop being fucking sexist in how we approach rape. I know sexism is "mainstream", and people reflexively support it, but I'm against sexism in the approach to rape, and I would hope you would be too. Too bad, I guess.

[Calladan]

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/qvpz4q/betsy-devos-to-meet-with-mens-rights-groups-reports-say?utm_source=broadlytwitterus

Now I'm no fan of the Trump administration, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. It's time we stopped stacking the deck against MRAs and gave them a real hearing.

As for campus rape, people aren't even going to need to see a conviction to jump to conclusions. The public will be oh-so-sure of themselves the accused is guilty, even thought the public has been wrong about such cases before. Why not just protect the identities of the accused, at least until the trial is over?

Is it to make other accusers come forward? Because quite frankly, we've no way of knowing whether or not they're copycat accusers anyway.

Without a false rape accusation being as life-ruining, the legal system will no longer need to apply scrutiny as intense to the accuser, and there will be more incentive to come forward anyway.

So would this apply to ALL accused rapists, or just the rich white ones?

[Costa Fierro]

So would this apply to ALL accused rapists, or just the rich white ones?

Probably the rich white ones. Which is sad, really, because it reinforces the belief that it's OK for men to have their lives ruined because they're minorities or poor.

It's funny, I used to think you were perhaps the only MRA type on NSG with a sense of moderation and sensibility- now we appear to be suggesting that it's unfair to accuse men of rape if both parties to an act were drunk?

Ever heard of that lovely term "teach men not to rape"? That's exactly what is being discussed here. See, the idea of consent in this context is that men should ask women for their consent to have sex and that consent must be given in a manner that is clear and not coerced through threats, intimidation or given under the influence of drugs or alcohol. And if a man does not ask a woman for her consent, or she withdraws it and he does not stop, it's rape.

Where does that include men? It doesn't. Not only do we live in a society that doesn't believe men are ever rape victims (and some argue that men want it because erection), but also because this idea of consent was crafted by feminists, who use the widely debunked "one in three" statistic regarding campus rape.

Not only is it unfair, it's also sexist, because it leaves men who did not consent to sex with women with no recourse, but it also opens up a world of opportunities for women to be able to make false accusations against men on campus, which not only ruins their lives but also makes society less willing to consider genuine cases of rape as being genuine purely because women who want to be vindictive accuse men of being rapists.