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Political Perspective of Working-class White Americans

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Political Perspective of Working-class White Americans

Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:49 pm

http://prospect.org/article/winning-some-middle-road-working-class-whites

American NSers (particularly those of you who are more supportive of Trump and the GOP), what do you think about this expose on WWC political opinions? Would you say this is an accurate characterization of your or your relatives' political views? And for those of you who are more left-leaning, how do you think the Democrats should better reflect the political and social interests of this voter bloc in coming election cycles?

I've seen a lot of alt-right and nativist accounts pop up in the last year or two and wonder how much of that is coming from the "white working class".



The most important characteristic of these middle-of-the-road white male workers is that they approach politics using a fundamentally distinct cognitive framework from that of white workers who hold a firm conservative or progressive ideology. In Molyneux’s Prospect article, he uses the term “white working-class moderates” as a succinct way to characterize these Americans—but it is worth noting that this is not how they generally would describe themselves. They themselves tend to describe their approach to making political decisions as using “practical common sense,” or “my personal philosophy.” They see themselves as trying to “think for myself” to “make up my own mind,” “do my own thinking” or “see both sides” of an issue. When analyzing a political topic, they will often use a distinct “on the one hand, on the other hand” mode of thought.

Observing the groups there were three significant patterns that emerged:

I. These white workers were overwhelmingly cultural traditionalists—but their comments illustrated the fact that there is a fundamental difference between cultural traditionalism and conservatism.

II. “Common sense,” "­middle of the road” white workers do indeed respect and endorse core traditional cultural values, but they also endorse a more unexpected social value—a deep and genuine belief in “tolerance.”

III. In an ironic twist, the admirable trait of “common sense,” “middle of the road” white working-class support for tolerance becomes also a demand that liberals should be tolerant themselves and respect white working-class values as well.

IV. “Common sense,” “middle of the road” white workers don’t see politicians as divided into left or right. They see them as all part of a single corrupt and parasitic new ruling class. Their hostility constitutes a modern form of class consciousness.



As Guy Molyneux said in his Prospect analysis of this same focus group data:

"These voters agree that the economic system is “rigged” as populists like Senators Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders like to say, but with a crucial difference. It is rigged not only to the advantage of those at the top. The men in the focus groups complain that the rich and the poor get taken care of today, while those in the middle get left behind."

This view was perfectly summarized by one participant who said: “The left cares about the poor, the right cares about the rich. Nobody cares about us.”

Regarding the poor and minorities, there is a combination of genuine concern and willingness to help those who are genuinely in need, along with an intense fury and contempt for the lazy, the dishonest, and the criminal.

The participants expressed this dichotomy in many ways:

"If you’re in a wheelchair, yeah, we’ll help you. But if you’re able-bodied there’s no reason you’re not working.

My mom is 70 years old. She has congestive heart failure. She has all kinds of health problems. She cannot work. She has not been able to work for 15 years. … So yeah, she lives off $900 a month in assistance. She gets $16 in food stamps. But I have a friend who has never worked a day in her life but has five kids and also gets $900 a month in food stamps. That is not fair.
"
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Libertypendence Park
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Ex-Nation

Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:11 pm

I feel like something is wrong here. I can't tell what. I kind of just want it all to stop; I remember the promises my parents told me, and the books I read of a better America, but nothing I see today reflects the ideals I was instilled with nor the stories I still hold dear.

I don't care whether or not the government is caring for me. It is my job to care for you in your time of hardship, and yours to cafe for me when it is your turn. If some stroke of good luck happens to cross by another's way, good for them, I am no worse off. But if someone is clothed in magnificence by pulling the strings out of my sleeves, I am going to be upset. I don't know or care what or how specifically ABC legislation will affect XYZ economic factors. All I want is a chance. Please give me the freedom to not only to succeed, but to fail; it will destroy me, but make me beautiful.

I want to be good, and I want others to be good. I feel we confuse truth with tolerance. I don't understand why tolerance is an inherently good thing; I was taught always to accept the good and reject the evil. I feel that I am being marshaled and cajoled and bullied into espousing progressively less comfortable dogma. It doesn't matter if you don't think I am. All that matters is that I think I am; distinguish your opinions from mine. If someone could sit down with me and explain why the thing I fear is actually good, then I will embrace it wholeheartedly; but when you yell at me, I feel only a vague sort of sadness. This sadness alienates me from you and denies me the growth that I could have had. Trust me. The last thing I want is something to hate.

What do you want? What do I have that I can give you? Do you want to win? Because if you want your flag planted on my land, you have to earn that right, whatever it entails.

I was always told the "up" direction of history always pointed forward, not backward. I now see this effect only in the realms of science, and my faith. We have bastardized the word hope, but not the critical concept. I now take it for granted that things - I despise such a weak, ephemeral word, but it's the best I have - will get worse. I don't care whose fault it was. I don't care who's in power now. All I want is for things to get better.

And what I need more than anything is the freedom to make it better myself.

Because I don't trust that anybody else will.
Guilaza wrote:
Lincolnopolis wrote:We could finally have a television channel covering Disability issues and finally have a growing number of people with disabilities that own and run companies. Finally, I wouldn't have to hear the rude and offensive things from non-disabled people. Yeah, I'd be glad to not have to deal with you.

I have aspergers...


#tolerance

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Libertypendence Park
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Ex-Nation

Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:13 pm

It doesn't matter whether I'm working class, or white, or American. If there is a such thing as universal truth - and I believe with every fiber of my being there is - then so long as we're allowed to question, we'll make it to the right answer eventually, regardless of our petty predispositions.
Guilaza wrote:
Lincolnopolis wrote:We could finally have a television channel covering Disability issues and finally have a growing number of people with disabilities that own and run companies. Finally, I wouldn't have to hear the rude and offensive things from non-disabled people. Yeah, I'd be glad to not have to deal with you.

I have aspergers...


#tolerance

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Costa Fierro
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Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:29 pm

As someone on the outside looking in, I see that there is a genuine attitude of discontent among the "white working class" in areas that used to be part of the industrial heartland of the United States. These people have watched their once thriving communities and themselves decline due to loss of jobs and a loss of the local economy, with those who could afford to move already having done so, further leading to additional declines. They don't trust politicians because both sides have sold their communities down the river in order to line their own pockets, with the Republicans pretending to give a damn about traditional family values and the Democrats pretending to stand for the "working class American" whilst pandering to the urban poor, who are predominantly Black and Hispanic.

Working class areas that used to be blue turned red because the blue side expected them to vote whilst giving nothing in return.

I don't think that the nativist or the alt-right are a symbol of white, working class American values. It's an insidious movement that rode the popularity of Trump's lip service to those people.
"Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist." - George Carlin

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Libertypendence Park
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Ex-Nation

Postby Libertypendence Park » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:32 pm

I don't agree with everything you said, but I love how you said it.
Guilaza wrote:
Lincolnopolis wrote:We could finally have a television channel covering Disability issues and finally have a growing number of people with disabilities that own and run companies. Finally, I wouldn't have to hear the rude and offensive things from non-disabled people. Yeah, I'd be glad to not have to deal with you.

I have aspergers...


#tolerance

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Liberated Territories
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Ex-Nation

Postby Liberated Territories » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:33 pm

IDK but this idea of politicians being a class into itself could be well exploited by libertarians, meheheh.
Last edited by Liberated Territories on Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:43 pm

There's a lot of truth in OP's posting. As what would probably be considered a "working class white American" a good portion of that was like looking in a mirror. The part about tolerance especially, I consider tolerance of other people a major issue, and as a former Democrat, It feels that the party has grown more intolerant of me over the years. As a person that suffered under social programs that were supposed to help me, I have become frustrated by the party's insistence that their idiot programs are in my "best interests" when in reality, I don't believe the party has any idea, or is even capable of fathoming what my interests are. The statement that "The left cares about the poor, and the Right about the rich, and nobody about us." Also rings very true.
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Republic of the Cristo
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Ex-Nation

Postby Republic of the Cristo » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:09 pm

Dead on
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:41 pm

Wow, I didn't think anyone would respond to this. Thank you Libertypendence Park, I'm glad my post reached someone on this site.

As you may have guessed from my post history on this account and others, I was born and raised in the US but I am neither white nor of a working-class background. My parents are immigrants from a non-English speaking country who came here to pursue graduate studies and fat paychecks. My upbringing, location, race, religious affiliation, educational level, and vocation scream progressive/liberal/Democrat, and my political views are quite typical of Obama and Hillary voters. I genuinely believe climate change is the #1 most important issue we need to deal with, and the fact that one of our major political parties is burying its head in the sand and pretending the issue doesn't exist is enough to make me vote for the other side.

Yet at the same time, I find myself agreeing with a lot of this "white working-class" mentality. Maybe it comes from my dad, who taught me and my brother the value of hard work, self-discipline, personal responsibility, and integrating into society. Or maybe it comes from watching Charlie Brown and the Simpsons when I was younger. Or maybe it comes from seeing how entitled and sheltered a lot of my fellow "college liberals" are. Or maybe it's because I care about giving those whose opinions are silenced a way to make themselves heard. Or maybe it's because I'm disgusted at how polarized our politics and society is nowadays and think it's important to change that.

I don't really know where I was going with this. I guess I'm just happy I'm getting responses in this thread.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

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Nyndrellen
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nyndrellen » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:18 pm

Libertypendence Park wrote:I feel like something is wrong here. I can't tell what. I kind of just want it all to stop; I remember the promises my parents told me, and the books I read of a better America, but nothing I see today reflects the ideals I was instilled with nor the stories I still hold dear.

I don't care whether or not the government is caring for me. It is my job to care for you in your time of hardship, and yours to cafe for me when it is your turn. If some stroke of good luck happens to cross by another's way, good for them, I am no worse off. But if someone is clothed in magnificence by pulling the strings out of my sleeves, I am going to be upset. I don't know or care what or how specifically ABC legislation will affect XYZ economic factors. All I want is a chance. Please give me the freedom to not only to succeed, but to fail; it will destroy me, but make me beautiful (...)


Even though I disagree with your overall sentiment that things are going in a wrong direction, that was beautifully well-written and wholehearted.

I don't think I can personally serve as an example of a Good Progressive™ for you if many others have already tainted your opinion of the concept itself, but I'd invite you to ask the people whose ideals disturbed you to tell you what books or authors inspired them. A lot of the time, a bunch of people spouting second-hand politics without fully understanding it end up giving it a bad image, but the original source is almost always less toxic and confusing.
Last edited by Nyndrellen on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
this nation's ideology doesn't reflect my own views. it reflects the views of a giant, greedy, angry lizard lady with an army of goblins trying to amass as much gold as possible.

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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:22 pm

Ther was a time when the Republicans couldn't even compete with the Democrats on working mens' votes. The Democrats simply need to go back to what they were before they started taking in corporate money and abandoned the Unions and what they stand for.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:25 pm

Kvatchdom wrote:Ther was a time when the Republicans couldn't even compete with the Democrats on working mens' votes. The Democrats simply need to go back to what they were before they started taking in corporate money and abandoned the Unions and what they stand for.


The Unions need to go back to what they were before they started pandering to political interests and throwing their own members under the bus because of party line politics.

I also understand the idea of just wanting it all to stop. I'm sick and tired of getting slapped with new garbage every time the legislature convenes. It doesn't even matter which party, it's detrimental law after detrimental law. I'm probably one of the few who sees government shut downs as a good thing whenever they threaten it because budgets.
Last edited by Telconi on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:27 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:Ther was a time when the Republicans couldn't even compete with the Democrats on working mens' votes. The Democrats simply need to go back to what they were before they started taking in corporate money and abandoned the Unions and what they stand for.


The Unions need to go back to what they were before they started pandering to political interests and throwing their own members under the bus because of party line politics.

The Unions were pushed there when they were abandoned. How big of a % do you believe of Americans are part of a Union now? Take a guess.

The point is, American Unions either withered away, or turned into corrupt political machines instead of factions meant to support their members against industries.
boo
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:28 pm

Kvatchdom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
The Unions need to go back to what they were before they started pandering to political interests and throwing their own members under the bus because of party line politics.

The Unions were pushed there when they were abandoned. How big of a % do you believe of Americans are part of a Union now? Take a guess.

The point is, American Unions either withered away, or turned into corrupt political machines instead of factions meant to support their members against industries.


The "corrupt political machine" model is doing more harm to them than party abandonment ever did.
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ANTI:
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-Unnecessary Taxes
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:32 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:The Unions were pushed there when they were abandoned. How big of a % do you believe of Americans are part of a Union now? Take a guess.

The point is, American Unions either withered away, or turned into corrupt political machines instead of factions meant to support their members against industries.


The "corrupt political machine" model is doing more harm to them than party abandonment ever did.

Which happened because politics abandoned them, and due to the anti-Union propaganda of the 70s-now in the US.
boo
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:36 pm

Kvatchdom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
The "corrupt political machine" model is doing more harm to them than party abandonment ever did.

Which happened because politics abandoned them, and due to the anti-Union propaganda of the 70s-now in the US.


No, it happened because the unions became corrupt. Nobody forced them into the gutter, they went there willingly believing it was their path to survival. The failure here, is that they lost all moral mandate as a union. Any union that is willing to drag the membership into the gutter so as to retain the status quo for union membership is just as bad if not worse than the firm they are supposed to counter.
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PRO:
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-LGBTQ Rights
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-Labor Unions
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ANTI:
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-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:46 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:Which happened because politics abandoned them, and due to the anti-Union propaganda of the 70s-now in the US.


No, it happened because the unions became corrupt. Nobody forced them into the gutter, they went there willingly believing it was their path to survival. The failure here, is that they lost all moral mandate as a union. Any union that is willing to drag the membership into the gutter so as to retain the status quo for union membership is just as bad if not worse than the firm they are supposed to counter.

And that happened because the ones that surived the dying membership caused by neoliberalism had to resort to other ways of survival. Your current unions are corrupt, yes, but the lack of unions is far worse.
boo
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:56 pm

Kvatchdom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
No, it happened because the unions became corrupt. Nobody forced them into the gutter, they went there willingly believing it was their path to survival. The failure here, is that they lost all moral mandate as a union. Any union that is willing to drag the membership into the gutter so as to retain the status quo for union membership is just as bad if not worse than the firm they are supposed to counter.

And that happened because the ones that surived the dying membership caused by neoliberalism had to resort to other ways of survival. Your current unions are corrupt, yes, but the lack of unions is far worse.


How is a detrimental union worse than no union at all?
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PRO:
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-Labor Unions
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ANTI:
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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:58 pm

Telconi wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:And that happened because the ones that surived the dying membership caused by neoliberalism had to resort to other ways of survival. Your current unions are corrupt, yes, but the lack of unions is far worse.


How is a detrimental union worse than no union at all?

An abundance of good unions is preferable to none, and none at all leads to laissez-faire conditions.
boo
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:02 am

Kvatchdom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
How is a detrimental union worse than no union at all?

An abundance of good unions is preferable to none, and none at all leads to laissez-faire conditions.


Ok, doesn't answer the question. You have stated that a corrupt union is better than no union. As a worker that's suffering under a detrimentally corrupt Union, I can tell you that if it came to a no confidence vote I'd shed union representation in a heart beat and try my hand at Laissez-faire. So tell me, how does a union, that actively builds a negative reputation for unions, benefit anyone over there simply being no union?
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PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
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-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:04 am

Telconi wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:An abundance of good unions is preferable to none, and none at all leads to laissez-faire conditions.


Ok, doesn't answer the question. You have stated that a corrupt union is better than no union. As a worker that's suffering under a detrimentally corrupt Union, I can tell you that if it came to a no confidence vote I'd shed union representation in a heart beat and try my hand at Laissez-faire. So tell me, how does a union, that actively builds a negative reputation for unions, benefit anyone over there simply being no union?

A Union is the symbol of what was achieved in Europe and elsewhere through the blood of thousands in worse conditions than you. A corrupt union is no excuse to oppose unions overall, and certainly not one to disband them. It is class treachery.
boo
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:08 am

Kvatchdom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Ok, doesn't answer the question. You have stated that a corrupt union is better than no union. As a worker that's suffering under a detrimentally corrupt Union, I can tell you that if it came to a no confidence vote I'd shed union representation in a heart beat and try my hand at Laissez-faire. So tell me, how does a union, that actively builds a negative reputation for unions, benefit anyone over there simply being no union?

A Union is the symbol of what was achieved in Europe and elsewhere through the blood of thousands in worse conditions than you. A corrupt union is no excuse to oppose unions overall, and certainly not one to disband them. It is class treachery.


"Class treachery"

Ohboyherewego...
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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San Marlindo
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Posts: 1877
Founded: Dec 01, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby San Marlindo » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:11 am

I think white middle class Americans are not a monolith. They probably account for the most diverse range of political opinions in the US of any one voting bloc (hell I've lived in three or four countries besides the US and I'm tempted to say that they have the most diverse range of political opinions of any one demographic, ever that I've encountered in my life). I am not a white middle class American myself, but that is my experience with those I've worked and socialized with, from both the North and the South, in the US and also among expats abroad. Trying to break them down into nice little checkboxes and group them into three or four clearly demarcated categories is cute. But it does not work. You'd have an easier time doing this with black Americans or Americans of Asian descent.
"Cold, analytical, materialistic thinking tends to throttle the urge to imagination." - Michael Chekhov

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Jelmatt
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Founded: Nov 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jelmatt » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:18 am

San Marlindo wrote:I think white middle class Americans are not a monolith. They probably account for the most diverse range of political opinions in the US of any one voting bloc (hell I've lived in three or four countries besides the US and I'm tempted to say that they have the most diverse range of political opinions of any one demographic, ever that I've encountered in my life). I am not a white middle class American myself, but that is my experience with those I've worked and socialized with, from both the North and the South, in the US and also among expats abroad. Trying to break them down into nice little checkboxes and group them into three or four clearly demarcated categories is cute. But it does not work. You'd have an easier time doing this with black Americans or Americans of Asian descent.

The article is specifically about the moderates, especially the men, within that group.

Also, the article's about working-class, not middle-class, whites.
Last edited by Jelmatt on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
This nation does not represent my actual views. A semi-feudal absolute monarchy going through political upheaval.

Leftist; democratic socialist with a helping of civic republicanism.



"Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide."
-- Ode to Joy (translated from German)
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Aillyria wrote:That's Capitalism's natural tendency, tbh.


The market is the people Aillyria. You should know this. And if the people want hentai, who are we to question?

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San Marlindo
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Posts: 1877
Founded: Dec 01, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby San Marlindo » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:35 am

Jelmatt wrote:
San Marlindo wrote:I think white middle class Americans are not a monolith. They probably account for the most diverse range of political opinions in the US of any one voting bloc (hell I've lived in three or four countries besides the US and I'm tempted to say that they have the most diverse range of political opinions of any one demographic, ever that I've encountered in my life). I am not a white middle class American myself, but that is my experience with those I've worked and socialized with, from both the North and the South, in the US and also among expats abroad. Trying to break them down into nice little checkboxes and group them into three or four clearly demarcated categories is cute. But it does not work. You'd have an easier time doing this with black Americans or Americans of Asian descent.

The article is specifically about the moderates, especially the men, within that group.

Also, the article's about working-class, not middle-class, whites.


Ah, OK. My brain skipped a beat and I missed the "class" in the title and thought it just read "working white Americans".
"Cold, analytical, materialistic thinking tends to throttle the urge to imagination." - Michael Chekhov

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