Is Diversity and Multiculturalism a Good or Bad Thing?

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

HMS QE is right, at least as far as DC and Tokyo go--I have lived in both.

Really? I've never felt unsafe in DC, and I've wandered the streets at night before.

I also wandered the streets at night because I'm just nuts like that.

I didn't get attacked, but I was at a much higher alert level than I really ever am in Europe, and some streets I walked down I would not have walked down if there had not been cop cars parked on them. Why were there cop cars parked on these streets? Presumably because otherwise they would be the sort of streets you'd be wise not to walk down.

Washington DC might not be unsafe for a given person's tolerance for poor safety, but it is less safe than Stettin which is a literal post-Soviet dump. Poorer by sight than Belgrade (which felt safer than any city I've visited in the US).

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

It's a crude restatement, to which I'd apply many caveats, but it's approximately right yes.


I have. It isn't true. Many countries only have shitty conditions. And yet, not always worse people. Stettin is way shittier than Washington DC but the people there are not as dangerous, unpleasant, or stupid.


No, it's biological in origin.

Assuming what you say is true, how much of an effect does this biological effect have? Is it a slight tendency, an overwhelming majority, or something else?

Even if people are, in fact, not created equal. I'd still be very cautious about any sort of discrimination based on biology.

According to twin studies, it's really just biology and randomness. Transferring money to people or educating them differently or changing their family and home environment has near zero effect on life outcomes like income and criminality.

Anyway, I never said anything about discrimination. The problem in the US is that it goes even further than just not discriminating: it discriminates so as to get the outcome it would have if people were actually equal. If you just deported all the weirdos out of New York, there would still be blacks in New York, there would just be a lot more blacks than whites missing. But that is called disparate impact and is illegal.

[Albrenia]

I didn't mean to imply that you were advocating discrimination sorry, was just adding in my own opinion on it.

Would you agree that even if certain biological factors were a heavy influence, that it would still be 'wrong' to judge individuals based on that?

[Conserative Morality]

According to twin studies, it's really just biology and randomness. Transferring money to people or educating them differently or changing their family and home environment has near zero effect on life outcomes like income and criminality.

Funny that no twin study in the past decade has those kinds of numbers, which estimate heritability of criminality between twins at around 44%. Is this another side effect of you living in the 1920s?

Anyway, I never said anything about discrimination. The problem in the US is that it goes even further than just not discriminating: it discriminates so as to get the outcome it would have if people were actually equal. If you just deported all the weirdos out of New York, there would still be blacks in New York, there would just be a lot more blacks than whites missing. But that is called disparate impact and is illegal.

Weirdos here defined as 'anyone who makes me uncomfortable', of course.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

According to twin studies, it's really just biology and randomness. Transferring money to people or educating them differently or changing their family and home environment has near zero effect on life outcomes like income and criminality.

Funny that no twin study in the past decade has those kinds of numbers, which estimate heritability of criminality between twins at around 44%. Is this another side effect of you living in the 1920s?

I didn't say it was 100% heritable, I said it was close to 100% the combination of heritable factors and noise (which can also be measurement error, but might be genuine randomness).

[Conserative Morality]

I didn't say it was 100% heritable, I said it was close to 100% the combination of heritable factors and noise (which can also be measurement error, but might be genuine randomness).

Is 44% close to 100% now? Even that is individual heritability. Considering that blacks and whites use drugs at approximately the same rates but black Americans are arrested at twice the rate of white Americans for doing so, and imprisoned at nearly four times the rate.

But sure. It's that the blacks are The Criminal Race. Not because of fuckhead racists still trying to make policy like phrenology is still a science.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

I didn't say it was 100% heritable, I said it was close to 100% the combination of heritable factors and noise (which can also be measurement error, but might be genuine randomness).

Is 44% close to 100%

Obviously not. You didn't quoe a figure for heritability and noise, you quoted a figure for heritability alone.

Considering that blacks and whites use drugs at approximately the same rates but black Americans are arrested at twice the rate of white Americans for doing so, and imprisoned at nearly four times the rate.

Because drug convictions are just an easy way to lock up members of criminal militias that surprisingly don't tend to be that common in neighbourhoods of white casual drug users.

But sure. It's that the blacks are The Criminal Race. Not because of fuckhead racists still trying to make policy like phrenology is still a science.

No one is trying to do that.

[Conserative Morality]

Funny enough, the partially heritable traits that are actually associated with criminality include callousness, high vigilance, lack of empathy, and lack of self-control - all associated heavily with modern-day racists.

Obviously not. You didn't quoe a figure for heritability and noise, you quoted a figure for heritability alone.

You have fun trying to justify your horrid mathematics. Or rather, the numbers you pull out of your ass to prove your racist claptrap.

Because drug convictions are just an easy way to lock up members of criminal militias that surprisingly don't tend to be that common in neighbourhoods of white casual drug users.

>> white kids are more likely than black kids to have sold drugs by almost 50%

uhu, yeah, it's THE BLACKS who have the gang connections

No one is trying to do that.

"M-muh racial profiling"

"9-98% of murders are committed by BLACK PEOPLE against THE WHITE RACE"

"T-those no good lazy thugs are outside again"

Don't worry. I know your kind. I deal with you all the time. The kind of person who complains about 'hoodlums' when the black neighbor is just mowing their fucking lawn.

[Taihei Tengoku]

HMS QE is right, at least as far as DC and Tokyo go--I have lived in both.

Really? I've never felt unsafe in DC, and I've wandered the streets at night before.

Some parts (e.g. Anacostia) are dodgy even in daylight.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

Funny enough, the partially heritable traits that are actually associated with criminality include callousness, high vigilance, lack of empathy, and lack of self-control - all associated heavily with modern-day racists.

You got a study on that? It's pretty hard to be a modern day racist without self-control.

Obviously not. You didn't quoe a figure for heritability and noise, you quoted a figure for heritability alone.

You have fun trying to justify your horrid mathematics. Or rather, the numbers you pull out of your ass to prove your racist claptrap.

What the hell are you talking about. I stated a figure for a sum of two components, and your point seems to be that I am stupid because just one of those alone is smaller than the sum of the two. How could it not be.

Because drug convictions are just an easy way to lock up members of criminal militias that surprisingly don't tend to be that common in neighbourhoods of white casual drug users.

>> white kids are more likely than black kids to have sold drugs by almost 50%

uhu, yeah, it's THE BLACKS who have the gang connections

There's really nothing wrong with selling drugs. Targeting drugs is just a way of arresting some of the worst people in the worst places. It essentially is profiling, but then profiling makes sense. When google profiles me, it gives me better search results, not worse ones.

No one is trying to do that.

"M-muh racial profiling"

"9-98% of murders are committed by BLACK PEOPLE against THE WHITE RACE"

"T-those no good lazy thugs are outside again"

Don't worry. I know your kind. I deal with you all the time. The kind of person who complains about 'hoodlums' when the black neighbor is just mowing their fucking lawn.

Who who says things like that is in any position of power in the US? The US does have some de-facto discrimination, since without it the society would just be plain non-functional, but it is only allowed to exist where even its practioners can pretend they aren't doing it.

[Conserative Morality]

Some parts (e.g. Anacostia) are dodgy even in daylight.

Mm, I've always heard to stay on the right side of the Potomac. I've never tested that.

[Conserative Morality]

You got a study on that? It's pretty hard to be a modern day racist without self-control.

Really? It take a lot self-control to attack people wearing burqas and shout 'Nigger' at people? Wow! Here I thought the morons going out to wave Confederate flags were doing so precisely because they COULDN'T control themselves despite racism being a death sentence for any serious career.

What the hell are you talking about. I stated a figure for a sum of two components, and your point seems to be that I am stupid because just one of those alone is smaller than the sum of the two. How could it not be.

If you're looking at studies with statistical noise of 50%+, you're looking at the wrong studies. Otherwise, my point stands.

Who who says things like that is in any position of power in the US?

Trump LITERALLY retweeted the second of those. And dog whistle politics are rapidly becoming ordinary whistle politics.

The US does have some de-facto discrimination, since without it the society would just be plain non-functional, but it is only allowed to exist where even its practioners can pretend they aren't doing it.

"If we didn't sneer at black people, society wouldn't function!"

Your ideal society, maybe.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

You got a study on that? It's pretty hard to be a modern day racist without self-control.

Really? It take a lot self-control to attack people wearing burqas and shout 'Nigger' at people? Wow! Here I thought the morons going out to wave Confederate flags were doing so precisely because they COULDN'T control themselves despite racism being a death sentence for any serious career.

Looking for people who lose control is not a very effective way of judging whether the population as a whole has good self-control, for obvious reasons.

I've never seen a confederate flag bedecked man call someone a nigger. I've had quite a few people confess racist opinions while drunk late at night after checking no one is listening.

What the hell are you talking about. I stated a figure for a sum of two components, and your point seems to be that I am stupid because just one of those alone is smaller than the sum of the two. How could it not be.

If you're looking at studies with statistical noise of 50%+, you're looking at the wrong studies. Otherwise, my point stands.

So what was the figure in the study you found. If it was over 50%, clearly you are looking at the wrong study (according to you).

Who who says things like that is in any position of power in the US?

Trump LITERALLY retweeted the second of those. And dog whistle politics are rapidly becoming ordinary whistle politics.

OK, wake me up when Trump repeals the CRA.

The US does have some de-facto discrimination, since without it the society would just be plain non-functional, but it is only allowed to exist where even its practioners can pretend they aren't doing it.

"If we didn't sneer at black people, society wouldn't function!"

Your ideal society, maybe.

You'd be back with the Warren Court crime wave.

[Conserative Morality]

I've never seen a confederate flag bedecked man call someone a nigger. I've had quite a few people confess racist opinions while drunk late at night after checking no one is listening.

I have literally heard people whisper racist jokes about all the 'niggers' around, heard people call from their trucks 'Get lost nigger!' (my friend wasn't even black but I guess brown = nigger), heard every racist 'joke' and jab in the book...

So what was the figure in the study you found. If it was over 50%, clearly you are looking at the wrong study (according to you).

Environmental factors were nearly equivalent at 39%.

OK, wake me up when Trump repeals the CRA.

So now you're not disputing people in power say that shit? Good, glad to see you've given up that particular brand of blatant bullshit.

You'd be back with the Warren Court crime wave.

Never ask 'why', Just look for a scapegoat. Typical.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

I've never seen a confederate flag bedecked man call someone a nigger. I've had quite a few people confess racist opinions while drunk late at night after checking no one is listening.

Then you need to get out more. As someone living in rural Virginia, this is not uncommon at all. One of my favourites was the guy, who has a Confederate flag on his truck, say "Give me white American cheese on my burger. The only good American!" He then laughed uproariously.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

I've never seen a confederate flag bedecked man call someone a nigger. I've had quite a few people confess racist opinions while drunk late at night after checking no one is listening.

I have literally heard people whisper racist jokes about all the 'niggers' around, heard people call from their trucks 'Get lost nigger!' (my friend wasn't even black but I guess brown = nigger), heard every racist 'joke' and jab in the book...

You have a lot of evidence that being publicly racist destroys your career and people whisper racist jokes in dark rooms late at night and therefore 1. America is a racist country and 2. racists are a serious public order problem. Huh?

So what was the figure in the study you found. If it was over 50%, clearly you are looking at the wrong study (according to you).

Environmental factors were nearly equivalent at 39%.

Individual or shared? Individual environment = noise.

[/quote][sorry this text was destroed by a formatting error][/quote]
Why - because running complex organisations with beliefs wildly divergent from reality usually ends badly.

[Genivaria]

Really? It take a lot self-control to attack people wearing burqas and shout 'Nigger' at people? Wow! Here I thought the morons going out to wave Confederate flags were doing so precisely because they COULDN'T control themselves despite racism being a death sentence for any serious career.

Looking for people who lose control is not a very effective way of judging whether the population as a whole has good self-control, for obvious reasons.

I've never seen a confederate flag bedecked man call someone a nigger.

You obviously need to get out more.

[Conserative Morality]

You have a lot of evidence that being publicly racist destroys your career and people whisper racist jokes in dark rooms late at night and therefore 1. America is a racist country and 2. racists are a serious public order problem. Huh?

Nice one. Remember where the claim was 'self-control is linked to racism' and not either of the two strawmen you assigned to me? It's a weak argument that can't even face its opposite, but I suppose weak arguments are all racists have. Other than slurs shouted at the top of their lungs and praise for long-destroyed twats who hated black people just enough to gain the admiration of cowards on the internet.

Why - because running complex organisations with beliefs wildly divergent from reality usually ends badly.

This is why racists should be kept from any sort of power, anywhere, in any capacity.

Individual or shared? Individual environment = noise.

Shared environment 29%.

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

You have a lot of evidence that being publicly racist destroys your career and people whisper racist jokes in dark rooms late at night and therefore 1. America is a racist country and 2. racists are a serious public order problem. Huh?

Nice one. Remember where the claim was 'self-control is linked to racism' and not either of the two strawmen you assigned to me? It's a weak argument that can't even face its opposite, but I suppose weak arguments are all racists have. Other than slurs shouted at the top of their lungs and praise for long-destroyed twats who hated black people just enough to gain the admiration of cowards on the internet.

I didn't claim self-control was linked to racism. You claimed that lack of self-control was linked to racism, which you tried to prove by implicitly arguing that only people who lose control and out themselves in public are racists. It does stand to reason that succesful belief in highly unpopular and officially suppressed views is linked with self-control, but I certainly don't care about it enough to argue the point.

Why - because running complex organisations with beliefs wildly divergent from reality usually ends badly.

This is why racists should be kept from any sort of power, anywhere, in any capacity.

Whatever, it's just mudslinging at this point. Go try to start a space exploration company that hires blacks to all roles at proportion of population, and assigns them real non-duplicated tasks rather than makework.

Individual or shared? Individual environment = noise.

Shared environment 29%.

Mmm. So even with your cherrypicking, you are asserting 71% to my 100%. Does not seem like such a large difference to me.

[Albrenia]

That line about space agencies really sounds small-minded, HMS.

[Conserative Morality]

I didn't claim self-control was linked to racism.

I didn't say you did, but I suppose I should be used to this bullshit by now.

Whatever, it's just mudslinging at this point. Go try to start a space exploration company that hires blacks to all roles at proportion of population, and assigns them real non-duplicated tasks rather than makework.

Already have, boyo. It's called "NASA".

Shared environment 29%.

Mmm. So even with your cherrypicking, you are asserting 71% to my 100%. Does not seem like such a large difference to me.[/quote]
No, I'm asserting 44% to your 100%, since you said, and I quote

According to twin studies, it's really just biology and randomness. Transferring money to people or educating them differently or changing their family and home environment has near zero effect on life outcomes like income and criminality.

But hey, who needs to remember what you've said when you can just deny it again and again and again no matter how many times it's thrown back in your face. The Trump tactic to the rescue I suppose.

[Senkaku]

That line about space agencies really sounds small-minded, HMS.

Just that line...?

I mean, I think that's kinda the point, though.

[Albrenia]

That line about space agencies really sounds small-minded, HMS.

Just that line...?

I mean, I think that's kinda the point, though.

I think someone who was just -really- focused on biology would quibble about stats based on various human factors. I don't mind that, as long as it's scientific and not used to justify real-world oppressions.

Yet the whole 'go hire some blacks and see how it goes!' just screams pure racism though, which is unfortunate.

[Post War America]

Really? I've never felt unsafe in DC, and I've wandered the streets at night before.

Some parts (e.g. Anacostia) are dodgy even in daylight.

To be fair, that part of town is crawling with Feral Ghouls.

[Tekeristan]

As a ruralite, going to D.C was saddening. Homelessness and a close encounter with a druggie begger. :/