Is Diversity and Multiculturalism a Good or Bad Thing?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I don't support that scary stuff.

Yeah, just like there's a tax for being Muslim

Where is there a tax on being Muslim.

Zakah, also, I misspoke there. Zakah is not something Muslims pay for being Muslim, it's an obligation as mandated by Allah (SWT). Same for jizyah. Both are used for the same purpose in Al-Islam: to build up an Islamic nation.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-ab ... tizenship/
This conversation seems to be straying into a different territory, should we go to the Islamic Discussion Thread?

[Petrasylvania]

Better to quarantine those savages out of sight, out of mind than give their people exposure to new ideas that may precipitate an evolution in cultural attitudes, clearly.

"New ideas"

Yeah, we stopped whipping people for religious reasons a while ago. Maybe that's something you want to experiment with but I'm not down with my nation having such nonsense.

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

"New ideas"

Yeah, we stopped whipping people for religious reasons a while ago. Maybe that's something you want to experiment with but I'm not down with my nation having such nonsense.

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

>The Middle East is the same bastion of reason it was a millennium ago

[Washington Resistance Army]

"New ideas"

Yeah, we stopped whipping people for religious reasons a while ago. Maybe that's something you want to experiment with but I'm not down with my nation having such nonsense.

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

IIRC the largest kick to get the renaissance rolling was the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and the resulting exodus of thinkers and literature to the west.

[Genivaria]

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

IIRC the largest kick to get the renaissance rolling was the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and the resulting exodus of thinkers and literature to the west.

That was the single biggest factor yes.
The fall of the Christian gateway to Europe allowed the classics to breath life into Europe.

[San Lumen]

Im sorry?

Again, all cultures are not equal, some are good and some are shit.

What defines a good culture to you?

[Thervingia]

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

>The Middle East is the same bastion of reason it was a millennium ago

Only if count Jordan, Egypt, and Israel; the other countries would lower the average significantly.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Again, all cultures are not equal, some are good and some are shit.

What defines a good culture to you?

That's a self-explanatory answer.

[Ultramarr]

Again, all cultures are not equal, some are good and some are shit.

What defines a good culture to you?

A sophisticated culture with a high value civilisation such as Europe and the west and parts of Asia. A cannibal tribe in the amazon is inferior to for example Austrian culture

[Ultramarr]

Oh right, the Renaissance happened because Europeans kept out dirty foreigners and dirty foreign ideas. Better follow the example of World War Z and build a huge wall to keep those savage zombies foreigners out for good.

IIRC the largest kick to get the renaissance rolling was the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and the resulting exodus of thinkers and literature to the west.

Oh yes the East Roman/Byzantium exiles. What happened to the empire and the fall of Constantinople was so sad

[Hammer Britannia]

Im sorry?

Again, all cultures are not equal, some are good and some are shit.

Mhm.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

IIRC the largest kick to get the renaissance rolling was the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and the resulting exodus of thinkers and literature to the west.

Oh yes the East Roman/Byzantium exiles. What happened to the empire and the fall of Constantinople was so sad

When the "Crusaders" captured and sacked the city before establishing a puppet state ruled by a Catholic emperor? I agree. It was quite sad.

[Ultramarr]

Oh yes the East Roman/Byzantium exiles. What happened to the empire and the fall of Constantinople was so sad

When the "Crusaders" captured and sacked the city before establishing a puppet state ruled by a Catholic emperor? I agree. It was quite sad.

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

[Shaggtopia]

Again, all cultures are not equal, some are good and some are shit.

What defines a good culture to you?

Compassion, civic responsibility, encourages autonomy, encourages innovation, provides opportunities to explore and express the self, inclusive > exclusive (for there will always be gatekeepers.), transparent in motivation and action, non-compulsory, and like bamboo (flexible but strong.)

[Post War America]

When the "Crusaders" captured and sacked the city before establishing a puppet state ruled by a Catholic emperor? I agree. It was quite sad.

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

The Ottomans actually took steps to preserve elements of Byzantine culture. The "Latin Empire" was a farce, that led to the interminable decline of Byzantine Constantinopolis and of the Empire in general. In fact one could say that the Ottomans merely finished what the Latins started in regards to the Byzantine Empire.

[The Eternal Aulus]

When the "Crusaders" captured and sacked the city before establishing a puppet state ruled by a Catholic emperor? I agree. It was quite sad.

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

What the Ottomans did was the most beautiful thing ever. Really, way better than the Byzantine Empire.

[Ultramarr]

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

The Ottomans actually took steps to preserve elements of Byzantine culture. The "Latin Empire" was a farce, that led to the interminable decline of Byzantine Constantinopolis and of the Empire in general. In fact one could say that the Ottomans merely finished what the Latins started in regards to the Byzantine Empire.

The Ottomans did rape and murder the Byzantines although it was the "Latin empire's" fault that the Byzantium was left so weak to lose to the Ottomans

[Al-Ismailiyya]

When the "Crusaders" captured and sacked the city before establishing a puppet state ruled by a Catholic emperor? I agree. It was quite sad.

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

Was it? When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople, there are plenty of accounts of how they raped nuns, pillaged churches and convents, took/destroyed numerous artifacts like the Horses of Saint Mark (which are still in Venice today), the statue of Hercules by Lysippos (the court sculptor of Alexander the Great), and destroyed the Great Library of Constantinople. Then there was the later partition of the empire where Venice took 3/8 and the rest of given to other Crusader lords. Not to mention the $120,000,000 worth of silver that was taken. Then all of the Eastern Orthodox clergy was replaced with Catholic ones.

Now, compare that to the Ottomans where the looting lasted for the same amount of time (after which the Sultan shed tears over what he had done; don't think Dandolo felt too bad over what he did), all Christians were allowed to return home and remain there and the Sultan ordered that the houses and property of those who had fled be returned, the Greek Orthodox Church was left intact and the Patriarchate maintained power, and the city later went on to become the capital of an empire larger than the Romans' and one of the most properous cities in the world for several hundred more years.

But 'muh ebil Muslims', right?

[Washington Resistance Army]

The Ottomemes and Venice never should have existed.

[Holy Tedalonia]

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

Was it? When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople, there are plenty of accounts of how they raped nuns, pillaged churches and convents, took/destroyed numerous artifacts like the Horses of Saint Mark (which are still in Venice today), the statue of Hercules by Lysippos (the court sculptor of Alexander the Great), and destroyed the Great Library of Constantinople. Then there was the later partition of the empire where Venice took 3/8 and the rest of given to other Crusader lords. Not to mention the $120,000,000 worth of silver that was taken. Then all of the Eastern Orthodox clergy was replaced with Catholic ones.

Now, compare that to the Ottomans where the looting lasted for the same amount of time (after which the Sultan shed tears over what he had done; don't think Dandolo felt too bad over what he did), all Christians were allowed to return home and remain there and the Sultan ordered that the houses and property of those who had fled be returned, the Greek Orthodox Church was left intact and the Patriarchate maintained power, and the city later went on to become the capital of an empire larger than the Romans' and one of the most properous cities in the world for several hundred more years.

But 'muh ebil Muslims', right?

To be fair, the crusaders were excommunicated by the Pope for them attacking a catholic city, and pretty much became a merc army at that point. Then went to Constantinople where if they helped a dude becoming emperor he would pay them money. All was goo until that emperor got overthrown leaving a bunch of angry Catholics without pay.

Imagine being hired for a year, but since your employer was fired your also fired.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

The Ottomemes and Venice never should have existed.

I don't know. Venice is a pretty cool city and the Serene Republic did have an interesting history.

[Ultramarr]

That was horrible too but what the Ottomans did was even sadder

Was it? When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople, there are plenty of accounts of how they raped nuns, pillaged churches and convents, took/destroyed numerous artifacts like the Horses of Saint Mark (which are still in Venice today), the statue of Hercules by Lysippos (the court sculptor of Alexander the Great), and destroyed the Great Library of Constantinople. Then there was the later partition of the empire where Venice took 3/8 and the rest of given to other Crusader lords. Not to mention the $120,000,000 worth of silver that was taken. Then all of the Eastern Orthodox clergy was replaced with Catholic ones.

Now, compare that to the Ottomans where the looting lasted for the same amount of time (after which the Sultan shed tears over what he had done; don't think Dandolo felt too bad over what he did), all Christians were allowed to return home and remain there and the Sultan ordered that the houses and property of those who had fled be returned, the Greek Orthodox Church was left intact and the Patriarchate maintained power, and the city later went on to become the capital of an empire larger than the Romans' and one of the most properous cities in the world for several hundred more years.

But 'muh ebil Muslims', right?

Then the Ottomans later committed the Greek genocide in all the Byzantine lands in Asia minor, castrated the boys and kidnapped women as sex slaves and kidnapped little boys as janissaries or child soldiers and during the Latin empire the city's inhabitants weren't all killed or forced to leave while modern day Constantinople/Istanbul when I went there(I liked Turkey now but when they invaded the Byzantines it was horrible) has no Byzantine/Greek left

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Was it? When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople, there are plenty of accounts of how they raped nuns, pillaged churches and convents, took/destroyed numerous artifacts like the Horses of Saint Mark (which are still in Venice today), the statue of Hercules by Lysippos (the court sculptor of Alexander the Great), and destroyed the Great Library of Constantinople. Then there was the later partition of the empire where Venice took 3/8 and the rest of given to other Crusader lords. Not to mention the $120,000,000 worth of silver that was taken. Then all of the Eastern Orthodox clergy was replaced with Catholic ones.

Now, compare that to the Ottomans where the looting lasted for the same amount of time (after which the Sultan shed tears over what he had done; don't think Dandolo felt too bad over what he did), all Christians were allowed to return home and remain there and the Sultan ordered that the houses and property of those who had fled be returned, the Greek Orthodox Church was left intact and the Patriarchate maintained power, and the city later went on to become the capital of an empire larger than the Romans' and one of the most properous cities in the world for several hundred more years.

But 'muh ebil Muslims', right?

To be fair, the crusaders were excommunicated by the Pope for them attacking a catholic city, and pretty much became a merc army at that point. Then went to Constantinople where if they helped a dude becoming emperor he would pay them money. All was goo until that emperor got overthrown leaving a bunch of angry Catholics without pay.

Imagine being hired for a year, but since your employer was fired your also fired.

Yeah. When I get fired, I go burn down one of the greatest cities on earth and rape a nun. There was no "to be fair" about it.

[Al-Ismailiyya]

Was it? When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople, there are plenty of accounts of how they raped nuns, pillaged churches and convents, took/destroyed numerous artifacts like the Horses of Saint Mark (which are still in Venice today), the statue of Hercules by Lysippos (the court sculptor of Alexander the Great), and destroyed the Great Library of Constantinople. Then there was the later partition of the empire where Venice took 3/8 and the rest of given to other Crusader lords. Not to mention the $120,000,000 worth of silver that was taken. Then all of the Eastern Orthodox clergy was replaced with Catholic ones.

Now, compare that to the Ottomans where the looting lasted for the same amount of time (after which the Sultan shed tears over what he had done; don't think Dandolo felt too bad over what he did), all Christians were allowed to return home and remain there and the Sultan ordered that the houses and property of those who had fled be returned, the Greek Orthodox Church was left intact and the Patriarchate maintained power, and the city later went on to become the capital of an empire larger than the Romans' and one of the most properous cities in the world for several hundred more years.

But 'muh ebil Muslims', right?

Then the Ottomans later committed the Greek genocide in all the Byzantine lands in Asia minor, castrated the boys and kidnapped women as sex slaves and kidnapped little boys as janissaries or child soldiers and during the Latin empire the city's inhabitants weren't all killed or forced to leave while modern day Constantinople/Istanbul when I went there(I liked Turkey now but when they invaded the Byzantines it was horrible) has no Byzantine/Greek left

Yeah, let me explain what the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was. Greece and Turkey agreed to mutually deport citizens of each other's ethnicity. As for the Greek Genocide itself, that was horrible and definitely should be condemned. But that was, ya know, 500 years after the period we are discussing.