to end this lies and disscussion for ever

[Conserative Morality]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

[Chumblywumbly]

well tell me do you liars remember who forced us to grow opium and who started that opium war and why and which sepoys did you use

I was unaware that any poster here on NS was involved in the the occupation of India.

[Jedi 999]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

[Conserative Morality]

I was unaware that any poster here on NS was involved in the the occupation of India.

Well, you know, I was just a kid, I heard all that 'For Queen and Country' bit, I kind of got shipped over to India....

[Conserative Morality]

liars

Prove that they forced to grow Opium.

[Tagmatium]

well tell me do you liars remember who forced us to grow opium and who started that war

The Opium wars were with China, not India.

fool but which troops were used? where did you get the opium from ? who did you force to grow opium

There's probably no need to resort to name calling...

than answer my questions

We're not some sort of hive-mind. Again, I might point out that not all British people think the empire was a good thing.

The reason I won't is because I can't.

I don't know that much about Indian history, which is why I've not voiced my opinion on it. I don't wish to display my ignorance on that subject. I find Indian history pretty interesting, but there are other areas which I like more.

And I've said that the opium came from India, as that is something I know.

[Birnadia]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

[Angleter]

I'll just repost this for emphasis, as it was taken from your previous thread;

According to this map, shortly before the Bengal famine you mentioned, India was a very divided place. Kingdoms, principalities and smaller states were constantly carving out territory in what were most likely fierce internecine conflicts. (Another thing you fail to address in your anti-colonial tirade) These conflicts had been going on for millenia, dating all of the way back to the first Muslim invasions back in the twelfth century, (If memory serves) and showed no intention of slowing down. Had the British (Or any other colonial power, for that matter) not gotten involved in the subcontinent at all, come the turn of the 21st century, I would no doubt think that India would be a collection of small, tribal-tied states bitterly fighting over resources.

Though colonialism has wrought terrible, terrible things onto the subcontinent, (And even in places like my home country, Canada) simply glossing it over as 'evil' and accusing us Anglo-Saxons of being 'racist' is ignoring a significant piece of the puzzle. History cannot be seen in black-or-white, it has to be appreciated and understood for the murky shade of grey it is, warts and all.

In conclusion, even though the British did terrible things to India and the subcontinent, they did give them two important things. The first is a lingua franca, English, that practically everyone, from Sri Lanka to Islamabad, had to learn in order to function in a British-dominated society. Secondly, the British presence itself served as an enormous motivator; everyone, whether they were Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Christian, they all disliked the British and wanted independance.

In short, if the British hadn't colonized India, it would be a largely tribal, violent and undeveloped place, with nations largely based upon ethnic or religious divides constantly bickering with one another and little hope of meaningful unity.

well the british stirred up anti-hindu /anti-muslim sentiments and thus played some role in the partition not major but minor and if the british had not been their many things could have happend

And of course Muslims and Hindus lived in perfect harmony up to then. States weren't defined by religion, Mughals didn't marginalise Hindus and Marathas didn't marginalise Muslims. Of course, religious hatred came with the British.

[Dododecapod]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

No, quite true. Opium was (and is) a valuable crop that grows well in poor soil and drought conditions. It made much more money than anything else - if anything, the British tended to have a surplus of the stuff to sell on, as so many farmers wanted to grow it and increase their wealth.

[SD_Film Artists]

you cant be racist towards colonizers

What does that even mean?

You can't be racist towards postmen either, since they're not a race.

it means the colonizer (in this case british) thinks the colonized are there for the welfare of mother country and therefore inferior human beings

There's nothing inferior about joining a wider movement. And colonialism is such a broad word that you can't slap any one meaning on it; other than 'populating/ruling another land'.

[Jedi 999]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

its the truth and you are not telling the truth the fact is britain did force do you know what colonialism is btw

[Crabulonia]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

That's almost as good as his one "you can't be racist against colonizers".

[Jedi 999]

you cant be racist towards colonizers

What does that even mean?

You can't be racist towards postmen either, since they're not a race.

it means the colonizer (in this case british) thinks the colonized are there for the welfare of mother country and therefore inferior human beings

There's nothing inferior about joining a wider movement. And colonialism is such a broad word that you can't slap any one meaning on it; other than 'populating/ruling another land'.

what wider movement

[Jedi 999]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

That's almost as good as his one "you can't be racist against colonizers".

you cant cause the colonizers think your inferior read fannon

[Tagmatium]

Jedi 999,

I'd be grateful if you were to answer this post, as you wanted me to answer your's

viewtopic.php?p=1714950#p1714950

[The Parkus Empire]

its the truth and you are not telling the truth the fact is britain did force do you know what colonialism is btw

A foreign government which considers itself superior to the native government, so it assumes power of the area.

[Jedi 999]

I'll just repost this for emphasis, as it was taken from your previous thread;

According to this map, shortly before the Bengal famine you mentioned, India was a very divided place. Kingdoms, principalities and smaller states were constantly carving out territory in what were most likely fierce internecine conflicts. (Another thing you fail to address in your anti-colonial tirade) These conflicts had been going on for millenia, dating all of the way back to the first Muslim invasions back in the twelfth century, (If memory serves) and showed no intention of slowing down. Had the British (Or any other colonial power, for that matter) not gotten involved in the subcontinent at all, come the turn of the 21st century, I would no doubt think that India would be a collection of small, tribal-tied states bitterly fighting over resources.

Though colonialism has wrought terrible, terrible things onto the subcontinent, (And even in places like my home country, Canada) simply glossing it over as 'evil' and accusing us Anglo-Saxons of being 'racist' is ignoring a significant piece of the puzzle. History cannot be seen in black-or-white, it has to be appreciated and understood for the murky shade of grey it is, warts and all.

In conclusion, even though the British did terrible things to India and the subcontinent, they did give them two important things. The first is a lingua franca, English, that practically everyone, from Sri Lanka to Islamabad, had to learn in order to function in a British-dominated society. Secondly, the British presence itself served as an enormous motivator; everyone, whether they were Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Christian, they all disliked the British and wanted independance.

In short, if the British hadn't colonized India, it would be a largely tribal, violent and undeveloped place, with nations largely based upon ethnic or religious divides constantly bickering with one another and little hope of meaningful unity.

well the british stirred up anti-hindu /anti-muslim sentiments and thus played some role in the partition not major but minor and if the british had not been their many things could have happend

And of course Muslims and Hindus lived in perfect harmony up to then. States weren't defined by religion, Mughals didn't marginalise Hindus and Marathas didn't marginalise Muslims. Of course, religious hatred came with the British.

it increased with the brits and the marathas were secular

[Dododecapod]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

That's almost as good as his one "you can't be racist against colonizers".

you cant cause the colonizers think your inferior read fannon

Just because one side looks down on the other does NOT mean the other side cannot look down right back.

[Jedi 999]

its the truth and you are not telling the truth the fact is britain did force do you know what colonialism is btw

A foreign government which considers itself superior to the native government, so it assumes power of the area.

correct and what does it do

[Cameroi]

the rate of increase is becoming less exponential. sorry i've never been worth a dam at keeping track of sources, but they do come mostly from jurried scientific literature.

"I can't give you a source, but I have a really good memory! So trust me! It's not like I spend most of my day talking about absolute bullshit on discussion forum and regularly misspell even the most simple of words!"

this may or may not be perfectly true, but i have no way of knowing it.
i have a reasonably good memory too, it's just not usually good at referencing names and sources.
unreliable ones i'm no great enthusiast of either.

[Tagmatium]

well tell me do you liars remember who forced us to grow opium and who started that war

The Opium wars were with China, not India.

fool but which troops were used? where did you get the opium from ? who did you force to grow opium

There's probably no need to resort to name calling...

than answer my questions

We're not some sort of hive-mind. Again, I might point out that not all British people think the empire was a good thing.

The reason I won't is because I can't.

I don't know that much about Indian history, which is why I've not voiced my opinion on it. I don't wish to display my ignorance on that subject. I find Indian history pretty interesting, but there are other areas which I like more.

And I've said that the opium came from India, as that is something I know.

[Jedi 999]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

That's almost as good as his one "you can't be racist against colonizers".

you cant cause the colonizers think your inferior read fannon

Just because one side looks down on the other does NOT mean the other side cannot look down right back.

the other side cant

[Birnadia]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

its the truth and you are not telling the truth the fact is britain did force do you know what colonialism is btw

Yes I do, FYI. It's when a countries creates colonies overseas.

[Angleter]

Aside from the tl;dr-iness of your OP, from it I found that it refers to India's greater wealth in comparison to the rest of the world pre-Britain. Well, the reason why India's share of the world's wealth decreased under British rule is simple- Europe and America moved up at a much faster rate. While India progressed at a rate much faster than its neighbours, such as the Qing Empire or Siam, other countries simply outpaced it. As I've said before, an independent India would not have been able to progress at Euro-American pace due to the corruption of the various rulers of India, the fractionalised nature of India, and the various wars for power in India taking place there before Britain came. Britain brought unity and stability, thus helping India progress.

As for famines, it is more likely that the perceived lack of famines before Britain could be due to poorer documentation, and that the greater amount of famines under British rule could be due to a population increase in India.

well we had the money we could invest it in new technologies and increased our production

OR, as seems much more likely, the Nizam of Hyderabad and his hundreds of counterparts could have 'invested' it in their own personal wealths and in their armies, thus keeping their populaces from rebelling.

the populace could have rebeled like against the kings if they tried such stuff we dont know what could have happend but britain stole lots of money as shown in the op and my old links

Rebelled? Only if they were literate or starving, and if the military was weak. Of course, we could have seen the odd Communist dictatorship and ethnic-based state, but the status quo would most likely have been maintained well into the 20th century.

well tell me do you liars remember who forced us to grow opium and who started that opium war and why and which sepoys did you use

I was unaware that any poster here on NS was involved in the the occupation of India.

Well I was Governor of Berar during the 1870s, so...

[Dododecapod]

Opium was grown in India, though.

Yeah, but they were never forced to grow Opium.

liars

Nice counter-argument.

That's almost as good as his one "you can't be racist against colonizers".

you cant cause the colonizers think your inferior read fannon

Just because one side looks down on the other does NOT mean the other side cannot look down right back.

the other side cant

Of course they can. Put a Black supremacist and a White supremacist in the same room and watch them try to out snooty each other.