Antifa listed as a terrorist organisation in New Jersey

[Kramania]

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

Just because somebody's a fascist doesn't necessarily mean he/she's also a Nazi.

Fascism is a more broad term covering right wing authoritarianism. Nazism is only one school of thought.

Well, two really. Strasserism and Hitler's Nazism.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yes, that's why I made a large post explaining them.
I engaged, and in good faith. You misunderstood the basic point of my argument. I explained to you what it was. You accuse me of dodging the issue.
*shrug*

I tried.
What freedom restricting policies do I allegedly support? I completely disavowed the snooper's charter, which a glance through the various UK Politics Threads will demonstrate I have a complete disdain for that has been universally and consistently applied.

I also rail against authoritarian socialism (which should be a self-explanatory term), the kind advocated by the Soviet Union and other places to which Marxist-Leninist ideology was exported.
I do not support Marxist-Leninism.

I support democratic socialism. I support expanding the suffrage. I support ending arbitrary mass surveillance.
I developed, earlier in the year, anarchist sympathies.

What "freedom-restricting" policies do I allegedly support?

"Dangerous socialism" is a very specific in-joke in the UK Politics Threads where a poster imitating a far-right position would decry any social-democratic measure or public expenditure as "dangerous socialism", a phrase that most of the thread chose to adopt. You can probably tell this if you just click the quote link.

You made a large post covering your ass. You didn't try to argue in good faith; you rarely do when called out.

I do, and I have. I phrased my original post to be taken very literally at its word as typed. I explained that was its exact intended meaning.

*shrug*

You believe in the rape culture meme;

Yep.

destruction of the right to a trial,

How?

changing the standard of evidence,

How?

hate speech laws,

Yes, hate speech is a bad thing.

the list goes on.

And?

I know what the in joke was, that's why I used it in that manner against you. :^)

But that just makes it a completely meaningless jab, in or out of context.
You're just saying words, they don't have connection to what you're accusing me of or what I'm saying now.

[Imperializt Russia]

Just because somebody's a fascist doesn't necessarily mean he/she's also a Nazi.

Fascism is a more broad term covering right wing authoritarianism. Nazism is only one school of thought.

Well, two really. Strasserism and Hitler's Nazism.

There's a reason why Strasserism is omitted from "Nazism".

Has a lot to do with Strasser being assassinated and his politics being erased from the Nazi movement following the Röhm-Putsch.

[The East Marches II]

You made a large post covering your ass. You didn't try to argue in good faith; you rarely do when called out.

I do, and I have. I phrased my original post to be taken very literally at its word as typed. I explained that was its exact intended meaning.

*shrug*

You believe in the rape culture meme;

Yep.

destruction of the right to a trial,

How?

changing the standard of evidence,

How?

hate speech laws,

Yes, hate speech is a bad thing.

the list goes on.

And?

I know what the in joke was, that's why I used it in that manner against you. :^)

But that just makes it a completely meaningless jab, in or out of context.
You're just saying words, they don't have connection to what you're accusing me of or what I'm saying now.

The rape culture nonsense, people like you got the standard evidence changed at unis. Of course, hurting the poor never occurs to the middle class activist types like you that it harms them most but anything for ideology!

Of course, you don't see freedom as worth having. Hence your trust of letting the security state police speech. It's a very progressive stance of yours.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Can't tell if this is a real argument or satire.

Oh, it's real.

If we're talking about Trump, sure he's a nationalist but talking about fascism is irrelevant as he is not that.

Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

That describes a lot of ideologies, and I would say calling Trump far right is a bit of a stretch.

[San Marlindo]

They can be listed as terrorists the day they start getting into gunfights with the police, kidnapping and brainwashing their members a la Patty Hearst, or blowing up public buildings.

Otherwise, just being a group of radicals with some members who act more like a street gang is and of itself not justifiable grounds to consider them domestic terrorists.

[Imperializt Russia]

The rape culture nonsense,

It's not nonsense, it just requires a much deeper level of thought into the issue than you're willing to expend, probably because it suggests that there might be something wrong in society, and that's not an acceptable conclusion.

people like you got the standard evidence changed at unis.

Ohhhhh, so it's not me, or anything I've said, or done, or expressed outward support for, it's what "people like me" have done.
* hint this is usually called a strawman argument ":^)"

Of course, hurting the poor never occurs to the middle class activist types like you that it harms them most but anything for ideology!

Of course it doesn't, that's why I advocate a society that eliminates the middle class in favour of raising the standard of the working class and ending destitution.

Wait, something doesn't feel right here...

Of course, you don't see freedom as worth having.

"Anarchist sympathies"

Hence your trust of letting the security state police speech. It's a very progressive stance of yours.

Yes, the belief that people who incite violence and call for the arbitrary expulsion of a race, ethnic group or adherents to a religion (who are largely singled out in the public discourse due to their perceived religion on account of racial factors rather than actually based on what religious beliefs they hold) and who inflame tensions to the point when people actually carry out attacks on those groups and then apologise or outwardly praise those actions, that these people should be held to account for the actual harm they are complicit in is so un-progressive and backwards. yarp.

Personally, I don't find it hard to not violate hate speech laws.
I manage to not be a cunt and believe that all people are deserving of the same basic level of respect.

Maybe you could try it some time ":^)"

[Imperializt Russia]

Oh, it's real.
Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

That describes a lot of ideologies, and I would say calling Trump far right is a bit of a stretch.

He makes stalwart refusals to denounce white nationalist organisations and individuals, plays coy when asked about association with them, and continually retweets content produced by them.

He is pretty openly courting the far right.
He is quite far over on the economic right and his praise of extremely heavy-handed policing is at best illiberal and otherwise authoritarian.

"Far right" seems fair. He's not hugely far removed from the rhetoric of other people considered "far right" such as le Pen, Wilders and on the more toned-down end of the same rhetoric, Farage, who he is absurdly buddy with and tried to demand be made ambassador to the US.

[The East Marches II]

The rape culture nonsense,

It's not nonsense, it just requires a much deeper level of thought into the issue than you're willing to expend, probably because it suggests that there might be something wrong in society, and that's not an acceptable conclusion.

people like you got the standard evidence changed at unis.

Ohhhhh, so it's not me, or anything I've said, or done, or expressed outward support for, it's what "people like me" have done.
* hint this is usually called a strawman argument ":^)"

Of course, hurting the poor never occurs to the middle class activist types like you that it harms them most but anything for ideology!

Of course it doesn't, that's why I advocate a society that eliminates the middle class in favour of raising the standard of the working class and ending destitution.

Wait, something doesn't feel right here...

Of course, you don't see freedom as worth having.

"Anarchist sympathies"

Hence your trust of letting the security state police speech. It's a very progressive stance of yours.

Yes, the belief that people who incite violence and call for the arbitrary expulsion of a race, ethnic group or adherents to a religion (who are largely singled out in the public discourse due to their perceived religion on account of racial factors rather than actually based on what religious beliefs they hold) and who inflame tensions to the point when people actually carry out attacks on those groups and then apologise or outwardly praise those actions, that these people should be held to account for the actual harm they are complicit in is so un-progressive and backwards. yarp.

Personally, I don't find it hard to not violate hate speech laws.
I manage to not be a cunt and believe that all people are deserving of the same basic level of respect.

Maybe you could try it some time ":^)"

Yes you've expressed support for the idea before in the feminist uni threads. Your record of progressive support for the break down of the rights of defendants is on record.

Of course you think you advocate for such a society. I bet you think you're helping the average person too when you increase conviction rates. Many misguided middle class uni types like you believe they are helping. Alas the shame is you only harm the poor. If only you weren't so disconnect by your privilege.

Of course and in your willingness to believe that you will trust that duty to Theresa May's security. Ironic given you just criticized it before. So do you support the security state or don't you? It's so tough to tell.

Please stop culturally appropriating my symbol, as a brown person, you have to give me special rights to my symbol. You said so in the UN cultural appropriation thread :^)

[United Muscovite Nations]

That describes a lot of ideologies, and I would say calling Trump far right is a bit of a stretch.

He makes stalwart refusals to denounce white nationalist organisations and individuals, plays coy when asked about association with them, and continually retweets content produced by them.

He is pretty openly courting the far right.
He is quite far over on the economic right and his praise of extremely heavy-handed policing is at best illiberal and otherwise authoritarian.

"Far right" seems fair. He's not hugely far removed from the rhetoric of other people considered "far right" such as le Pen, Wilders and on the more toned-down end of the same rhetoric, Farage, who he is absurdly buddy with and tried to demand be made ambassador to the US.

He did denounce those organizations, publicly: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469

I retweet LABORWAVE, does that make me a Marxist?

What "far right"? A decade ago, much of what he was saying was moderate, and even democrats called for stricter immigration enforcement.

Bill Clinton introduced one of the most heavy-handed policing policies in US history, and Barack Obama expanded an illegal surveillance state.

Farage definitely wouldn't be considered far right in the United States.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's not nonsense, it just requires a much deeper level of thought into the issue than you're willing to expend, probably because it suggests that there might be something wrong in society, and that's not an acceptable conclusion.
Ohhhhh, so it's not me, or anything I've said, or done, or expressed outward support for, it's what "people like me" have done.
* hint this is usually called a strawman argument ":^)"
Of course it doesn't, that's why I advocate a society that eliminates the middle class in favour of raising the standard of the working class and ending destitution.

Wait, something doesn't feel right here...
"Anarchist sympathies"
Yes, the belief that people who incite violence and call for the arbitrary expulsion of a race, ethnic group or adherents to a religion (who are largely singled out in the public discourse due to their perceived religion on account of racial factors rather than actually based on what religious beliefs they hold) and who inflame tensions to the point when people actually carry out attacks on those groups and then apologise or outwardly praise those actions, that these people should be held to account for the actual harm they are complicit in is so un-progressive and backwards. yarp.

Personally, I don't find it hard to not violate hate speech laws.
I manage to not be a cunt and believe that all people are deserving of the same basic level of respect.

Maybe you could try it some time ":^)"

Yes you've expressed support for the idea before in the feminist uni threads. Your record of progressive support for the break down of the rights of defendants is on record.

Of course you think you advocate for such a society. I bet you think you're helping the average person too when you increase conviction rates. Many misguided middle class uni types like you believe they are helping. Alas the shame is you only harm the poor. If only you weren't so disconnect by your privilege.

Of course and in your willingness to believe that you will trust that duty to Theresa May's security. Ironic given you just criticized it before. So do you support the security state or don't you? It's so tough to tell.

Please stop culturally appropriating my symbol, as a brown person, you have to give me special rights to my symbol. You said so in the UN cultural appropriation thread :^)

My picture is right fucking there next to my name.

[The East Marches II]

Yes you've expressed support for the idea before in the feminist uni threads. Your record of progressive support for the break down of the rights of defendants is on record.

Of course you think you advocate for such a society. I bet you think you're helping the average person too when you increase conviction rates. Many misguided middle class uni types like you believe they are helping. Alas the shame is you only harm the poor. If only you weren't so disconnect by your privilege.

Of course and in your willingness to believe that you will trust that duty to Theresa May's security. Ironic given you just criticized it before. So do you support the security state or don't you? It's so tough to tell.

Please stop culturally appropriating my symbol, as a brown person, you have to give me special rights to my symbol. You said so in the UN cultural appropriation thread :^)

My picture is right fucking there next to my name.

What did he mean by this?

[Katganistan]

I don't care, we do not have any fun names like "Californian". I mean, I could have said "Person of New Jersey Residence" lol
There's no fun with our demonyms.

Hence why most of us never mention it an nod and move on silently gnashing our teeth at people that have easy ones.

Jerseyite?

Generally as a New Yorker, I say of you folks, 'he's from Jersey.'.

[Liriena]

I'd like to think that what I do is try to understand their point of view, and not just limit myself to clutching pearls and pontificating about liberal democratic values and "da law". Moral condemnation of vandalism and assault is great, but it's not particularly useful beyond signalling that you too, like most other people living in liberal democracies, believe in the rule of law.

"I don't make excuses for the Nazis, I just try to understand their point of view."

Ah, yes, antifascists are functionally equivalent to Nazis.

There's a line between trying to understand a point of view and making excuses for their violence. And you've crossed that line with your refusal to even so much as burp out a condemnation of their violence. You are completely morally bankrupt.

Except that the underlined is false, as per many of my previous posts, so your melodramatic accusation that I'm "completely morally bankrupt" falls flat.

And yes, I know they aren't Nazis. They just use Nazi-style Brownshirt tactics against their opponents.

If you think beating people and smashing windows are a Brownshirt invention, I need to have a word with your History teachers.

[Imperializt Russia]

My picture is right fucking there next to my name.

What did he mean by this?

You called me a brown person. I am clearly white as shit.
If you're claiming to be a "brown person" yourself, then clearly you actually owe special rights to Aelex since he's been using it a lot longer than you.

Despite railing at how I'm not arguing in good faith (despite giving thorough explanations of my arguments and point-by-point responses), you are not arguing in good faith at all.
I posted nothing more than that, because there is no point. You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. You've just thrown out vague, meaningless accusations at me.
"You hate freedom because of this, this and this! Freedom!"

It's like being at a McCarthyist show trial. Put down the booze, I know it's Secession Day or whatever, but calm the shit down, man.

[Seangoli]

Yes you've expressed support for the idea before in the feminist uni threads. Your record of progressive support for the break down of the rights of defendants is on record.

Technically speaking, the Universities in such cases are not acting as a court of law, and as such typical rights of accused don't apply given that said rights only apply to the state in criminal matter.

[Katganistan]

I don't know, Alex, but throwing a creampie at some Canadian dude is not terrorism.

That depends on what the "creampie" is made of *nods*

No. Just no.

[Liriena]

That depends on what the "creampie" is made of *nods*

No. Just no.

How lewd.

[The East Marches II]

Yes you've expressed support for the idea before in the feminist uni threads. Your record of progressive support for the break down of the rights of defendants is on record.

Technically speaking, the Universities in such cases are not acting as a court of law, and as such typical rights of accused don't apply given that said rights only apply to the state in criminal matter.

They used to use a higher standard until good progressives like yourself ensured they lowered that bar via blackmail from the federal government. But hey, punishing poor kids for feminism in the only places they can manage is a good thing right? Not like they can afford the lawyers to sue when they are railroaded.

[The East Marches II]

What did he mean by this?

You called me a brown person. I am clearly white as shit.
If you're claiming to be a "brown person" yourself, then clearly you actually owe special rights to Aelex since he's been using it a lot longer than you.

Despite railing at how I'm not arguing in good faith (despite giving thorough explanations of my arguments and point-by-point responses), you are not arguing in good faith at all.
I posted nothing more than that, because there is no point. You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. You've just thrown out vague, meaningless accusations at me.
"You hate freedom because of this, this and this! Freedom!"

It's like being at a McCarthyist show trial. Put down the booze, I know it's Secession Day or whatever, but calm the shit down, man.

I said I was the brown person as it was my symbol. Did you read the statement properly? Unlike some in the States, I don't believe in transracialism if that is the other way you meant to go with it. :^) - culturally unique symbol of the TEM tribe.

[Imperializt Russia]

Technically speaking, the Universities in such cases are not acting as a court of law, and as such typical rights of accused don't apply given that said rights only apply to the state in criminal matter.

They used to use a higher standard until good progressives like yourself ensured they lowered that bar via blackmail from the federal government. But hey, punishing poor kids for feminism in the only places they can manage is a good thing right? Not like they can afford the lawyers to sue when they are railroaded.

I'm loving the reach here, where the idea that "raping people is bad" has run the course to the point that people now seriously claim "feminism and socialism are harming poor students at universities who commit rape and questionable sexual conduct because the standard of proof for a business that cannot apply criminal charges was lowered"

They're not the criminal court.

[Imperializt Russia]

You called me a brown person. I am clearly white as shit.
If you're claiming to be a "brown person" yourself, then clearly you actually owe special rights to Aelex since he's been using it a lot longer than you.

Despite railing at how I'm not arguing in good faith (despite giving thorough explanations of my arguments and point-by-point responses), you are not arguing in good faith at all.
I posted nothing more than that, because there is no point. You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. You've just thrown out vague, meaningless accusations at me.
"You hate freedom because of this, this and this! Freedom!"

It's like being at a McCarthyist show trial. Put down the booze, I know it's Secession Day or whatever, but calm the shit down, man.

I said I was the brown person as it was my symbol. Did you read the statement properly? Unlike some in the States, I don't believe in transracialism if that is the other way you meant to go with it. :^) - culturally unique symbol of the TEM tribe.

"You never respond in good faith"

-you

[The East Marches II]

They used to use a higher standard until good progressives like yourself ensured they lowered that bar via blackmail from the federal government. But hey, punishing poor kids for feminism in the only places they can manage is a good thing right? Not like they can afford the lawyers to sue when they are railroaded.

I'm loving the reach here, where the idea that "raping people is bad" has run the course to the point that people now seriously claim "feminism and socialism are harming poor students at universities who commit rape and questionable sexual conduct because the standard of proof for a business that cannot apply criminal charges was lowered"

They're not the criminal court.

"Lowering standards of conviction in a school trial won't harm the poor". They don't have recourse to fight the overwhelming resources of the University. Unless you mean to tell me that the recent batch of fake rape charges wasn't made up. It's not socialism, it's your middle class disconnected view of it. That and feminism which causes this gap in understanding. I won't hold your privilege against you though, you just need more education.

[The East Marches II]

I said I was the brown person as it was my symbol. Did you read the statement properly? Unlike some in the States, I don't believe in transracialism if that is the other way you meant to go with it. :^) - culturally unique symbol of the TEM tribe.

"You never respond in good faith"

-you

It's ok room admit that you were wrong.

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm loving the reach here, where the idea that "raping people is bad" has run the course to the point that people now seriously claim "feminism and socialism are harming poor students at universities who commit rape and questionable sexual conduct because the standard of proof for a business that cannot apply criminal charges was lowered"

They're not the criminal court.

"Lowering standards of conviction in a school trial won't harm the poor". They don't have recourse to fight the overwhelming resources of the University. Unless you mean to tell me that the recent batch of fake rape charges wasn't made up. It's not socialism, it's your middle class disconnected view of it. That and feminism which causes this gap in understanding. I won't hold your privilege against you though, you just need more education.

Schools don't hold trials, they don't level convictions. They're not courts.
This also isn't anything to do with socialism, but OK.

"Recent batch of fake rape charges"
Yes, fake rape charges exist in the same way that false filing of any crime occurs. But you and "people like you" seem to hold the opinion that a sizeable proportion of all rape accusations are fake because... reasons.
It isn't, it is of course very low. Obviously 1 is too many, as with any false filing of a crime, as it is quite literally an attack on a person's character.

You see the thing about privilege is, you accept you have it and the impact it has on your reasoning - I've not failed to do that, and I take it into account when I make arguments. I refine them in my head, repeatedly.