Antifa listed as a terrorist organisation in New Jersey

[The East Marches II]

Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

[Mongeley]

Alt-right live action roleplayers are the best thing about the new political climate.

Then you have people LARPing as revolutionaries.

I thought I'd seen the pinnacle of edge with the rogues at some D&D games.

"Our" people are listed as a terrorist organisation. Street cred.

[Liriena]

It's apparently been effective on occasion, according to antifa publications. Plus, it's given us this.

Your apologism for Antifa is disgusting. I have no patience for you.

A bit melodramatic. Also, maybe you should read some of my previous posts on this matter, because you seem to be under the impression that I unironically condone every act of violence ever committed in the name of antifa.

[The East Marches II]

No bait, just a pattern where you support policies which stab workers in the back. Anti-fa blocks public transportation which costs average people their hours at work. People who are most likely on a tight budget to begin with and they in an act of profound disconnection, decide the best action to gain support is to bleed their wallets. The same people they claim to "protect" from "fascism".

I'd say your mistake lies in the assumption that antifa's actions are aimed at increasing their own popularity, that their blocking of public transportation is some sort of incompetent PR move. Parting from the basis that many of those who participate in antifa are anarchists, meaning that their actions are probably not guided by a need to gain popularity (with the ultimate goal being winning an election) but by the idea of fixing social, political and economic problems through praxis (actually doing something other than trying to pander to everyone). You may argue, however, that blocking transportation doesn't really do any practical good, beyond the poor PR involved, and that's not an unfair argument to make.

The what good does blocking public transportation do part I would have thought was obvious. If Anti-fa is waging a political campaign against fascists, then I would have thought support of the average people is something that they'd strive for. Alas, you are correct in that I overestimated them. I forgot how badly they to tend fail historically due to the inherent flaws in their ideas. Spain 2.0 it seems.

[Randsbeik]

Then you have people LARPing as revolutionaries.

I thought I'd seen the pinnacle of edge with the rogues at some D&D games.

"Our" people are listed as a terrorist organisation. Street cred.

"Street cred".

ISIS and the KKK are listed as terrorist organizations too, what's your point?

[Liriena]

Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

This is getting a bit too mud-flingy for my tastes.

Do I consider the United States as a whole an outright fascist state? Nah. Even at its worst and most authoritarian, it's still a liberal democracy (albeit one with some severe structural problems).

Do I consider Trump a fascist? As I said before, I think he incidentally espouses views that could be associated with fascism, but lacks the intelligence, commitment and coherence to be an actual fascist ideologue.

Do I consider his supporters fascist? Some of them openly, unironically are fascists; others are just conservatives or reactionaries or libertarians. I think that, in many cases, the same thing that happens with Trump himself applies to some of his supporters: they hold individual ideas that could be considered fascist, but don't seem to hold those ideas within an overarching, coherent and even somewhat structured ideology.

[Kramania]

All these Antifa sympathizers.

How's that political violence working out for you?

Is America a fascist state?

Judging by the hysterical shrieking over Trump you'd think so.

[Randsbeik]

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

This is getting a bit too mud-flingy for my tastes.

Do I consider the United States as a whole an outright fascist state? Nah. Even at its worst and most authoritarian, it's still a liberal democracy (albeit one with some severe structural problems).

Do I consider Trump a fascist? As I said before, I think he incidentally espouses views that could be associated with fascism, but lacks the intelligence, commitment and coherence to be an actual fascist ideologue.

Do I consider his supporters fascist? Some of them openly, unironically are fascists; others are just conservatives or reactionaries or libertarians. I think that, in many cases, the same thing that happens with Trump himself applies to some of his supporters: they hold individual ideas that could be considered fascist, but don't seem to hold those ideas within an overarching, coherent and even somewhat structured ideology.

Well, part of that is that Fascism, contrary to popular belief, is more centrist and contains elements from all across the spectrum. Both you and I probably have some beliefs that line up with fascist ideology.

[Kramania]

Your apologism for Antifa is disgusting. I have no patience for you.

A bit melodramatic. Also, maybe you should read some of my previous posts on this matter, because you seem to be under the impression that I unironically condone every act of violence ever committed in the name of antifa.

You make excuses for it.

[Ifreann]

Is America a fascist state?

Judging by the hysterical shrieking over Trump you'd think so.

So that's a no. I guess their political violence is working.

[The East Marches II]

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

This is getting a bit too mud-flingy for my tastes.

Do I consider the United States as a whole an outright fascist state? Nah. Even at its worst and most authoritarian, it's still a liberal democracy (albeit one with some severe structural problems).

Do I consider Trump a fascist? As I said before, I think he incidentally espouses views that could be associated with fascism, but lacks the intelligence, commitment and coherence to be an actual fascist ideologue.

Do I consider his supporters fascist? Some of them openly, unironically are fascists; others are just conservatives or reactionaries or libertarians. I think that, in many cases, the same thing that happens with Trump himself applies to some of his supporters: they hold individual ideas that could be considered fascist, but don't seem to hold those ideas within an overarching, coherent and even somewhat structured ideology.

It was not directed at you Liri, you made clear your position earlier in the thread and I do agree with it.

[Kramania]

Judging by the hysterical shrieking over Trump you'd think so.

So that's a no. I guess their political violence is working.

You can't be serious.

[The East Marches II]

Judging by the hysterical shrieking over Trump you'd think so.

So that's a no. I guess their political violence is working.

Just like the IRA keeps Northern Ireland from Ulster oppression. Their violence must be working.

[Liriena]

A bit melodramatic. Also, maybe you should read some of my previous posts on this matter, because you seem to be under the impression that I unironically condone every act of violence ever committed in the name of antifa.

You make excuses for it.

I'd like to think that what I do is try to understand their point of view, and not just limit myself to clutching pearls and pontificating about liberal democratic values and "da law". Moral condemnation of vandalism and assault is great, but it's not particularly useful beyond signalling that you too, like most other people living in liberal democracies, believe in the rule of law.

[Liriena]

This is getting a bit too mud-flingy for my tastes.

Do I consider the United States as a whole an outright fascist state? Nah. Even at its worst and most authoritarian, it's still a liberal democracy (albeit one with some severe structural problems).

Do I consider Trump a fascist? As I said before, I think he incidentally espouses views that could be associated with fascism, but lacks the intelligence, commitment and coherence to be an actual fascist ideologue.

Do I consider his supporters fascist? Some of them openly, unironically are fascists; others are just conservatives or reactionaries or libertarians. I think that, in many cases, the same thing that happens with Trump himself applies to some of his supporters: they hold individual ideas that could be considered fascist, but don't seem to hold those ideas within an overarching, coherent and even somewhat structured ideology.

It was not directed at you Liri, you made clear your position earlier in the thread and I do agree with it.

[Ifreann]

So that's a no. I guess their political violence is working.

You can't be serious.

Can't I? Fascinating.

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

Absolutely sickening.
Pure capitalist fascism. What about rabid right wing militias?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwZhFUZFGGE
None of them being arrested!

[Imperializt Russia]

Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

What binman jokes, what dogs? What total lack of rights at a trial?

It's important to note that I didn't actually call the US a fascist state. It's not, of course, but it has many senior politicians who have seemingly fascist sympathies.

My words were, "how many fascist state indicators it ticks off". America shares many indicators of fascist states and societies. It's frankly funny, but merely emblematic to how the US political establishment has absolutely no ideological opposition to fascism, merely fascism of certain flavours and ones in the pursuit of interests conflicting with their own.

But I also didn't say that Americans were therefore fascists for living in a state that resembles a partly fascist society. I didn't even imply that for having, as I put it, senior politicians with seemingly fascist sympathies.
So your jab of "what about your snoopers charter, huh, HUH?!" makes little to no sense. I oppose that. The political party of my preference (and several others beside) oppose that policy. The EU opposes that policy.
But yes, it's a blatant indicator of an authoritative state (no surprise given it's from Theresa goddamn May), and if a modern fascist state actually existed, it would certainly have that policy.

So...?

[The East Marches II]

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

What binman jokes, what dogs? What total lack of rights at a trial?

It's important to note that I didn't actually call the US a fascist state. It's not, of course, but it has many senior politicians who have seemingly fascist sympathies.

My words were, "how many fascist state indicators it ticks off". America shares many indicators of fascist states and societies. It's frankly funny, but merely emblematic to how the US political establishment has absolutely no ideological opposition to fascism, merely fascism of certain flavours and ones in the pursuit of interests conflicting with their own.

But I also didn't say that Americans were therefore fascists for living in a state that resembles a partly fascist society. I didn't even imply that for having, as I put it, senior politicians with seemingly fascist sympathies.
So your jab of "what about your snoopers charter, huh, HUH?!" makes little to no sense. I oppose that. The political party of my preference (and several others beside) oppose that policy. The EU opposes that policy.
But yes, it's a blatant indicator of an authoritative state (no surprise given it's from Theresa goddamn May), and if a modern fascist state actually existed, it would certainly have that policy.

So...?

You know exactly what you meant and now you try to argue semantics to extract yourself from it. Just like "unironically", you can't be asked to engage when proven wrong.

It does make sense because while you fling accusations of fascism, you yourself support freedom restricting policies. Of course that's ok because it's for your "dangerous socialism".

[TrustMe]

Richard Spencer doesn't violently attack people, while antifa does

I'm sorry, but I find that standard unacceptable. We can clutch our pearls at antifa protestors macing and punching white supremacists as much as you wish, but there's no way you're going to convince me that those assaults are somehow more concerning and more worthy of being regarded as a terrorist threat to others than a public figure openly supporting ethnic cleansing.

Richard Spencer isn't breaking the law

Why does he deserve to be punched in the face by leftist extremists if he didn't break the law?

[Imperializt Russia]

What binman jokes, what dogs? What total lack of rights at a trial?

It's important to note that I didn't actually call the US a fascist state. It's not, of course, but it has many senior politicians who have seemingly fascist sympathies.

My words were, "how many fascist state indicators it ticks off". America shares many indicators of fascist states and societies. It's frankly funny, but merely emblematic to how the US political establishment has absolutely no ideological opposition to fascism, merely fascism of certain flavours and ones in the pursuit of interests conflicting with their own.

But I also didn't say that Americans were therefore fascists for living in a state that resembles a partly fascist society. I didn't even imply that for having, as I put it, senior politicians with seemingly fascist sympathies.
So your jab of "what about your snoopers charter, huh, HUH?!" makes little to no sense. I oppose that. The political party of my preference (and several others beside) oppose that policy. The EU opposes that policy.
But yes, it's a blatant indicator of an authoritative state (no surprise given it's from Theresa goddamn May), and if a modern fascist state actually existed, it would certainly have that policy.

So...?

You know exactly what you meant

Yes, that's why I made a large post explaining them.

and now you try to argue semantics to extract yourself from it. Just like "unironically", you can't be asked to engage when proven wrong.

I engaged, and in good faith. You misunderstood the basic point of my argument. I explained to you what it was. You accuse me of dodging the issue.
*shrug*

I tried.

It does make sense because while you fling accusations of fascism, you yourself support freedom restricting policies. Of course that's ok because it's for your "dangerous socialism".

What freedom restricting policies do I allegedly support? I completely disavowed the snooper's charter, which a glance through the various UK Politics Threads will demonstrate I have a complete disdain for that has been universally and consistently applied.

I also rail against authoritarian socialism (which should be a self-explanatory term), the kind advocated by the Soviet Union and other places to which Marxist-Leninist ideology was exported.
I do not support Marxist-Leninism.

I support democratic socialism. I support expanding the suffrage. I support ending arbitrary mass surveillance.
I developed, earlier in the year, anarchist sympathies.

What "freedom-restricting" policies do I allegedly support?

"Dangerous socialism" is a very specific in-joke in the UK Politics Threads where a poster imitating a far-right position would decry any social-democratic measure or public expenditure as "dangerous socialism", a phrase that most of the thread chose to adopt. You can probably tell this if you just click the quote link.

[Catochristoferson]

Oh please, America's already concerning for how many of the "fascist state indicators" it ticks off. Trump's open hostility to (and hypocrisy by later courting) the economic elites is also a hallmark of fascism, as are his constant attacks on the press.
In the sense that he and his supporters are (as Wikipedia describes fascism): "opposed to liberalism, socialism and anarchism" and on the "far-right", then surely by other arguments in this thread "the shoe fits".

Oh goodie, accusations of fascism from the guy whose country arrests people for binman jokes and dogs doing Nazi salutes. Tell us more about the snoopers charter or your total lack of rights at a trial. Are you fascist now?

Just because somebody's a fascist doesn't necessarily mean he/she's also a Nazi.

Fascism is a more broad term covering right wing authoritarianism. Nazism is only one school of thought.

[Liriena]

I'm sorry, but I find that standard unacceptable. We can clutch our pearls at antifa protestors macing and punching white supremacists as much as you wish, but there's no way you're going to convince me that those assaults are somehow more concerning and more worthy of being regarded as a terrorist threat to others than a public figure openly supporting ethnic cleansing.

Richard Spencer isn't breaking the law

Why does he deserve to be punched in the face by leftist extremists if he didn't break the law?

His actions being legal doesn't mean they should be socially tolerated.

Mind you, that doesn't mean I approve of him being assaulted as a matter of principle. Ideally, political violence wouldn't be a thing, and I'd much prefer it if we found better ways to delegitimize him and deprive him of any power or influence.

[Kramania]

You make excuses for it.

I'd like to think that what I do is try to understand their point of view, and not just limit myself to clutching pearls and pontificating about liberal democratic values and "da law". Moral condemnation of vandalism and assault is great, but it's not particularly useful beyond signalling that you too, like most other people living in liberal democracies, believe in the rule of law.

"I don't make excuses for the Nazis, I just try to understand their point of view."

There's a line between trying to understand a point of view and making excuses for their violence. And you've crossed that line with your refusal to even so much as burp out a condemnation of their violence. You are completely morally bankrupt.

And yes, I know they aren't Nazis. They just use Nazi-style Brownshirt tactics against their opponents.

[The East Marches II]

You know exactly what you meant

Yes, that's why I made a large post explaining them.

and now you try to argue semantics to extract yourself from it. Just like "unironically", you can't be asked to engage when proven wrong.

I engaged, and in good faith. You misunderstood the basic point of my argument. I explained to you what it was. You accuse me of dodging the issue.
*shrug*

I tried.

It does make sense because while you fling accusations of fascism, you yourself support freedom restricting policies. Of course that's ok because it's for your "dangerous socialism".

What freedom restricting policies do I allegedly support? I completely disavowed the snooper's charter, which a glance through the various UK Politics Threads will demonstrate I have a complete disdain for that has been universally and consistently applied.

I also rail against authoritarian socialism (which should be a self-explanatory term), the kind advocated by the Soviet Union and other places to which Marxist-Leninist ideology was exported.
I do not support Marxist-Leninism.

I support democratic socialism. I support expanding the suffrage. I support ending arbitrary mass surveillance.
I developed, earlier in the year, anarchist sympathies.

What "freedom-restricting" policies do I allegedly support?

"Dangerous socialism" is a very specific in-joke in the UK Politics Threads where a poster imitating a far-right position would decry any social-democratic measure or public expenditure as "dangerous socialism", a phrase that most of the thread chose to adopt. You can probably tell this if you just click the quote link.

You made a large post covering your ass. You didn't try to argue in good faith; you rarely do when called out.

You believe in the rape culture meme; destruction of the right to a trial, changing the standard of evidence, hate speech laws, the list goes on.

I know what the in joke was, that's why I used it in that manner against you. :^)