Is Death in Combat Glorious?

[Infected Mushroom]

Fighting to the last man is about as glorious as it can get. It is the ultimate sacrifice.

No, it is a senseless waste of the most precious thing in the world, human life. There's no glory in dying like insects for a lost cause. Valuing the lives of those under your command and surrendering to preserve those lives is glorious, however.

so you would mutiny?

[Torrocca]

So where are the paintings of the regiments who broke and ran?

Probably with the films of two minute buddy cop shootouts and then 128 minutes of procedural paperwork. It is called artistic license. On its own, reality makes for boring art. Embellishment is part and parcel of creating interesting art.

That you would use an idealized painting of the bloody, miserable affair of war to hold up the false notion that retreating is inglorious is a little puzzling. The painting you posted is as representative of real warfare as a Jackie Chan movie is of real martial arts.

Bingo.

To say retreating is inglorious is to say you neither know the true nature of warfare nor the mentalities of the men fighting war.

Retreating is a very, very common thing and even has tactical and strategic importance. Hell, defense in depth was a tactic developed by the Germans in WWI that used retreating as a tactical advantage to lure the Allies into more heavily fortified positions.

[Minzerland II]

We wouldn't get very far if we always took into consideration whether an action was pointless or not.

Eh, maybe.

Then again, we might do a lot more things with specific purpose instead of pointless bullshit.

*looks in mirror, arguing on nationstates*

Yeah.

In any case, Humans act pointlessly all the time. Humans often try to survive a situation which seems pointless, but we continue even though the likelihood of survival is slim. Why continue when you probably won't survive? Another example, why try to resist a tyrannical government when you'll most likely be squashed? Why, because your pointless efforts could come to fruition.

[Constantinopolis]

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Depends, but either way it's tragic.

Unless the ones dying are Nazis. Or Terrorists.

[Genivaria]

The only way I can think that someone could think war is glorious is if they believed in some kind of warrior heaven like Valhalla or Sovngarde.

[Scomagia]

No, it is a senseless waste of the most precious thing in the world, human life. There's no glory in dying like insects for a lost cause. Valuing the lives of those under your command and surrendering to preserve those lives is glorious, however.

so you would mutiny?

Having never been in combat, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know what I would do in that position. If I were the commanding officer, however, I can definitely say that I would not order my men to essentially kill themselves for a lost objective. Surrender is a perfectly acceptable option in that circumstance and would not constitute "mutiny".

[Infected Mushroom]

so you would mutiny?

Having never been in combat, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know what I would do in that position. If I were the commanding officer, however, I can definitely say that I would not order my men to essentially kill themselves for a lost objective. Surrender is a perfectly acceptable option in that circumstance and would not constitute "mutiny".

it would be mutiny though if you were a subordinate and your commanding officer ordered you launch a final assault and you refused

[The Two Jerseys]

So where are the paintings of the regiments who broke and ran?
(Image)

Probably with the films of two minute buddy cop shootouts and then 128 minutes of procedural paperwork. It is called artistic license. On its own, reality makes for boring art. Embellishment is part and parcel of creating interesting art.

That you would use an idealized painting of the bloody, miserable affair of war to hold up the false notion that retreating is inglorious is a little puzzling. The painting you posted is as representative of real warfare as a Jackie Chan movie is of real martial arts.

When did I ever say that retreating is inglorious? I said "running away" is inglorious.

There is a difference.

[Fartsniffage]

There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had neither food nor money, they had neither service nor trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

They felt that life was fleeting; they knew not that art was long,
That though they were dying of famine, they lived in deathless song.
They asked for a little money to keep the wolf from the door;
And the thirty million English sent twenty pounds and four !

They laid their heads together that were scarred and lined and grey;
Keen were the Russian sabres, but want was keener than they;
And an old Troop-Sergeant muttered, "Let us go to the man who writes
The things on Balaclava the kiddies at school recites."

They went without bands or colours, a regiment ten-file strong,
To look for the Master-singer who had crowned them all in his song;
And, waiting his servant's order, by the garden gate they stayed,
A desolate little cluster, the last of the Light Brigade.

They strove to stand to attention, to straighen the toil-bowed back;
They drilled on an empty stomach, the loose-knit files fell slack;
With stooping of weary shoulders, in garments tattered and frayed,
They shambled into his presence, the last of the Light Brigade.

The old Troop-Sergeant was spokesman, and "Beggin' your pardon," he said,
"You wrote o' the Light Brigade, sir. Here's all that isn't dead.
An' it's all come true what you wrote, sir, regardin' the mouth of hell;
For we're all of us nigh to the workhouse, an' we thought we'd call an' tell.

"No, thank you, we don't want food, sir; but couldn't you take an' write
A sort of 'to be continued' and 'see next page' o' the fight?
We think that someone has blundered, an' couldn't you tell 'em how?
You wrote we were heroes once, sir. Please, write we are starving now."

The poor little army departed, limping and lean and forlorn.
And the heart of the Master-singer grew hot with "the scorn of scorn."
And he wrote for them wonderful verses that swept the land like flame,
Till the fatted souls of the English were scourged with the thing called Shame.

They sent a cheque to the felon that sprang from an Irish bog;
They healed the spavined cab-horse; they housed the homeless dog;
And they sent (you may call me a liar), when felon and beast were paid,
A cheque, for enough to live on, to the last of the Light Brigade.

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food to-night;
Our children's children are lisping to "honour the charge they made - "
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade!

[Torrocca]

so you would mutiny?

Having never been in combat, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know what I would do in that position. If I were the commanding officer, however, I can definitely say that I would not order my men to essentially kill themselves for a lost objective. Surrender is a perfectly acceptable option in that circumstance and would not constitute "mutiny".

Speaking from a similar sort of perspective, I'd also have to think it'd depend more on the circumstances. Is your defense of this objective a delaying action as part of the bigger picture, so that others on your side can escape to safety themselves? If so, I feel, if I was in a position of command handling this type of situation, I'd be hard-pressed to surrender. If it wasn't, though, and it was just to hold some ground? I don't know. There's no way to say how any order or action could be made with these kinds of hypotheticals.

[Genivaria]

No, it is a senseless waste of the most precious thing in the world, human life. There's no glory in dying like insects for a lost cause. Valuing the lives of those under your command and surrendering to preserve those lives is glorious, however.

so you would mutiny?

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

[The East Marches II]

so you would mutiny?

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

Meme view of history tbh, please don't perpetuate myths thank you.

[Purpelia]

There is nothing glorious about anything relating to war. We just tell soldiers that there is so that they will be willing to die for us.
It's a rather simple exchange, really. On their side, soldiers agree that, should war happen, they will go and fight and potentially die in it. And on our part we agree that if they do so we will pretend that what they are doing is something great and honorable and treat them as if it was. And even though both sides know we are lying it does not matter because acting as if something is true is just as good as it being true.

And the reason why it is that way is because soldiers need to rationalize away the fact that they are engaging in organized murder as well as be motivated to actually go through with it. And acting as if they are some sort of noble profession achieves both of this by helping them pretend that what they are doing is not wrong (for rationalizing) and actually treating them as some sort of honorable elite to be respected (for motivation).

It's that simple really.

[Infected Mushroom]

so you would mutiny?

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

but wouldn't that be friendly fire?

[The Holy Therns]

Having never been in combat, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know what I would do in that position. If I were the commanding officer, however, I can definitely say that I would not order my men to essentially kill themselves for a lost objective. Surrender is a perfectly acceptable option in that circumstance and would not constitute "mutiny".

it would be mutiny though if you were a subordinate and your commanding officer ordered you launch a final assault and you refused

Would you shove your face up your superior officer's behind if they gave the order?

[Genivaria]

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

Meme view of history tbh, please don't perpetuate myths thank you.

What myths do you think I'm perpetuating exactly? You should probably include that.

[Genivaria]

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

but wouldn't that be friendly fire?

Yes and?

[Chestaan]

The idea of gaining "glory" through combat s dangerous. Its exactly the type of thing that gets people to become gung ho about starting wars or acting like a dickhead when in a wartime situation.

[Infected Mushroom]

but wouldn't that be friendly fire?

Yes and?

isn't it against the rules?

[The East Marches II]

Meme view of history tbh, please don't perpetuate myths thank you.

What myths do you think I'm perpetuating exactly? You should probably include that.

You'd never survive 10 attempts :^)

Please forgive me, I know that was lame but I got a sensible chuckle regardless.

[Scomagia]

Having never been in combat, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know what I would do in that position. If I were the commanding officer, however, I can definitely say that I would not order my men to essentially kill themselves for a lost objective. Surrender is a perfectly acceptable option in that circumstance and would not constitute "mutiny".

it would be mutiny though if you were a subordinate and your commanding officer ordered you launch a final assault and you refused

I already told you that I (unlike many in this thread) lack the fundamental conceit to pretend to know what I would do in that situation. A multitude of factors would be in play, some of which I can academically understand right now and many which I cannot. I might mutiny, obey, or abandon my post. It's impossible to say which from the comfort of my motel room bed.

[Infected Mushroom]

it would be mutiny though if you were a subordinate and your commanding officer ordered you launch a final assault and you refused

Would you shove your face up your superior officer's behind if they gave the order?

they wouldn't order that sort of thing, it wouldn't be professional

[Genivaria]

What myths do you think I'm perpetuating exactly? You should probably include that.

You'd never survive 10 attempts :^)

I never said I would've.
Considering the artillery, sniper fire, regular rifle fire, and heavy machine guns over several kilometers over open field I don't think most survive the 1 attempt.

So I'm not really insulted.

But just so we're clear here, I've not perpetuated any myths.

[The Two Jerseys]

If I were one of the sad louts in the trenches on the Western Front and being told to go over the top after the last 10 times failed to achieve a breakthrough, I'd like to think that my officer would get fragged.
By me.
I would shoot him.

but wouldn't that be friendly fire?

No, that would be straight-up murder.