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In what cases is a dictatorship justified

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Imperium Sidhicum
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In what cases is a dictatorship justified

Postby Imperium Sidhicum » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:16 pm

Since I've noticed there's a lot of ardent freedom-loving democrats here on NSG, this leads me to pose a question - in what cases, if any, is the imposition of a dictatorship justified?

---

Let's use a fictional Third World-nation of Bananistan as an example.

Bananistan is, for all practical means and purposes, a typical Third World "developing" country - low GDP, low HDI, widespread poverty, crime and corruption, lack of infrastructure and basic utilities, ethnic division and tensions, warlordism and general lawlesness in the more remote regions, economic dependence on a few cash crop and natural resource exports. The people of Bananistan used to suffer under a brutal and corrupt dictator before his regime was overthrown in a bloody civil war. For the past decade, Bananistan has been trying to build some semblance of democracy (courtesy of Uncle Sam and his carrier battlegroup off Bananistani coast), but success has been rather limited. The government is weak owing to the bickering of political parties led by corrupt oligarchs, what few officials remain incorrupt are either young and naive idealists kept away from any real power by the entrenched elite, and they too have little idea on how to run a state, the only people with any real experience in statecraft being the former officials of the previous dictatorial government. Separatist movements have formed in the border regions, the warlords and crime barons also largely ignore the central government, and at times it seems that the aforementioned carrier battlegroup protecting business interests of Western corporations is the only thing keeping Bananistan from falling apart in (yet another) civil war.

There is a powerful and well-respected general in the country who has the interest, the knowledge and the means to stage a coup and overthrow the present ineffective, but lawful democratic government. He commands the loyalty of the army and has supporters among all ethnic groups. He is also supported by a number of the old regime's most experienced officials. He promises his followers to end corruption and lawlesness, crack down harshly on crime, revitalize economy and launch broad social programs to alleviate poverty and promote education - but on the condition that his absolute authority be recognized.

---

Now, it is quite obvious that the people of Bananistan are incapable of governing themselves, as the present miserable state of their country attests. Having no experience with self-government, they cannot be expected to start up a functional democracy out of nowhere, and especially not when the majority of the population cannot meet even their most basic needs. For their country to survive, it needs a strong leader and an administration that has at least some clue of what they're doing and why.

I think that for democracy to function, a certain degree of prosperity must be attained first before such form of government can even be considered. People cannot be expected to look out for the needs of their nation when they are preoccupied with looking out each for their own, as a matter of survival and also a matter of habit. So I think the people of Bananistan need to be governed with an iron fist for at least two more generations, the said fist only very gradually loosening it's grip before a proper democracy with multiple political parties can even be considered.

Let's hear your thoughts on the matter, NSG!
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:20 pm

A dictatorship is justified if its being led by real life counterparts to people like Erwin Smith, Eddard Stark, or Queen Ashe of the Freljord. In such a case, dictatorship > democracy.

Its a grey area at best in all other cases. The majority is ill-equipped to make decisions or choose a leader for the most part. Democracy's akin to running a country like a high school popularity contest (except where you give real power to the prom queen).

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:44 pm

I'm going to go with never. I can't think of a single historical example of a dictatorship that I would have considered justified.
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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:48 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:A dictatorship is justified if its being led by real life counterparts to people like Erwin Smith, Eddard Stark, or Queen Ashe of the Freljord. In such a case, dictatorship > democracy.

Its a grey area at best in all other cases. The majority is ill-equipped to make decisions or choose a leader for the most part. Democracy's akin to running a country like a high school popularity contest (except where you give real power to the prom queen).

Very few cases of real life people having the same attributes as fictional characters. Also, Ned lost his head.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

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No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
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Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Grinning Dragon
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Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:49 pm

Never
/end of line
/end thread.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:50 pm

Sovaal wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:A dictatorship is justified if its being led by real life counterparts to people like Erwin Smith, Eddard Stark, or Queen Ashe of the Freljord. In such a case, dictatorship > democracy.

Its a grey area at best in all other cases. The majority is ill-equipped to make decisions or choose a leader for the most part. Democracy's akin to running a country like a high school popularity contest (except where you give real power to the prom queen).

Very few cases of real life people having the same attributes as fictional characters. Also, Ned lost his head.

That's just Lannister propaganda. FAKE NEWS! SAD! MAKE WESTEROS GREAT AGAIN!
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:51 pm

Liriena wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Very few cases of real life people having the same attributes as fictional characters. Also, Ned lost his head.

That's just Lannister propaganda. FAKE NEWS! SAD! MAKE WESTEROS GREAT AGAIN!

KING IN DA NORF!!
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:51 pm

I'm a staunch supporter of liberal democracy, but in countries plagued by war, turmoil, or general instability, dictators have at least been effective in keeping said countries together.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:52 pm

Sovaal wrote:
Liriena wrote:That's just Lannister propaganda. FAKE NEWS! SAD! MAKE WESTEROS GREAT AGAIN!

KING QUEEN IN DA NORF!!

#SansaFTW :p
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:53 pm

Liriena wrote:
Sovaal wrote:KING QUEEN IN DA NORF!!

#SansaFTW :p

#Legitimization
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Hyggemata
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Postby Hyggemata » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:53 pm

In many cases. Most corporations and militaries are dictatorships. In some cultural groups, families are dictatorships. Even in democracies, the people (the whole body) is a dictator, and the government serves its desires. In individual ministries, the minister is a dictator, and the civil servants his servants.

Democracy =\= anarchy. In any type of government, there needs to be someone who ultimately makes the decision.
Last edited by Hyggemata on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:56 pm

When the Aequi and Sabine threaten your city.

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Keldros
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Postby Keldros » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:57 pm

Governments exist to provide for the common good. If a democratic or republican government fails to do that - see the Roman Republic circa 100 to 50 BC - then a dictatorship is both justified and likely inevitable.

If you don't want fascism, don't be Weimar.

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:59 pm

In answering OP's question, only in that an elected leader should be given emergency powers in a crisis, and of which where such power would be relinquished, if force if need be, afterwards.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Aevaelon
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Postby Aevaelon » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:10 pm

Theorically speaking I'd say that the best case for a dictatorship is if that is built on the roman model of the "dictator": a well-experienced leader which can (hopefully) be trusted, is granted absolute power on all aspects of the nation for a limited timeframe (Rome had its standard duration at six months) or until a crisis is resolved; historically that happened for several reasons, chiefly during the war with Carthage and Hannibal.

To bring that to our hypothesis I'd say that our "good general" shall be granted such powers for a minimum of five years, 'cause the situation in the country is quite dire on multiple aspects; that means he can use whatever measure he sees fit without anyone interfering. In modern world we could have some kind of "international observers" to ensure it is not brought to excessive violence but in your case, with warlords and all, the only possible response is an armed one.
Apart from keeping the nation together he should receive international support in order to build (during his term) the basic infrastructures (roads, hospitals and the like) and ensure the population receive the basic comodities (a place where to sleep, food, basic healthcare and so on).

Should five years prove to be inadequate I'd extend his term for another five but no more than that otherwise it becomes an absolute monarchy. I'd also support him to reform the state to have it become some sort of constitutional monarchy (possibly held by him and his family, should he be sufficiently popular) in order to bring a symbol in which the nation can recognise itself; the alternative is to design a specific role for him after his term, something that is still very prestigious but hold little power/threat to a democratic government (like the roman "Pater Patriae" title, father of the nation)
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San Bolsapaja
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Postby San Bolsapaja » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:32 pm

Keldros wrote:Governments exist to provide for the common good. If a democratic or republican government fails to do that - see the Roman Republic circa 100 to 50 BC - then a dictatorship is both justified and likely inevitable.

If you don't want fascism, don't be Weimar.

You mean don't have a civil service that is filled to the brim with secret and not-so-secret monarchists and fascists? Good advice.

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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:41 pm

In the past democratic leaders weren't held to the same standards as they are today. People like Eleftherios Venizelos, for example, boycotted the elections and staged a coup during the National Schism. Freedom House probably would have classified Venizelos's Greece on the same tier of democracy as Kyrgyzstan if he still were around today.

Since democracy isn't an ideal system in the first place, and not every nation has the right civil society to support democracy, I believe it's acceptable for elected leaders to go around repressing their opposition as long as they: have implementing a true liberal democracy as their long-term goal, don't commit too much electoral fraud, and actually are competent at running things. Not dictatorship, but not real democracy either. For about a year I lived in a country which had such "competitive authoritarian" leadership for almost a decade. Even though said "authoritarian" leader is widely hated right now, it's very doubtful the place would be as successful and democratic without him.

In a similar way this well-respected general ought refrain from entertaining his authoritarian tendencies, then provoke early elections with mass protests, and then send his coalition to victory in the polls. Once in office he'd first go about taking out all the oligarchs, warlords, and separatist, all the while implementing neoliberal reforms to attract foreign direct investment. In turn the opposition gets unfair fines slapped on them, perhaps measures such as a higher vote threshold requirement in legislative elections too. In the future, when the people grow to dislike their undemocratic leader, he can escape to somewhere with the tacit ignorance of Interpol while his comrades get locked up by the newly elected opposition government.

edit: typo w/I
Last edited by Improved werpland on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Ryanasic
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Postby Ryanasic » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:53 pm

If the country is in a dire situation a "dictator" like Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is needed to get the country together

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Union of Despotistan
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Postby Union of Despotistan » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:55 pm

When the democratic bureaucracy completely stops any kind of change or reform in a point that politician's careers die systematically when they attempt any change.
Some bloated "democracies" we have in occident have this problem. A bureaucrat is not an elected official and Must lisent and obey their elected representatives.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:08 pm

As a transitional government, such as when the populaces culture and traditions are not suited to democratic governance due to having not been exposed to them or their ideas and institutions.

They should be trained up, along with officials trained up, over a period of time, preferably as short as possible without endangering the project.

First electing on a township level, with imposed officials (foreign if necessary) every level above that, dealing with local issues, and electing each tier upward each subsequent election cycle, preferably from candidates who excel in the field below instead of those of the previous regime. (National elections where the candidates are going to be former-secret-police-chief or former-economic-slavedriver aren't exactly the best democracy has to offer.)

As the occupying power cedes political offices to the populace, it could also feasibly be withdrawing occupying forces on a timescale. The transfer of power to the locals must be understood and seen to be occurring in order for good relations after.

The first national elections could result in a kind of dominion status for the country, with some constitutional powers kept by the foreign power, but the right to assert those constitutional rights should be accepted by referendum.

The constitution being written for the country by the occupying democracy is acceptable, provided it is ammendable by the populace.

Other examples:

Suddenly, during the Blair era, there is a military coup in the united kingdom.
A general is going around and arresting/executing government officials related to torture crimes or who signed off on it or etc.
they present a timeline by which the caretaker government will hold elections in two years, until which, the military is in charge.
They cite their duty to prevent and punish as the title deed to their reign, and the extent to which the government had been overrun with war criminals.
(When a democracy orders a military to systemically commit warcrimes, that military is justified in installing a military dictatorship transitional government.)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Rusozak
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rusozak » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:15 pm

Well, you could always make the argument of the populace nolonger being educated or responsible enough to be trusted to elect the leadership.
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:18 pm

Never. There are circumstances when unelected centralised power might be justifiable (IE in the brief intervening period between the coup d'etat and the first election.), but in all those cases one would hope that the power would be in the hands of a group of people, rather than an individual.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:22 pm

Philjia wrote:Never. There are circumstances when unelected centralised power might be justifiable (IE in the brief intervening period between the coup d'etat and the first election.), but in all those cases one would hope that the power would be in the hands of a group of people, rather than an individual.


Sometimes a general might be appointed to an area who is in effect a dictator, but can be recalled by the foreign occupying democracy. I dunno if you'd class that as "A group of people" and, importantly for western tradition and political philosophy, the general is also subject to the rule of law in the form of international law. An individual does not rule, the law does, and the individual must navigate it or amend.

I'd say the rule of law distinction would make any case of dictatorship unjustifiable, despite my previous post. Power can be centralized to an extreme in some circumstances and justified, you're right.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Astaliah
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Postby Astaliah » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:29 pm

Of course it is important what type of government a nationstate has, and how it is chosed, and as a democrat I favour a government chosen by the people. However I think it is more important what an administration does to improve the lives of its citizens, its internationalism and its attitude towards our environment. I personally would prefer an undemocratically elected leader who serves his people diligently, who creates a 5 star health service, 5 star education service, an eviromental attitude towards OUR environment that an elected idiot like our lovely orange President Trump.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:31 pm

Dictatorship is justified under the same conditions any other form of government is. And those conditions are that it does the primary duties of government and does them well. These duties are, in no particular order:
- Keeping order and the rule of law
- Protecting the people, government and the system it self from threats, both foreign and domestic in both a defensive and offensive manner
- Providing a good quality of life to its citizens

A dictatorship that does these and does them well is better than a democracy that does not.
Last edited by Purpelia on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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