Puerto Rico: Autonomy or independence?

[Damverland]

I would prefer if the US disposes of all its territories and associated states. The less colonialism, the better.

If that is the case, then France better toss away Guiana, Guadalope, Martinique, Mayotte, Reunion, New Caledonia, etc etc.

Britain too. Give the Falklands to Argentina already, and Gibraltar to Spain.

[Brokpastan]

Agreed, 100%

F-ck colonialism too.

What if they don't want to leave or be independent?

Like, y'know, pretty much every single inhabited US territory...

I didn't want to say my ethnicity but..
I am from Puerto Rico, was born there and have Taino/Spanish blood. I want independence.

[Conserative Morality]

Puerto Rican culture will eventually be no longer.. If it becomes a USA state.

Right, this is why all across the US, wherever you go, the culture is the same state to state.

[New haven america]

What if they don't want to leave or be independent?

Like, y'know, pretty much every single inhabited US territory...

I didn't want to say my ethnicity but..
I am from Puerto Rico, was born there and have Taino/Spanish blood. I want independence.

Ok.

Doesn't change the fact that basically every territory wants to stay part of the US.

[New haven america]

Puerto Rican culture will eventually be no longer.. If it becomes a USA state.

Right, this is why all across the US, wherever you go, the culture is the same state to state.

Isn't the US considered one of the most homogenous countries in the world or something like that?

[Conserative Morality]

I didn't want to say my ethnicity but..
I am from Puerto Rico, was born there and have Taino/Spanish blood. I want independence.

Good luck with that.

Puerto Rico needs us more than we need Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico will suffer immensely economically if it severs itself from the US, while the US will see a marginal economic penalty. Not only that, but Puerto Rico's political influence on the international stage would be stronger as a voice within the US, the world's hyperpower, than as another middling island nation.

Still, if the people of Puerto Rico want it, go for independence. I just want it resolved one way or the other. This 'Commonwealth' shit is the quintessential compromise - the worst of both worlds.

[Conserative Morality]

Isn't the US considered one of the most homogenous countries in the world or something like that?

We have the advantage of having already killed off all the neighboring ethnicities. There are still significant differences between states. We just don't have, say, Bretons, or Welsh to deal with.

[Brokpastan]

Right, this is why all across the US, wherever you go, the culture is the same state to state.

Isn't the US considered one of the most homogenous countries in the world or something like that?

Even I will admit, they are probably not the most homogenous country.

But that is because of all the immigrants they hate so much.

[Aeken]

Agreed, 100%

F-ck colonialism too.

What if they don't want to leave or be independent?

Like, y'know, pretty much every single inhabited US territory...

Expanding the hegemony of the US is unnecessary. The island's stance on independence, its current status, and statehood are dubious at best. These past referendums have proved it. Both dominant parties either want the status quo or statehood. I would argue that the former is harmful, and that statehood is something that they do not need. The US should fix their debt, then release it as it should have decades ago.

As if any of that was had to happen in the first place...

I would prefer if the US disposes of all its territories and associated states. The less colonialism, the better.

If that is the case, then France better toss away Guiana, Guadalope, Martinique, Mayotte, Reunion, New Caledonia, etc etc.

Britain too. Give the Falklands to Argentina already, and Gibraltar to Spain.

Sure. If they so wish. The less dependencies, the better.

The Falklands is not culturally apart of Argentina nor does its populace desire such a connection. Gibraltar faces a similar case, with it being culturally separate from Spain and desiring a relationship with Britain. Do I think their current status is a necessary thing? Perhaps not, but that's how things are.

[Conserative Morality]

Even I will admit, they are probably not the most homogenous country.

But that is because of all the immigrants they hate so much.

You do realize that only the looniest fringes of the right will actually admit to disliking immigration as a whole, right? Immigration is still very much celebrated in the US.

EDIT: For reference, 25% is about the same proportion of Americans who believe Obama was born in Kenya.

[New haven america]

Isn't the US considered one of the most homogenous countries in the world or something like that?

Even I will admit, they are probably not the most homogenous country.

But that is because of all the immigrants they hate so much.

You realize only the far-right loonies hate immigrants, right?

Also, you're part of "They" ("They" being the US/Americans).

[AiliailiA]

What if they don't want to leave or be independent?

Like, y'know, pretty much every single inhabited US territory...

Expanding the hegemony of the US is unnecessary. The island's stance on independence, its current status, and statehood are dubious at best. These past referendums have proved it. Both dominant parties either want the status quo or statehood.

The referendums didn't prove anything besides Independence is very unpopular. Even if the referendums meant nothing at all, there's the two major parties there ... which you say yourself do not want independence.

I would argue that the former is harmful, and that statehood is something that they do not need. The US should fix their debt, then release it as it should have decades ago.

So fuck those Puerto Ricans, who cares what they want? Aeken knows what is best for them.

BTW, there are millions more Puerto Ricans than actually live there. Those would be the millions who live by choice in the United States itself. Though they haven't participated in any of the referendums, you can be pretty sure they wouldn't want Independence for PR either ... that would mean giving up their US citizenship and becoming (at best) Green Card legal residents of the US where they choose to live.

[Old Tyrannia]

Puerto Rico es arcilla Española. ¡Viva el Rey!

[Aeken]

Expanding the hegemony of the US is unnecessary. The island's stance on independence, its current status, and statehood are dubious at best. These past referendums have proved it. Both dominant parties either want the status quo or statehood.

The referendums didn't prove anything besides Independence is very unpopular. Even if the referendums meant nothing at all, there's the two major parties there ... which you say yourself do not want independence.

I would argue that the former is harmful, and that statehood is something that they do not need. The US should fix their debt, then release it as it should have decades ago.

So fuck those Puerto Ricans, who cares what they want? Aeken knows what is best for them.

BTW, there are millions more Puerto Ricans than actually live there. Those would be the millions who live by choice in the United States itself. Though they haven't participated in any of the referendums, you can be pretty sure they wouldn't want Independence for PR either ... that would mean giving up their US citizenship and becoming (at best) Green Card legal residents of the US where they choose to live.

How presumptuous to say that. Would I prefer independence? Yes. Do I claim to speak for Puerto Ricans? No. Would I wish to impose my opinion on them? No. If they want statehood or the retention of their commonwealth status so be it. But I don't believe that is the best option. I cannot say that I know better than the Puerto Ricans who live through all of this, but I personally don't see how the connection with the US is anything good.

But yes, its an unlikely thing to happen. PR is deeply connected to the US and would affect a lot of people.

[Jetan]

Puerto Rico should become a state. I think the rest of the territories should as well, though that might take a bit more wrangling.

[AiliailiA]

The referendums didn't prove anything besides Independence is very unpopular. Even if the referendums meant nothing at all, there's the two major parties there ... which you say yourself do not want independence.



So fuck those Puerto Ricans, who cares what they want? Aeken knows what is best for them.

BTW, there are millions more Puerto Ricans than actually live there. Those would be the millions who live by choice in the United States itself. Though they haven't participated in any of the referendums, you can be pretty sure they wouldn't want Independence for PR either ... that would mean giving up their US citizenship and becoming (at best) Green Card legal residents of the US where they choose to live.

How presumptuous to say that. Would I prefer independence? Yes. Do I claim to speak for Puerto Ricans? No. Would I wish to impose my opinion on them? No. If they want statehood or the retention of their commonwealth status so be it. But I don't believe that is the best option. I cannot say that I know better than the Puerto Ricans who live through all of this, but I personally don't see how the connection with the US is anything good.

But yes, its an unlikely thing to happen. PR is deeply connected to the US and would affect a lot of people.

What's presumptious is to think you know what's best for people when plainly those people don't want that.

You're backing away from it now, but right from the start you said your opinion of what is good for Puerto Ricans is based on colonialism = bad ...

I would prefer if the US disposes of all its territories and associated states. The less colonialism, the better.

OK so you started out badly on the subject. I acknowledge that your opinion is improving.

[Tasmansland]

I would prefer if the US disposes of all its territories and associated states. The less colonialism, the better.

If that is the case, then France better toss away Guiana, Guadalope, Martinique, Mayotte, Reunion, New Caledonia, etc etc.

Britain too. Give the Falklands to Argentina already, and Gibraltar to Spain.

Sure. If they so wish. The less dependencies, the better.

The Falklands is not culturally apart of Argentina nor does its populace desire such a connection. Gibraltar faces a similar case, with it being culturally separate from Spain and desiring a relationship with Britain. Do I think their current status is a necessary thing? Perhaps not, but that's how things are.[/quote]

Well, it's the same with Puerto Rico. Their people do want to stay in the US in some way, shape or form. Less than 3% support independence.

[AiliailiA]

Puerto Rico should become a state. I think the rest of the territories should as well, though that might take a bit more wrangling.

Puerto Rico has a reasonable population, a bit below median for existing states. It would be the 29th most populous, more populous than Hawaii or Alaska who were the most recent additions.

Even the District of Columbia would enter in the list rather than hanging off the bottom of it, were DC to become a state. It has more residents than Vermont or Wyoming ... though that's not saying much.

The other territories (even all together) really don't have the population. They'd be the least populous state and that right there (diluting the state voting power of other states which are all more populous) is a reason against Guam, Virgin Islands etc becoming a state ... let alone several states.

[Brokpastan]

Puerto Rico is culturally different from the USA. It has it's own unique Latin-American culture, like the Dominican Republic.

Even the main language is not the same, for instance I have family members, mostly older ones, who don't or barely speak English. Spanish was the first language for my father and all of my Puerto Rican relatives.

[Tasmansland]

Puerto Rico is culturally different from the USA. It has it's own unique Latin-American culture, like the Dominican Republic.

Even the main language is not the same, for instance I have family members, mostly older ones, who don't or barely speak English. Spanish was the first language for my father and all of my Puerto Rican relatives.

Keep in mind that this culture is fairly widespread in America, as well, from all the Hispanic immigrants.

[Jetan]

Puerto Rico should become a state. I think the rest of the territories should as well, though that might take a bit more wrangling.

Puerto Rico has a reasonable population, a bit below median for existing states. It would be the 29th most populous, more populous than Hawaii or Alaska who were the most recent additions.

Even the District of Columbia would enter in the list rather than hanging off the bottom of it, were DC to become a state. It has more residents than Vermont or Wyoming ... though that's not saying much.

The other territories (even all together) really don't have the population. They'd be the least populous state and that right there (diluting the state voting power of other states which are all more populous) is a reason against Guam, Virgin Islands etc becoming a state ... let alone several states.

Yeah, I can see the argument against it for the small island territories gaining statehood (I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the argument). DC could become one state, the pacific territories could become another, and Virgin Islands, Navassa and Puerto Rico together could form a third one (doesn't really make much administrative sense to lump the Virgin Islands and Navassa in with the Pacific territories). The populations between US states already vary so wildly I don't think the state voting power issue should prevent that - it's not like people's votes were worth the same today either.

[Thermodolia]

Neither. It's either statehood or bust.

This

[Thermodolia]

Puerto Rico is culturally different from the USA. It has it's own unique Latin-American culture, like the Dominican Republic.

Even the main language is not the same, for instance I have family members, mostly older ones, who don't or barely speak English. Spanish was the first language for my father and all of my Puerto Rican relatives.

Did you forget about the several Native American tribes that exist in the US? New Mexico is different then the rest of the US yet it's still a state.

Parts of Maine and most of south Louisiana speak French and not English yet they are states.

[AiliailiA]

Puerto Rico has a reasonable population, a bit below median for existing states. It would be the 29th most populous, more populous than Hawaii or Alaska who were the most recent additions.

Even the District of Columbia would enter in the list rather than hanging off the bottom of it, were DC to become a state. It has more residents than Vermont or Wyoming ... though that's not saying much.

The other territories (even all together) really don't have the population. They'd be the least populous state and that right there (diluting the state voting power of other states which are all more populous) is a reason against Guam, Virgin Islands etc becoming a state ... let alone several states.

Yeah, I can see the argument against it for the small island territories gaining statehood (I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the argument). DC could become one state, the pacific territories could become another, and Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico together could form a third one (doesn't really make much administrative sense to lump the Virgin Islands in with the Pacific territories). The populations between US states already vary so wildly I don't think the state voting power issue should prevent that - it's not like people's votes were worth the same today either.

Well I hate the US Senate and I've never pretended otherwise. The US is stuck with its Senate though (there's a special clause making "equal representation in the Senate" immune from further amendment) so I will always oppose making that variation of voting power worse by admitting more states at the small population end. It's not that I hate state's rights or whatever, it's quite simply that admitting another small state reduces the voting power in the Senate of the vast majority of the People. That's a big fucking deal to me, and isn't really neutralized by your argument basically "it's terrible already, so what if it gets worse?"

I actually oppose DC statehood on that basis. Also rather dubious that a state which is the dedicated seat of Federal government would be an equal of other states ... in time I think it might become more privileged than the others. Anyway, that's not the subject. I just mention it to eliminate that "population isn't disqualifying for DC" above may be taken as my personal support for DC statehood.

Her population isn't disqualifying for Puerto Rico. The population is not too small. And it's also not too big (for different reasons that would be a problem too, eg admitting all of Mexico as one state I would object to).

There may be other reasons against, and ultimately I wouldn't go with just a bare majority of Puerto Ricans resident there. I'd want a healthy majority like two thirds voting that way (in an unambiguous Yes/No referendum on it), and a poll of Puerto Ricans not resident there too, though that need not be binding. History is pretty clear that once a state, always a state and it will be binding on them and their descendants ... so let them be really sure they want it and it's not just a thing they'll try because the current arrangement isn't working out.

[Internationalist Bastard]

To my knowledge, all US territories don't want want to be independent. Make them states