NATION

PASSWORD

UK Politics Thread VII: Wake me DUP inside [can't wake UUP]

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:39 am

Hydesland wrote:
Calladan wrote:Even with the broad sweeping statement of "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles", the DUP are a bunch of religious fanatics who would set women's rights back to the stone ages, gay rights back to before the flood and would make Donald Trump look like Al Gore on the subject of climate change.


You say they're fanatics, but in the context of Northern Irish protestantism isn't this just mainstream conservatism? How different are they for instance from the UK conservatives of the 1970s, would they also be described as fanatics? I'm not going all culturally relativist - but I feel the word fanatic has implications of being vastly outside the mainstream of the parent culture, and I'm unsure that's the case for NI.

I fail to see how that isn't being relativist.

Wouldn't it be the same as saying that the Taliban aren't "vastly outside the mainstream" of their area of the middle east, rife with far-conservative Islamist governance.
The Taliban, Pakistan, Iranian conservatives etc are all broadly under the umbrella of "fanatics", to obviously differing degrees.

In any case, as I understand it, the DUP's social position is "vastly outside" what could be considered the societal norm in Northern Ireland - they're the only party keeping same-sex marriage illegal, the only party preventing abortion access, and do not line up with the views of the population at large, and seem to be kept in power by a mix of tactically voting against the nationalists and a minority of far-conservatives in Ireland able to wield far more political power than they ought really have due to the nature of our political system.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:56 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Wouldn't it be the same as saying that the Taliban aren't "vastly outside the mainstream" of their area of the middle east, rife with far-conservative Islamist governance.
The Taliban, Pakistan, Iranian conservatives etc are all broadly under the umbrella of "fanatics", to obviously differing degrees.


Okay, so let's say fanaticism isn't relative to culture, but relative to global norms instead. Are the DUP, relative to global norms, fanatics? And I don't mean in the context of the involvement of some of their former members had with unionist militias in the eighties (recall the conversation started off by talking about "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles") - I mean are they fanatics relative to global norms because of their socially conservative views?

In any case, as I understand it, the DUP's social position is "vastly outside" what could be considered the societal norm in Northern Ireland - they're the only party keeping same-sex marriage illegal, the only party preventing abortion access, and do not line up with the views of the population at large


But again, there's a difference between being more conservative than the average of the populace, and being so vastly outside the mainstream to be 'fanatical'. How do you define fanatical exactly?

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:59 am

Young-earth creationism, aside everything else, is literally Christian fanaticism. Emphasis on the part of "fanaticism" emphasising irrationality.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:06 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Young-earth creationism, aside everything else, is literally Christian fanaticism. Emphasis on the part of "fanaticism" emphasising irrationality.


Well okay, I guess we have different definitions of fanaticism. I know a few YEC Christians (it's not actually that unusual, in fact it was possibly a majority belief among Christians in the 20th century) - but I wouldn't describe them as fanatics. Fundamentalists? Sure. Evangelicals? Yes. Fanatics? Not really. Fanaticism for me implies militancy and excessive zeal, not just having quaint or unscientific views.

User avatar
Calladan
Minister
 
Posts: 3064
Founded: Jul 28, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Calladan » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:14 am

Hydesland wrote:
Calladan wrote:Even with the broad sweeping statement of "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles", the DUP are a bunch of religious fanatics who would set women's rights back to the stone ages, gay rights back to before the flood and would make Donald Trump look like Al Gore on the subject of climate change.


You say they're fanatics, but in the context of Northern Irish protestantism isn't this just mainstream conservatism? How different are they for instance from the UK conservatives of the 1970s, would they also be described as fanatics? I'm not going all culturally relativist - but I feel the word fanatic has implications of being vastly outside the mainstream of the parent culture, and I'm unsure that's the case for NI.


While that might be true, I don't really give a crap. I don't LIVE In Norther Ireland, I live in the real world where we have moved out of the dark ages and have even moved out of the 20th century, and I do not want a government I didn't vote for taking my country back into the dark ages just so some stupid old wench can hang on to power after losing an election she didn't need to call.

The UK (excluding the DUP) is relatively progressive. Even the backward-ass members of the Tory party would not consider reversing the laws on gay marriage, or the general progress made on gay/LGBT rights and so on, because they know they would get eaten alive by the majority of the population.

Same goes with abortion. While it might not be the most popular topic, or the most popular thing, I would say a fair majority support the laws the way they are, and a government that tries to change them might find themselves in a boat load of trouble.

Ditto for race relations, climate change and so on. And if we could just get the Sun Readers and other Little Englanders on board with the concept of "All Muslims are not terrorists" then no doubt religious equality would be on the same level as gay rights and racial equality.

So yeah - the DUP might be like the Tories of the 1970s, but the Tories of the 1970s realised they were doomed and learned that if they wanted to get anywhere they had to change and adapt to what the populace - what the voters - want. That's why gay marriage wasn't legal in 1970 but it is legal now.

So quite frankly, I don't care whether they are mainstream in their own little corner of the world, because their little corner of the world is their corner, not the whole country. And the idea that 10 people and their witch-burning, dark age beliefs could influence government policy for the next five years is frankly terrifying.

Hydesland wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Young-earth creationism, aside everything else, is literally Christian fanaticism. Emphasis on the part of "fanaticism" emphasising irrationality.


Well okay, I guess we have different definitions of fanaticism. I know a few YEC Christians (it's not actually that unusual, in fact it was possibly a majority belief among Christians in the 20th century) - but I wouldn't describe them as fanatics. Fundamentalists? Sure. Evangelicals? Yes. Fanatics? Not really. Fanaticism for me implies militancy and excessive zeal, not just having quaint or unscientific views.



Arlene Philips flat out REFUSES to consider changing her position on abortion. No discussion, no compromise, no debate. To me - that is a fanatic.
Last edited by Calladan on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tara A McGill, Ambassador to Lucinda G Doyle III
"Always be yourself, unless you can be Zathras. Then be Zathras"
A Rough Guide To Calladan | The Seven Years of Darkness | Ambassador McGill's Facebook Page
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, providing they are Christian & white" - Trump

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:15 am

Biblical literalism (ie fundamentalism) isn't "quaint". It kills people. By the thousands. Globally.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:17 am

Hydesland wrote:Fanaticism for me implies militancy and excessive zeal, not just having quaint or unscientific views.
Well these types of people are pretty militant. I mean, they had real close links to paramilitaries, so-ooo...
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:22 am

Calladan wrote:So quite frankly, I don't care whether they are mainstream in their own little corner of the world, because their little corner of the world is their corner, not the whole country. And the idea that 10 people and their witch-burning, dark age beliefs could influence government policy for the next five years is frankly terrifying.


I haven't seen any evidence they'll seek to (or even could) impose their views on the rest of the UK outside of NI.

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:24 am

Questers wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Fanaticism for me implies militancy and excessive zeal, not just having quaint or unscientific views.
Well these types of people are pretty militant. I mean, they had real close links to paramilitaries, so-ooo...

Holy shit how did I forget this.

The former founder of the DUP founded three fucking terrorist paramilitaries who killed Catholic civilians in the name of ethnoreligious purity.

"not fanatics"
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:25 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Biblical literalism (ie fundamentalism) isn't "quaint". It kills people. By the thousands. Globally.


Do you mean in the sense that biblical literalists are out there killing people by the thousands, or in a more abstract sense (i.e. Catholics oppose contraception, this increases the spread of STD's, therefore Catholics "kill" thousands of people every year)?

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:25 am

Hydesland wrote:
Calladan wrote:So quite frankly, I don't care whether they are mainstream in their own little corner of the world, because their little corner of the world is their corner, not the whole country. And the idea that 10 people and their witch-burning, dark age beliefs could influence government policy for the next five years is frankly terrifying.


I haven't seen any evidence they'll seek to (or even could) impose their views on the rest of the UK outside of NI.

The Tories had to seek specific assurances from CCHQ that they weren't going to let the DUP try and influence UK-wide policy.
It was seen as a realistic threat by The Nasty Party.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:26 am

Questers wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Fanaticism for me implies militancy and excessive zeal, not just having quaint or unscientific views.
Well these types of people are pretty militant. I mean, they had real close links to paramilitaries, so-ooo...


Can people please read the conversation before chiming in.

Again, I was responding to a remark that started with: "Even with the broad sweeping statement of "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles", ..."

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:29 am

Hydesland wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Biblical literalism (ie fundamentalism) isn't "quaint". It kills people. By the thousands. Globally.


Do you mean in the sense that biblical literalists are out there killing people by the thousands, or in a more abstract sense (i.e. Catholics oppose contraception, this increases the spread of STD's, therefore Catholics "kill" thousands of people every year)?

The former.

Though the latter isn't exactly an invalid argument.
While I did mean to state it, I am including indirect routes for people "killed". For example, LGBT suicides, anti-LGBT violence, death during gay conversion therapy/camps etc, as well as deaths of expectant mothers unable to seek abortions due to biblical literalism. If anything "thousands globally" is a hilarious undersell.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36652
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:30 am

Hydesland wrote:
Calladan wrote:So quite frankly, I don't care whether they are mainstream in their own little corner of the world, because their little corner of the world is their corner, not the whole country. And the idea that 10 people and their witch-burning, dark age beliefs could influence government policy for the next five years is frankly terrifying.


I haven't seen any evidence they'll seek to (or even could) impose their views on the rest of the UK outside of NI.

Well they did try to get Scotland to stop marrying same sex couples from NI living in scotland and blatantly lied about it.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 47474.html
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scary Spooky Red Mans! Ohhhh! An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Egalitarian Loyal to Dragonstone

Oh i know what it is.. Suzanna.. it is you who doth not know what i ith, for i am Man Beast. Hunter of Elk, Lover of women, Sovereign of the Moon. Oh cat got your tongue? We shall cook that cat in a salty broth, Man Beast! Ill treat your like a discuss you piece of shit! Fix my Lanyard ya fuck!

Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
Frank Zipper
Senator
 
Posts: 4207
Founded: Nov 16, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Frank Zipper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:30 am

Apparently Corbyn is set to become a really popular name for babies.
Put this in your signature if you are easily led.

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:31 am

Hydesland wrote:
Questers wrote: Well these types of people are pretty militant. I mean, they had real close links to paramilitaries, so-ooo...


Can people please read the conversation before chiming in.

Again, I was responding to a remark that started with: "Even with the broad sweeping statement of "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles", ..."

Which was a post basically saying "even if we leave out the Troubles, the DUP are fucking disgusting". The obvious point being, the DUP are hilariously fucking disgusting.

But the Troubles, y'know, happened. We can't just subtract them from reality and debate how good the DUP are without considering what literally created them.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36652
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:32 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
Can people please read the conversation before chiming in.

Again, I was responding to a remark that started with: "Even with the broad sweeping statement of "lets forget everything that happened in the troubles", ..."

Which was a post basically saying "even if we leave out the Troubles, the DUP are fucking disgusting". The obvious point being, the DUP are hilariously fucking disgusting.

But the Troubles, y'know, happened. We can't just subtract them from reality and debate how good the DUP are without considering what literally created them.

Even if the troubles never happened, the attitude of the DUP towards women and members of the LGBT community alone marks them pretty high on my list of political cunts.


Their utter disdain and arrogance towards the catholic community also makes them cunts.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scary Spooky Red Mans! Ohhhh! An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Egalitarian Loyal to Dragonstone

Oh i know what it is.. Suzanna.. it is you who doth not know what i ith, for i am Man Beast. Hunter of Elk, Lover of women, Sovereign of the Moon. Oh cat got your tongue? We shall cook that cat in a salty broth, Man Beast! Ill treat your like a discuss you piece of shit! Fix my Lanyard ya fuck!

Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36652
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:33 am

Frank Zipper wrote:Apparently Corbyn is set to become a really popular name for babies.

Not even jeremy, just Corbyn?
Scary Spooky Red Mans! Ohhhh! An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Egalitarian Loyal to Dragonstone

Oh i know what it is.. Suzanna.. it is you who doth not know what i ith, for i am Man Beast. Hunter of Elk, Lover of women, Sovereign of the Moon. Oh cat got your tongue? We shall cook that cat in a salty broth, Man Beast! Ill treat your like a discuss you piece of shit! Fix my Lanyard ya fuck!

Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
Frank Zipper
Senator
 
Posts: 4207
Founded: Nov 16, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Frank Zipper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:35 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Frank Zipper wrote:Apparently Corbyn is set to become a really popular name for babies.

Not even jeremy, just Corbyn?


Just Corbyn, the rise and rise of Jezzamania continues unabated.
Put this in your signature if you are easily led.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125897
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:36 am

Frank Zipper wrote:Apparently Corbyn is set to become a really popular name for babies.

What kind of awful parents would name their baby Corbyn?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36652
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:37 am

Ifreann wrote:
Frank Zipper wrote:Apparently Corbyn is set to become a really popular name for babies.

What kind of awful parents would name their baby Corbyn?
Dangerously socialist ones thats for sure.

Frank Zipper wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Not even jeremy, just Corbyn?


Just Corbyn, the rise and rise of Jezzamania continues unabated.
Cant stop the Jezz Mal.
Scary Spooky Red Mans! Ohhhh! An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Egalitarian Loyal to Dragonstone

Oh i know what it is.. Suzanna.. it is you who doth not know what i ith, for i am Man Beast. Hunter of Elk, Lover of women, Sovereign of the Moon. Oh cat got your tongue? We shall cook that cat in a salty broth, Man Beast! Ill treat your like a discuss you piece of shit! Fix my Lanyard ya fuck!

Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:37 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:The former.


Really? By the way almost nobody is an actual biblical literalist - you can easily see this by the fact that almost no Christians adhere to all the customs required in the bible - so it's not really coherent to talk of a singular group of 'biblical literalists', different fundamentalists in different countries have radically different beliefs from each other, and aren't all connected.

Though the latter isn't exactly an invalid argument.
While I did mean to state it, I am including indirect routes for people "killed". For example, LGBT suicides, anti-LGBT violence, death during gay conversion therapy/camps etc, as well as deaths of expectant mothers unable to seek abortions due to biblical literalism. If anything "thousands globally" is a hilarious undersell.


But this is a uselessly loose standard. There is a huge amount of beliefs that cause excess deaths in the world caused by people having "incorrect" beliefs, you cannot judge the fanaticism of a belief by the fact that large numbers of people sharing it can cause inadequate maximization of human welfare.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125897
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:37 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Ifreann wrote:What kind of awful parents would name their baby Corbyn?
Dangerously socialist ones thats for sure.

Dangerously something, certainly.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

User avatar
Hydesland
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14967
Founded: Nov 28, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:40 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:But the Troubles, y'know, happened. We can't just subtract them from reality and debate how good the DUP are without considering what literally created them.


We can have a coherent debate about how fanatical their current views are, regardless of their past during the troubles.

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39893
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:42 am

So when are we expecting the IRA to go loud again?
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aglanen, Arlenton, Ayytaly, Bienenhalde, Byzconia, Charliber, Conserative Morality, Dazchan, Democratic Communist Federation, Duvniask, Europe - Prussia, Far Easter Republic, Fartsniffage, Gran Toreno, Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores, Grinning Dragon, Immoren, Kannap, Loben, Longweather, Nantoraka, Samudera Darussalam, San Lumen, Scomagia, Sirocca, Stanislavovna, The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord, Vassenor, Wunderstrafanstalt

Advertisement

Remove ads