UK Politics Thread VII: Wake me DUP inside [can't wake UUP]

[The Huskar Social Union]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mla-wells-compares-abortion-to-holocaust-more-people-killed-through-terminations-since-1967-36982395.html

Jim wells continues to be a wanker.

[Shamhnan Insir]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mla-wells-compares-abortion-to-holocaust-more-people-killed-through-terminations-since-1967-36982395.html

Jim wells continues to be a wanker.

Sigh.

Then again, if NI could get a proper working government together, abortion would hardly be at the top of a "to do list" currently.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Well, mainly I want you to admit that when you said you were working from outdated information, what you meant was "I did not know what I was talking about."

I'm not your dancing monkey.

Besides from the sounds of things you've already come to that decision whether I say it or not.

Well, then kindly provide the outdated information you were working from.

I certainly have come to that conclusion. I've come to it because I cannot find anything saying that EU students have to pay Scottish tuition. I'm not sure when EU students last had to pay Scottish tuition, if they ever did. It's hard to find out, because googling turns up accurate information about how EU students currently don't have to pay. So I can't imagine that you could possibly have access to some weird, outdated information but nothing up to date. Which leads me to conclude that you basically just said what you vaguely thought was right. And that's fine. It's fine to be make mistakes. But it's weird that you feel the need to cover it.

I'm almost certainly being petty here, but you do this a lot. The other day, when forced to confront the sexism of a dress code, you labelled it "badly written", because the alternative was admitting that you were wrong. You're wrong about an awful lot of things, Vass. It's okay to admit it. You won't grow as a person if you can't accept your own fallibility.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mla-wells-compares-abortion-to-holocaust-more-people-killed-through-terminations-since-1967-36982395.html

Jim wells continues to be a wanker.

He probably shouldn't be a wanker. That's a sin.

[Vassenor]

I'm not your dancing monkey.

Besides from the sounds of things you've already come to that decision whether I say it or not.

Well, then kindly provide the outdated information you were working from.

I certainly have come to that conclusion. I've come to it because I cannot find anything saying that EU students have to pay Scottish tuition. I'm not sure when EU students last had to pay Scottish tuition, if they ever did. It's hard to find out, because googling turns up accurate information about how EU students currently don't have to pay. So I can't imagine that you could possibly have access to some weird, outdated information but nothing up to date. Which leads me to conclude that you basically just said what you vaguely thought was right. And that's fine. It's fine to be make mistakes. But it's weird that you feel the need to cover it.

I'm almost certainly being petty here, but you do this a lot. The other day, when forced to confront the sexism of a dress code, you labelled it "badly written", because the alternative was admitting that you were wrong. You're wrong about an awful lot of things, Vass. It's okay to admit it. You won't grow as a person if you can't accept your own fallibility.

So show me when I said the dress code was not sexist. Like I asked you to at the time and you failed to.

That's not badly written. Badly written implies that some flaw in the wording results in the code having a meaning different from the author's intent or creates some loophole the author would not have approved of. In this case, it is clearly the school's intent that shorts be forbidden. It's like saying the Buggery Act was badly written because it made gay sex illegal.

So why is it okay to force (in practice) boys to only wear trousers, but not okay to force girls to only wear skirts?

Where did I say it was OK to force boys to only wear trousers?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Well, then kindly provide the outdated information you were working from.

I certainly have come to that conclusion. I've come to it because I cannot find anything saying that EU students have to pay Scottish tuition. I'm not sure when EU students last had to pay Scottish tuition, if they ever did. It's hard to find out, because googling turns up accurate information about how EU students currently don't have to pay. So I can't imagine that you could possibly have access to some weird, outdated information but nothing up to date. Which leads me to conclude that you basically just said what you vaguely thought was right. And that's fine. It's fine to be make mistakes. But it's weird that you feel the need to cover it.

I'm almost certainly being petty here, but you do this a lot. The other day, when forced to confront the sexism of a dress code, you labelled it "badly written", because the alternative was admitting that you were wrong. You're wrong about an awful lot of things, Vass. It's okay to admit it. You won't grow as a person if you can't accept your own fallibility.

So show me when I said the dress code was not sexist. Like I asked you to at the time and you failed to.

Well, I suppose you didn't explicitly. You did snidely dismiss Ostro, as you snidely dismiss everyone who disagrees with you.

Anything that doesn't treat men as special is gynocentric misandry.

Which rather implies that you thought he was demanding special treatment and the existing state of affairs was fine. But we're getting away from the point. I note that I wrote quite a long post there, and you picked out one tiny part of it that's divorced from the whole "you being wrong about Scotland" theme.

Like I said, I know I'm being petty, but come on. It's not hard. Three little words: I was wrong. There, I've even typed them for you. You just need to copy and paste them.

[Vassenor]

So show me when I said the dress code was not sexist. Like I asked you to at the time and you failed to.

Well, I suppose you didn't explicitly. You did snidely dismiss Ostro, as you snidely dismiss everyone who disagrees with you.

Anything that doesn't treat men as special is gynocentric misandry.

Which rather implies that you thought he was demanding special treatment and the existing state of affairs was fine. But we're getting away from the point. I note that I wrote quite a long post there, and you picked out one tiny part of it that's divorced from the whole "you being wrong about Scotland" theme.

Like I said, I know I'm being petty, but come on. It's not hard. Three little words: I was wrong. There, I've even typed them for you. You just need to copy and paste them.

And I'm pretty sure that was the straight implication of "Oh, well I guess my information was outdated then" that would be obvious to anyone who wasn't trying to draw out a point for the sake of spite..

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Well, I suppose you didn't explicitly. You did snidely dismiss Ostro, as you snidely dismiss everyone who disagrees with you.

Which rather implies that you thought he was demanding special treatment and the existing state of affairs was fine. But we're getting away from the point. I note that I wrote quite a long post there, and you picked out one tiny part of it that's divorced from the whole "you being wrong about Scotland" theme.

Like I said, I know I'm being petty, but come on. It's not hard. Three little words: I was wrong. There, I've even typed them for you. You just need to copy and paste them.

And I'm pretty sure that was the straight implication of "Oh, well I guess my information was outdated then" that would be obvious to anyone who wasn't trying to draw out a point for the sake of spite..

What information? When is it from? Is it an article from the early 2000s? An admissions pamphlet from the 90s? As you're so fond of doing, I'm going to have to ask you for a source.

I don't think it was the implication. I think the implication was that someone else was wrong, and you'd just innocently relayed their mistake. But if that was what you were implying, go ahead and "exply" it now. I was wrong. Go on.

[Imperializt Russia]

A school brought in a "Gender neutral" uniform policy, which in actuality is just gynocentric misandry.

They've said trousers or skirts only, banning shorts and telling boys to wear skirts if it gets too hot. This is a disparate impact kind of thing.

This is indeed dumb, and while I don't agree with your terminology, I do accept your assessment.

[Salandriagado]

Why exactly are you pushing me on this anyway?

Well, mainly I want you to admit that when you said you were working from outdated information, what you meant was "I did not know what I was talking about."

Except that isn't the case. There was a period when Vassenor's claim was true: that changed because they got taken to court over it.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Well, mainly I want you to admit that when you said you were working from outdated information, what you meant was "I did not know what I was talking about."

Except that isn't the case. There was a period when Vassenor's claim was true: that changed because they got taken to court over it.

I never said there wasn't such a period. But Vass never brought it up when asked. Instead, she got defensive and danced around the point. It seems this case was seven years ago? I would say that if you comment on a situation you haven't checked in on in over half a decade, that counts as not knowing what you're talking about.

[Shamhnan Insir]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

[Oil exporting People]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

> exploitation is good

[Ostroeuropa]

A school brought in a "Gender neutral" uniform policy, which in actuality is just gynocentric misandry.

They've said trousers or skirts only, banning shorts and telling boys to wear skirts if it gets too hot. This is a disparate impact kind of thing.

This is indeed dumb, and while I don't agree with your terminology, I do accept your assessment.

Why don't you try describing it then, i'm assuming misandry is the word you're objecting to.

Suppose a school demanded buzz cuts regardless of gender, knowing full well this would mean more discomfort and so on for girls than boys, and threatened to send them home if they didn't.

It sounds like the kind of wrecking maneuver Republicans pull over abortion, but aimed at fucking over girls education.

Here it's similar, and despite boys being disadvantaged and discriminated against in schools (Or perhaps because of that and this is merely an escalation), we're seeing a maneuver to fuck them over.

We know for a fact that misandry against boys in schools is widespread and systemic and they're punished more often and harsher for the same behaviors, and graded less for the same work by mostly women teachers, and this headteacher is a woman.

Why should this be viewed outside that context, rather than this merely being a more straightforward expression of a prejudice and contempt for males we know to be widespread in the education system?

Like a chief of police one day up and deciding to go on a rant about n*g**rs.

What's revealing about it is that this is a case where contempt for males is advanced using egalitarian rhetoric, which seems to be simply how it's done these days, to present treating men as second class citizens or like dirt as the same thing as fairness, something only enabled by feminist gaslighting of the populace into ignoring male disadvantage and presenting women as an oppressed class by ignoring and suppressing discussion of mens issues.

Clearly, the results of the feminist framework being normalized in institutions are not positive.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

[Dooom35796821595]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

This is a great chance for automation to replace cheap human labour.

[Fartsniffage]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

This is a great chance for automation to replace cheap human labour.

See if you can invent a machine to pick raspberries or strawberries. You'd make a fortune if you can.

[Neu Leonstein]

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

Many of them have though. Or rather, not Brentered. *sigh*

Basically, migrants from eastern Europe looking for physical labour jobs in the UK don't think of those jobs as exploitation, but as an opportunity to earn more for that work than they would at home. They live here fairly cheaply, and anything left over gets sent back home. When they make the decision whether to leave their home country, and which country to move to, they obviously convert earnings back into the home currency.

Since sterling has crapped itself following the vote (less so now than immediately, but it's still a pretty substantial depreciation, especially against EUR), any given fruit picking salary in the UK is now substantially lower than a fruit picking salary in France or Germany or whatever.

There are lots of charts here where you can see it: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2017-11-30

[Shamhnan Insir]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

Directly? No.
However there is real concern over the paperwork requirements due to false reporting of immediate changes following the report as well as news headlines generating a negative light about work in the UK at the current time. Either way, farmers are facing serious staff shortages which will lead to a lot of wasted produce unless the vacancies can be filled in.

This is a great chance for automation to replace cheap human labour.

Would have been done already if picking were as simple. Automation tends not to be gentle in its approach and we all know how presentation is everything when it comes to fresh produce.

[Oil exporting People]

This is a great chance for automation to replace cheap human labour.

See if you can invent a machine to pick raspberries or strawberries. You'd make a fortune if you can.

Labor Shortages Prompt Strawberry Picking Automation

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

So who amongst you is going to go and help pick the fruit and vegetables this summer, since the complete fucking farce of the Brexit situation has hamstrung the supply of people willing to do the work?

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

European fruit pickers shun Britain

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

European fruit pickers shun Britain

Oh. That's unfortunate.

[Oil exporting People]

Surely they're not affected yet? We haven't actually Brexited.

European fruit pickers shun Britain

Gotta love the BBC using click bait instead of delving into the actual reasons:

Kent-based AG Recruitment and Management works in Romania to supply labour for 80 growers across the UK.

Over the next few months it needs to find 4,000 people to pick strawberries, raspberries, and eventually apples and pears. The agency is nowhere near that target, and is having to call farmers to say it will not have enough pickers for them.

According to co-director, Estera Amesz, the numbers of people wanting to work in Britain fell sharply after Brexit. A key issue was the fall in the value of the pound. She says it is also down to the uncertainty; people aren't sure what documents they now need.

For one, they're just citing a single company instead of any hard facts or data; that alone raises a major Red Flag as the problem could just be this company. Beyond that, this portion alone immediately invalidates the headline, as the workers are not shunning the UK over Brexit in of itself, as is implied, but actually just because they're unsure of the logistics of making it to the UK now.

Continuing on, we see even more trouble with the headline:

Romania is one of the poorest countries in Europe. It is one of the largest recipients of EU money.

However, almost 30 years after the Romanian Revolution of 1989 and the fall of the communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu, its economy is growing at 6.9%. That's a much faster rate compared to Britain's.

It's creating a newly wealthy middle class.

Further on:

Growers in Romania are also finding it tough to find pickers.

The director of the Research and Development Centre for Fruit Growing in Iasi, Gelu Corneanu, said: "It's really difficult to find workers to harvest our crops, mainly because they are attracted to other European countries.

"People tend to go and harvest garlic in Spain, then they harvest cherries in Romania and then they harvest strawberries in Greece."

So the actual problem doesn't seem to be Brexit at all, but instead that Eastern Europe is getting wealthy enough to not need to do this and when they do it, they're actually able to be more picky with regards to which jobs they take in order to get the best return.

[Shamhnan Insir]

European fruit pickers shun Britain

Gotta love the BBC using click bait instead of delving into the actual reasons:

Kent-based AG Recruitment and Management works in Romania to supply labour for 80 growers across the UK.

Over the next few months it needs to find 4,000 people to pick strawberries, raspberries, and eventually apples and pears. The agency is nowhere near that target, and is having to call farmers to say it will not have enough pickers for them.

According to co-director, Estera Amesz, the numbers of people wanting to work in Britain fell sharply after Brexit. A key issue was the fall in the value of the pound. She says it is also down to the uncertainty; people aren't sure what documents they now need.

For one, they're just citing a single company instead of any hard facts or data; that alone raises a major Red Flag as the problem could just be this company. Beyond that, this portion alone immediately invalidates the headline, as the workers are not shunning the UK over Brexit in of itself, as is implied, but actually just because they're unsure of the logistics of making it to the UK now.

Continuing on, we see even more trouble with the headline:

Romania is one of the poorest countries in Europe. It is one of the largest recipients of EU money.

However, almost 30 years after the Romanian Revolution of 1989 and the fall of the communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu, its economy is growing at 6.9%. That's a much faster rate compared to Britain's.

It's creating a newly wealthy middle class.

Further on:

Growers in Romania are also finding it tough to find pickers.

The director of the Research and Development Centre for Fruit Growing in Iasi, Gelu Corneanu, said: "It's really difficult to find workers to harvest our crops, mainly because they are attracted to other European countries.

"People tend to go and harvest garlic in Spain, then they harvest cherries in Romania and then they harvest strawberries in Greece."

So the actual problem doesn't seem to be Brexit at all, but instead that Eastern Europe is getting wealthy enough to not need to do this and when they do it, they're actually able to be more picky with regards to which jobs they take in order to get the best return.

The weaker pound doesn't exactly help, nor (as I have said) the headlines portraying a negative light on this. I come back to my question however, who of you would go and pick fruit in the summer? I understand you have already suggested automation, however it is not economical viable for small farms to invest in such tools when a human laborer can preform a greater variety of tasks to a more refined degree.

From what I observed, I saw the referendum as a signal of a stirring of nationalism in the UK, however beyond the vote and the subsequent pointless shit-slinging with equally vocal opponents, I do not see a "dig for Britain"mentality emerge.

[Neu Leonstein]

So the actual problem doesn't seem to be Brexit at all, but instead that Eastern Europe is getting wealthy enough to not need to do this and when they do it, they're actually able to be more picky with regards to which jobs they take in order to get the best return.

That explanation does nothing to address the actual patterns.