Middle East Conflict Megathread (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc)

[Fahran]

"Liberated"

By who?

Assad. Because MERIZoC unironically likes rather bad dictators as long as they're Anti-American and profess to having some sort of left-wing political affiliation, however incredible such professions may be.

[Shofercia]

Name a single Crimean Tatar who was persecuted, who's not a member of the Mejlis, and had no ties to the Mejlis, or other extremist groups. Just one. Not to mention that I already showed that the majority of Crimean Tatars favored Crimea's Reclamation by Russia, using simple math.

Wow, very insightful, especially considering the Party of Regions appointed a Holocaust denier to replace the Majlis’ head a state agency. The Majlis is an extremist organization and it’s okay to disappear their members because they advocate for autonomy in opposition to a constitution nobody actually cares about, but the Crimean Russians who are 100% against Nazism are literally antifa angels for doing the same thing. This is why Russland, within its current borders, needs to be abolished.

Russia is oppressing Crimean Tatars for their ethnicity so much that you couldn't even name a single example, and are now heroically deflecting onto something irrelevant, like the Party of Regions, which hasn't been in power in Crimea since the Russians reclaimed Crimea. Meanwhile, I provided evidence showing that the majority of Crimean Tatars actually voted to be Reclaimed by Russia, citing several credible polling agencies.

Here's the thing: the Mejlis, is actually not well liked by most young Crimean Tatars, because the young Crimean Tatars want to work, party, and have sex, not necessarily in that order. They don't give a fuck about old grudges, and they don't want to have their living standards, which increased substantially since 2014, wasted on some hopeless crusade. The Human Rights Watch Report was so desperate to find something bad in Crimea, that they cited an organization, that's also banned in Germany, as struggling unfairly under Russian rule. Where's the outrage about it struggling unfairly under German rule?

But let's talk about Mustafa Dzhmeliev, Werpland's hero: https://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927 ... -blockade/

Entering its second week on Sunday, the Ukrainian food blockade of Crimea has 'borne fruit', forcing Ukrainian farmers dependent on the Crimean market to sell their goods for a pittance, destroying what remains. News portal Kherson.net.ua has reported that the blockade, initiated by the Right Sector and by Poroshenko Bloc Rada MPs and self-proclaimed leaders of the Crimean Tatar community Refat Chubarov and Mustafa Dzhemilov, has forced farmers in the region of Kherson to sell off their produce at prices up to ten times below what they would normally get.

The news portal explained that with produce meant for Crimea being dumped on the local market en masse by truckers turned back at the border, there is literally no point in bringing their goods to market. The oversupply and the loss of the Crimean market, combined with exorbitant gas prices, has led to a situation where the farmers "are literally feeding products to their livestock." Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market."

Essentially Dzhemeliev launched a blockade, sometimes violently enforced, of Crimea, with the hopes of starving the peninsula from food, energy, water, etc, echoing Nazi attempt to starve Leningrad. The blockade, much like other things Dzhemeliev does, failed epically. The Russians were able to get food, power, and water to Crimea, across the Kerch Strait, ensuring that what little resistance remained, soon turned pro-Russian, while Dzhemeliev and company learned a harsh lesson: if you starve the people, they will not vote for you. Furthermore, his faction pissed off the Kherson farmers, who now lost a lucrative market. And that's what happens to those who side against Russia in Crimea. Those who don't know History, are doomed to repeat it.

[Improved werpland]

Sputnik News is not a source and the arguments you made off those statistics are mostly speculation with too little ground to firmly stand on. I don’t think Germany is disappearing Neonazis let alone Danish or Sorb activists either.

I enjoyed reading the section of your post where you adopted a globalist/liberal meliorist view of the Crimean Tatars. That only the old Tatars care about their community and the young ones like to have sex and make money with Russian occupants. Sounds like Fukuyama but with people selling out to Russland instead of seeking that recognition. Your chimera-style marriage of centrism to Russian imperialism continues to make for interesting posts!

[Shofercia]

Sputnik News is not a source and the arguments you made off those statistics are mostly speculation with too little ground to firmly stand on. I don’t think Germany is disappearing Neonazis let alone Danish or Sorb activists either.

I enjoyed reading the section of your post where you adopted a globalist/liberal meliorist view of the Crimean Tatars. That only the old Tatars care about their community and the young ones like to have sex and make money with Russian occupants. Sounds like Fukuyama but with people selling out to Russland instead of seeking that recognition. Your chimera-style marriage of centrism to Russian imperialism continues to make for interesting posts!

After failing to prove that Russia is going after people for their ethnicity, you continue to make bullshit claims that Russia's going after people for their ethnicity... Numerous other sources talk about the attempted and failed Crimean Blockade, they're not that hard to find.

Plenty of Tatars care about their community, they just don't let old grudges define their community. That's the difference between Dzhemeliev and the Realists; one will let old grudges be his undoing, the others just want to live and thrive.

There's nothing wrong with Realism or Centrism, and as far as Russian Imperialism is concerned - you're the one claiming that Russians who have been living in Crimea are occupants... what the actual fuck? This is so much dumber than your attempt to use weather maps as a source...

It's all about the Russian Occupiers for Werpland. He sees Russian Occupiers everywhere, even in areas where Russians lived since the 10th Century. Perhaps next he'll bullshit about the Russian "occupiers" of Sevastopol, where the Russians built the city, and then dared to continue and occupy the city that the Russians built, hence for Werpland, Russians are occupiers. Next up, Werpland will tell us all that the Russians are occupiers of Novgorod. Joe McCarthy must be going "damn, claiming that the Russians invaded Novgorod, missed opportunity there!"

[Senkaku]

It's all about the Russian Occupiers for Werpland. He sees Russian Occupiers everywhere, even in areas where Russians lived since the 10th Century. Perhaps next he'll bullshit about the Russian "occupiers" of Sevastopol, where the Russians built the city, and then dared to continue and occupy the city that the Russians built, hence for Werpland, Russians are occupiers. Next up, Werpland will tell us all that the Russians are occupiers of Novgorod. Joe McCarthy must be going "damn, claiming that the Russians invaded Novgorod, missed opportunity there!"

This is off-topic (though then again, so is this whole discussion of Crimea in a thread on the Middle East), but what is the deal with your odd style of referring to the person you're responding to as if you're turning around to a crowd of people and giving an aside about them? It doesn't seem like a terribly compelling way to sway hearts and minds and get people to buy into the propaganda when you could be investing that time in fleshing out your "proof" and "arguments" further to muddy the waters more. Don't you have some sort of quality control metric to meet, or is it just a per-post rate?

[Salus Maior]

By who?

Assad. Because MERIZoC unironically likes rather bad dictators as long as they're Anti-American and profess to having some sort of left-wing political affiliation, however incredible such professions may be.

Assad's far better than the rebels, so I'm fine with that.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Assad. Because MERIZoC unironically likes rather bad dictators as long as they're Anti-American and profess to having some sort of left-wing political affiliation, however incredible such professions may be.

Assad's far better than the rebels, so I'm fine with that.

Given that Assad uses chemical weapons on civilians, the rebels would have to be Satan in human form.

[Fahran]

Assad's far better than the rebels, so I'm fine with that.

That really depends on what you mean by better. If we're employing the metric popular in liberal democracies, the YPG/YPJ are miles ahead of Assad. If we're discussing representation of the Syrian population's political opinions, the FSA is probably slightly better than Assad. The guy mismanaged his country so badly that he evoked a popular uprising that led to a six year civil war. If we're talking about the best option we're going to get, you might have a point.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Assad's far better than the rebels, so I'm fine with that.

Given that Assad uses chemical weapons on civilians, the rebels would have to be Satan in human form.

I can't imagine thinking that isolated uses of chemical weapons resulting in small numbers of civilian casualties is worse than instituting theocracy on a large scale throughout the country.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Given that Assad uses chemical weapons on civilians, the rebels would have to be Satan in human form.

I can't imagine thinking that isolated uses of chemical weapons resulting in small numbers of civilian casualties is worse than instituting theocracy on a large scale throughout the country.

By Western democratic standards, the Free Syrian Army is miles ahead of Assad's regime. Yes, the Free Syrian Army has carried out many human rights abuses such as use of child soldiers, but please give sources that FSA is implementing theocracy.

Also, use of chemical weapons is illegal under international law.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I can't imagine thinking that isolated uses of chemical weapons resulting in small numbers of civilian casualties is worse than instituting theocracy on a large scale throughout the country.

By Western democratic standards, the Free Syrian Army is miles ahead of Assad's regime. Yes, the Free Syrian Army has carried out many human rights abuses such as use of child soldiers, but please give sources that FSA is implementing theocracy.

Also, use of chemical weapons is illegal under international law.

The FSA is affiliated with Tahir Sayt Al-Sham, which is an Islamist group currently controlling Idlib, which is now and Islamic state. Other than that, the FSA no longer exists.

As for chemical weapons, I won't deny that I'm a partisan to the Ba'ath Party and that I'll support it as long as it stays true to the principles of Arab Socialism.

[Pilarcraft]

Given that Assad uses chemical weapons on civilians, the rebels would have to be Satan in human form.

I can't imagine thinking that isolated uses of chemical weapons resulting in small numbers of civilian casualties is worse than instituting theocracy on a large scale throughout the country.

except that apart from a few fringes like ISIS, none of the Opposition to Assad are theocratic though.

[Fahran]

As for chemical weapons, I won't deny that I'm a partisan to the Ba'ath Party and that I'll support it as long as it stays true to the principles of Arab Socialism.

I'm inclined to point out that Assad has not neatly adhered to the political model established by Michel Aflaq. And most of the people who have expressed support for Assad in this thread are doing so principally because they believe he has rejected fundamental tenants of Baathism as it was originally conceived or because they believe he is left-wing in his political orientation.

[United Muscovite Nations]

As for chemical weapons, I won't deny that I'm a partisan to the Ba'ath Party and that I'll support it as long as it stays true to the principles of Arab Socialism.

I'm inclined to point out that Assad has not neatly adhered to the political model established by Michel Aflaq. And most of the people who have expressed support for Assad in this thread are doing so principally because they believe he has rejected fundamental tenants of Baathism as it was originally conceived or because they believe he is left-wing in his political orientation.

Fair point, and, if Saddam were still around, I would support him much more than I'd support Assad. I think Assad has cozied up too much with religious leaders myself, and he has implemented too many liberal reforms to the economy. That said, he's still the only side that still supports secularism in Syria on the ba'athist model.

[Pilarcraft]

I'm inclined to point out that Assad has not neatly adhered to the political model established by Michel Aflaq. And most of the people who have expressed support for Assad in this thread are doing so principally because they believe he has rejected fundamental tenants of Baathism as it was originally conceived or because they believe he is left-wing in his political orientation.

Fair point, and, if Saddam were still around, I would support him much more than I'd support Assad. I think Assad has cozied up too much with religious leaders myself, and he has implemented too many liberal reforms to the economy. That said, he's still the only side that still supports secularism in Syria on the ba'athist model.

That statement made me lose whatever little respect I actually had for you tbh.

[Uxupox]

By Western democratic standards, the Free Syrian Army is miles ahead of Assad's regime. Yes, the Free Syrian Army has carried out many human rights abuses such as use of child soldiers, but please give sources that FSA is implementing theocracy.

Also, use of chemical weapons is illegal under international law.

The FSA is affiliated with Tahir Sayt Al-Sham, which is an Islamist group currently controlling Idlib, which is now and Islamic state. Other than that, the FSA no longer exists.

As for chemical weapons, I won't deny that I'm a partisan to the Ba'ath Party and that I'll support it as long as it stays true to the principles of Arab Socialism.

you might see a return then with the new prime minister of Iraq. though Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia hate Muqtada al-Sadr. will be interesting to see the new regional conflict in the area.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The FSA is affiliated with Tahir Sayt Al-Sham, which is an Islamist group currently controlling Idlib, which is now and Islamic state. Other than that, the FSA no longer exists.

As for chemical weapons, I won't deny that I'm a partisan to the Ba'ath Party and that I'll support it as long as it stays true to the principles of Arab Socialism.

you might see a return then with the new prime minister of Iraq. though Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia hate Muqtada al-Sadr. will be interesting to see the new regional conflict in the area.

Muqtada Al-Sadr was exiled in Saddam's time because he is a radical cleric. The remaining Ba'ath holdouts would be the Army of the Men of the Nashqband Order, led by former general and vice president Ibrihim Izzat Al-Douri, who is the highest-ranking member of Saddam's government to escape capture.

[Fahran]

Fair point, and, if Saddam were still around, I would support him much more than I'd support Assad. I think Assad has cozied up too much with religious leaders myself, and he has implemented too many liberal reforms to the economy. That said, he's still the only side that still supports secularism in Syria on the ba'athist model.

Michel Aflaq was not altogether interested in secularism for its own sake. Despite his Christian background, he actually maintained a deep respect for Islam and called on all Arabs, regardless of religious belief, to symbolically worship Islam and to pursue Islamic ideals. He characterized the Prophet Muhammad as the paragon of and role model for Arab identity. I'd almost put him closer to some of the Fascists than I would to mainstream Marxists. His movement for national renaissance was very much a spiritual one and he described it as such.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Fair point, and, if Saddam were still around, I would support him much more than I'd support Assad. I think Assad has cozied up too much with religious leaders myself, and he has implemented too many liberal reforms to the economy. That said, he's still the only side that still supports secularism in Syria on the ba'athist model.

Michel Aflaq was not altogether interested in secularism for its own sake. Despite his Christian background, he actually maintained a deep respect for Islam and called on all Arabs, regardless of religious belief, to symbolically worship Islam and to pursue Islamic ideals. He characterized the Prophet Muhammad as the paragon of and role model for Arab identity. I'd almost put him closer to some of the Fascists than I would to mainstream Marxists. His movement for national renaissance was very much a spiritual one and he described it as such.

I'm aware, but his ideas for Islam were more based on cultural affinity than religious belief, and that is what the Ba'athists pursued in power. They promoted Islamic morality and culture, but only as part of Arab culture, and strictly opposed the use of political Islam, because it undermined the unity of the Arab people.

[Fahran]

I'm aware, but his ideas for Islam were more based on cultural affinity than religious belief, and that is what the Ba'athists pursued in power. They promoted Islamic morality and culture, but only as part of Arab culture, and strictly opposed the use of political Islam, because it undermined the unity of the Arab people.

I wanted to make certain. Some people here appear to be under the false impression that Baathism aligns neatly with Marxism-Leninism or some other pet ideology when in reality it's more nationalistic and spiritual. Sharia is still implemented as one of the foundations of Syria's judicial system, making it similar to Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine in that regard. The YPG/YPJ are the only force I know about than supports complete secularism.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm aware, but his ideas for Islam were more based on cultural affinity than religious belief, and that is what the Ba'athists pursued in power. They promoted Islamic morality and culture, but only as part of Arab culture, and strictly opposed the use of political Islam, because it undermined the unity of the Arab people.

I wanted to make certain. Some people here appear to be under the false impression that Baathism aligns neatly with Marxism-Leninism or some other pet ideology when in reality it's more nationalistic and spiritual. Sharia is still implemented as one of the foundations of Syria's judicial system, making it similar to Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine in that regard. The YPG/YPJ are the only force I know about than supports complete secularism.

It is, however, true that harsh punishments for violating religious laws (such as death for apostasy) are not in use in Syria, it's only in use in civil proceeding such as divorce and marriage. But, yes, I agree generally that Ba'athism doesn't line up neatly with Leftism.

[Fahran]

It is, however, true that harsh punishments for violating religious laws (such as death for apostasy) are not in use in Syria, it's only in use in civil proceeding such as divorce and marriage.

As far as I understand it, the laws are applied in a manner not dissimilar to that of Jordan or the UAE. Homosexuality is, for instance, illegal. Public apostasy is likewise illegal, even if it affects the converts closest family members marginally. Generally, you can get away with these things as long as you're extremely discreet. If you start telling people "I'm gay" or "I'm an apostate", you'll wind up in prison.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It is, however, true that harsh punishments for violating religious laws (such as death for apostasy) are not in use in Syria, it's only in use in civil proceeding such as divorce and marriage.

As far as I understand it, the laws are applied in a manner not dissimilar to that of Jordan or the UAE. Homosexuality is, for instance, illegal. Public apostasy is likewise illegal, even if it affects the converts closest family members marginally. Generally, you can get away with these things as long as you're extremely discreet. If you start telling people "I'm gay" or "I'm an apostate", you'll wind up in prison.

While technically there is a law against public apostasy, no one has ever been charged under the statute, so it is de-facto legal.

[Fahran]

While technically there is a law against public apostasy, no one has ever been charged under the statute, so it is de-facto legal.

That's subject to change at the regime's convenience and you know as well as I do that the Baathist government would have no qualms about incarcerating public apostates if it provided some sort of political advantage. It does not contradict their philosophy in the slightest, even if they oppose Islamism.

[United Muscovite Nations]

While technically there is a law against public apostasy, no one has ever been charged under the statute, so it is de-facto legal.

That's subject to change at the regime's convenience and you know as well as I do that the Baathist government would have no qualms about incarcerating public apostates if it provided some sort of political advantage. It does not contradict their philosophy in the slightest, even if they oppose Islamism.

Perhaps so, but it is very much in the Ba'athist government's interest to continue to seek the support of religious minorities like the Alawi, Eastern Christians, and Druze, moreso than it is to seek the support of the Muslims.