I won't. But I will tell you that 56% of the US' 5.2 million Native Americans are full-blooded, according to the US Census Bureau.
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by United Islamic Commonwealth » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:14 am
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:22 am
by United Islamic Commonwealth » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:23 am
by Constantinopolis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:27 am
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:32 am
Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
by Constantinopolis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:32 am
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
Does it not require living space?
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:44 am
by United Islamic Commonwealth » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:46 am
by Uxupox » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:52 am
Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
by Yurizlansia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:00 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
by Constantinopolis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:14 pm
Uxupox wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
Pretty sure that the Ashkenazi Jews don't have concentration camps solely developed to destroy another ethnic race within Israel.
by Constantinopolis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 pm
Yurizlansia wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
I will not deny that Israel's police and defense forces show a degree of brutality against Palestinian civilians that is not excusable. What I don't understand, however, as I said earlier, is the justification of the idea that "Israel does not have the right to exist". I don't understand what gives Palestine more "existence authority" than Israel has.
Yurizlansia wrote:And I will assume that based on the "living space" comment you are referencing Nazi Germany. As I said earlier there are certainly issues with how the IDF deals with the Palestinian population in the West Bank, and they could certainly deal with Hamas in the Gaza strip better, but to compare Israel to Nazi Germany is a stretch. This false equivalency is a favorite among the critics of Israel, and people who use it usually only do so to stir emotions in people. Israeli Arabs have full protection under the law of Israel. Does it always work out that way in practice? No, but the same can be said for every other country, and probably every other former country on Earth. I have to ask, did Jews/Roma or anyother people considered by Nazi Germany to be sub-human have representation in the Reichstag? No, of course they didn't (not after 1933 anyways). On the other hand, Israeli Arabs have representation in the Knesset (about 13 of the 120 seats, or a bit more than 10%). And these are just seats belonging to the Joint List who represents Israeli Arab interests. To compare Israel to Nazi Germany is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:33 pm
Constantinopolis wrote: Pretantia's ideas
by Yurizlansia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Yurizlansia wrote:I will not deny that Israel's police and defense forces show a degree of brutality against Palestinian civilians that is not excusable. What I don't understand, however, as I said earlier, is the justification of the idea that "Israel does not have the right to exist". I don't understand what gives Palestine more "existence authority" than Israel has.
As I said before, what I support is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state with equal rights for both Jews and Palestinians and equal respect for both Jewish and Arab cultures and languages and so on.
Advocates of Israel are the ones who typically refer to this idea as tantamount to saying that "Israel does not have the right to exist". In doing so, they implicitly admit that their idea of "Israel" is an ethnic supremacist state, and that abolishing ethnic supremacy would be - to them - equivalent to abolishing Israel.Yurizlansia wrote:And I will assume that based on the "living space" comment you are referencing Nazi Germany. As I said earlier there are certainly issues with how the IDF deals with the Palestinian population in the West Bank, and they could certainly deal with Hamas in the Gaza strip better, but to compare Israel to Nazi Germany is a stretch. This false equivalency is a favorite among the critics of Israel, and people who use it usually only do so to stir emotions in people. Israeli Arabs have full protection under the law of Israel. Does it always work out that way in practice? No, but the same can be said for every other country, and probably every other former country on Earth. I have to ask, did Jews/Roma or anyother people considered by Nazi Germany to be sub-human have representation in the Reichstag? No, of course they didn't (not after 1933 anyways). On the other hand, Israeli Arabs have representation in the Knesset (about 13 of the 120 seats, or a bit more than 10%). And these are just seats belonging to the Joint List who represents Israeli Arab interests. To compare Israel to Nazi Germany is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
Oh, I didn't mean to compare present-day Israel with Nazi Germany. As I said, I think Israel is best compared with the average 19th century European nation-state that persecuted its ethnic minorities.
I meant to compare Pretantia's ideas with Nazism - and to point out where the logic of ethnic nationalism eventually leads if you keep going down that route.
Israel is absolutely not comparable with Nazi Germany in any way at the present time. But if the current status quo continues for another 50 years, I think there is a real possibility that Israel could go in that direction. After all, extreme Zionists want to purge the Arabs from Judea and Samaria, and it is very clear that no amount of persecution is going to make them emigrate in large enough numbers to achieve that. It is only a matter of time until someone asks, "why don't we just kill them all?"
When you are dedicated to the project of purging your country of undesirable ethnic groups, and when it becomes clear that you can't pressure them to emigrate fast enough, someone always puts the genocide option on the table eventually.
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:52 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Baltenstein wrote:
Good example actually, as the notion of the Native Americans taking D.C. or New York on horseback is equally realistic to the Palestinians destroying Israel.
I agree. That's why I'm framing the issue in terms of Israel giving citizenship and equal rights to Palestinians. Because realistically, that is the only way the Palestinians are ever going to get their rights back. The State of Israel cannot be defeated, and trying to fight it through guerilla warfare is particularly stupid. The Palestinians need to let go of the "anti-colonial struggle" framework, and switch to a "civil rights struggle" framework. They need to follow the South Africa strategy, not the Zimbabwe strategy.
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:53 pm
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:56 pm
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:Irony:
Pretantia defending the Jewish State by resorting to arguments based on purity of the racial bloodline to determine whether an ethnic group has a right to a piece of land.
Why not just say that Israel requires "living space" and be done with it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is the greatest political irony since Liberia. A state founded by refugees who have embraced the ideology of their oppressors. "Blood and Soil", indeed.
Does it not require living space?
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:56 pm
by Uxupox » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:56 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Yurizlansia wrote:I will not deny that Israel's police and defense forces show a degree of brutality against Palestinian civilians that is not excusable. What I don't understand, however, as I said earlier, is the justification of the idea that "Israel does not have the right to exist". I don't understand what gives Palestine more "existence authority" than Israel has.
As I said before, what I support is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state with equal rights for both Jews and Palestinians and equal respect for both Jewish and Arab cultures and languages and so on.
Advocates of Israel are the ones who typically refer to this idea as tantamount to saying that "Israel does not have the right to exist". In doing so, they implicitly admit that their idea of "Israel" is an ethnic supremacist state, and that abolishing ethnic supremacy would be - to them - equivalent to abolishing Israel.Yurizlansia wrote:And I will assume that based on the "living space" comment you are referencing Nazi Germany. As I said earlier there are certainly issues with how the IDF deals with the Palestinian population in the West Bank, and they could certainly deal with Hamas in the Gaza strip better, but to compare Israel to Nazi Germany is a stretch. This false equivalency is a favorite among the critics of Israel, and people who use it usually only do so to stir emotions in people. Israeli Arabs have full protection under the law of Israel. Does it always work out that way in practice? No, but the same can be said for every other country, and probably every other former country on Earth. I have to ask, did Jews/Roma or anyother people considered by Nazi Germany to be sub-human have representation in the Reichstag? No, of course they didn't (not after 1933 anyways). On the other hand, Israeli Arabs have representation in the Knesset (about 13 of the 120 seats, or a bit more than 10%). And these are just seats belonging to the Joint List who represents Israeli Arab interests. To compare Israel to Nazi Germany is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
Oh, I didn't mean to compare present-day Israel with Nazi Germany. As I said, I think Israel is best compared with the average 19th century European nation-state that persecuted its ethnic minorities.
I meant to compare Pretantia's ideas with Nazism - and to point out where the logic of ethnic nationalism eventually leads if you keep going down that route.
Israel is absolutely not comparable with Nazi Germany in any way at the present time. But if the current status quo continues for another 50 years, I think there is a real possibility that Israel could go in that direction. After all, extreme Zionists want to purge the Arabs from Judea and Samaria, and it is very clear that no amount of persecution is going to make them emigrate in large enough numbers to achieve that. It is only a matter of time until someone asks, "why don't we just kill them all?"
When you are dedicated to the project of purging your country of undesirable ethnic groups, and when it becomes clear that you can't pressure them to emigrate fast enough, someone always puts the genocide option on the table eventually.
by Constantinopolis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:56 pm
Yurizlansia wrote:Ok, I guess I misunderstood your comments, sorry about that.
Alsheb wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:I agree. That's why I'm framing the issue in terms of Israel giving citizenship and equal rights to Palestinians. Because realistically, that is the only way the Palestinians are ever going to get their rights back. The State of Israel cannot be defeated, and trying to fight it through guerilla warfare is particularly stupid. The Palestinians need to let go of the "anti-colonial struggle" framework, and switch to a "civil rights struggle" framework. They need to follow the South Africa strategy, not the Zimbabwe strategy.
Are you suggesting a Miko Peled style of solution, with one state incorporating both grouos as equals, with redistribution of the land itself accordingly?
by Uxupox » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:57 pm
Alsheb wrote:The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Does it not require living space?
Yes, but not by violently taking land from others.
As has been said so many times before, the "Israelis" are not a homogenous ethnic group, most of them are not descended from the Hebrews, and they have no ancestral link to the land whatsoever.
Judaism is a religion. And a religion by its very definition is not limited to one ethnic group, and as such has no ethnic homeland that have right to.
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:58 pm
by Alsheb » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:59 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Yurizlansia wrote:Ok, I guess I misunderstood your comments, sorry about that.
Ah, no problem! I was happy to clarify.Alsheb wrote:
Are you suggesting a Miko Peled style of solution, with one state incorporating both grouos as equals, with redistribution of the land itself accordingly?
Yes.
And I know how unrealistic it is, but it's either that or endless war (or genocide), so... to adapt a famous Sherlock Holmes saying, when you've eliminated all of the unacceptable options, then the only option that remains, no matter how unrealistic, must be the one to pursue.
by The East Marches II » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:00 pm
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