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Middle East Conflict Megathread (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What faction(s) do you support in the Syrian civil war? Check any that apply

Syrian government/SAA
96
17%
Syrian Democratic Forces/YPG
123
22%
Tahrir al-Sham (Nusra)
10
2%
Ahrar al-Sham/other opposition
14
3%
Turkey/TFSA
20
4%
ISIS
17
3%
Hezbollah
40
7%
Russia
54
10%
United States/NATO/Israel
129
23%
Iran
49
9%
 
Total votes : 552

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Auze
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Posts: 1459
Founded: Oct 31, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Auze » Mon May 21, 2018 3:03 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Fahran wrote:That's unfortunate, though it's difficult to fault citizens for trying to fill their stomachs and provide for their families. It's not too dissimilar from the old Roman practice of patronage.


Of course. I don't blame the citizens, I'm just pointing out that without Social Rights, it's very easy to take away Civil Rights, unless we're talking about Hollywood.


Fahran wrote:There's a slight difference between the Kurds and the Libyans though. The Kurds are motivated principally by nationalism, an overarching ideology quite distinct from local kinship ties and interests. In the case of Libya, the violence is often between individual cities, tribal affiliations, and the like, most extremely localized and often only loosely aligned with a higher authority. I do get your point though.


If that's the case, explain this: https://warontherocks.com/2017/10/debun ... -and-iran/

Iraqi forces did not “invade” Kirkuk. Rather, they entered Iraqi state territory through a negotiated settlement with some Kurdish officials. According to PUK official Bafel Talabani, the withdrawal of Peshmerga forces was essentially a tactical retreat from the Iraqi Army’s superior military power. It was an expected consequence of the Kurdistan Regional Government’s territorial overreach and the over-determined capabilities of its defense structures – unfortunately, however, not one expected by Barzani. Although the Kurdish security apparatus, including Peshmerga forces, courageously helped to push back ISIL, it is inherently vulnerable and internally divided.


Put more bluntly: one Kurdish faction betrayed another, and as a result the Iraqis took Kirkuk.


Fahran wrote:I actually don't disagree with this. It would probably be one of my preferred conclusions to the conflict in Syria, though Assad transitioning from an autocratic to a democratic leader within a federal framework would not perturb me all that much either. My principal complaint isn't necessarily against dictatorship, but rather against poor governance more generally. Qaddafi and Assad mismanaged the political life of their nations and neglected to ensure the welfare of a substantial number of people. They indulged in their appetites, stumbled into needless international squabbles, and alienated important allies. They would not have faced popular uprisings had they governed virtuously.


That's true, but that can be said about the majority of Governments. Should all of them be toppled? If not, how do we handle the issue?


Fahran wrote:No, but Milosevic was charged with war crimes and human rights abuses pertaining to the ethnic violence in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as in Kosovo. Some of his cabinet officials have even stated that he played an important role in the military decisions made in the early nineties, insinuating at least some degree of culpability. I do not believe that Milosevic was an ultra-nationalist so much as a political opportunist though, at least judging from descriptions of his character.


Fair enough, although the very same cabinet officials could've made those claims to get a lighter sentence. However, I'm talking about Kosovo, rather than the Yugoslav Civil War. North Kosovo has clear borders, which are, at least de facto, internationally recognized. Why not let them hold their own Referendum, like the Albanians had in South Kosovo?


Fahran wrote:Yes, though that could easily devolve into independence if caution is not employed. At the very least Rojava should probably receive a degree of autonomy. As you mentioned previously, the Turkish occupation could foster some degree of unity between Arabs and Kurds.


I'm all for major autonomy gains for Rojava, provided that its people support autonomy. And if it leads to independence over time, I'd be ok with that, provided that enough time passes and it's not a spur of the moment decision.


Fahran wrote:Qaddafi had mismanaged the military as well though. Had a force on par with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard or Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard met the rebels, it would have been a complete slaughter. As it happens, the Libyan army eventually broke and fell to peaces, and then everyone with a small grudge began defecting. Haftar for instance, though Qaddafi did stab him in the back before.


Haftar defected long before that. Being betrayed for doing your duty by the man whom you worshiped, is going to leave a very sour taste in your mouth.


Fahran wrote:The GNC is horribly inept, but I'm not certain that Haftar would have the popular support to suppress all the tribal militias beyond Benghazi, his principal base of support. He'd almost be better off standing as a democratic leader, though I'm not certain he'd want to relinquish his hold on the military to do that.


If he relinquishes his hold on the military, he relinquishes his power base. He gets that. You don't want to be a democratic leader in name only. You need to be able to carry out your decisions, otherwise someone like Andrew Jackson might come along and say: "Haftar has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"


Fahran wrote:You're right on that front, hence his violating red lines with impunity.


The problem is that now he might also be framed for it. If you want to go after a known car thief, it'd be easier to frame him for a car theft. I think we should have international monitors on the ground from all five UNSC permanent members, working together to prevent these abuses, but I doubt that they'll agree.


Fahran wrote:You're forgetting about the Crimean Tartars and a decent number of ethnic Ukrainians, both of whom had rather vocal reservations about the reclamation of Crimea. Just as I don't expect Russia to partition the Crimea to appease ethnic minorities, I'm skeptical that Kosovo would bother ceding its northern territories to Syria under the present circumstances.


I doubt that Kosovo will be ceding anything to Syria :P

Yes, I know you meant Serbia, and I think that, eventually, Kosovo will do that, but I just wanted to be a smartass. Anyways, onto Crimea. One of the interesting things about Crimea, is that the Russians opened it up to International Tourism, and opened full access to Crimea. It's the West that's been punishing, or attempting to punish people for merely traveling to Crimea. So if the West is claiming that Russians are oppressing the People of Crimea, why not let their citizens travel to Crimea and be appalled? And if the Russians are so oppressive in Crimea, why open the floodgates and let oppression flow out of Russia? And where's all the news about the Crimean Oppression that's backed up by major factual trends?

The reality is that Crimea's not oppressed. By Russian Standards, by Eastern European Standards, or even by European Standards, Crimeans are loving it. One of the best sources on Russia is Russia Insider, because it's citizen journalism at its finest. Speaking of Crimea: https://russia-insider.com/en/case-crim ... ation/5584

During his interview, President Putin stated that prior to Crimea’s annexation by Russia, a covert poll was conducted, showing 75% of Crimeans favoring unity with Russia. This is backed up by the results from RIA News, at 77%, and from Sevastopol News, at 80%...

After the Referendum, the Crimeans continued to tell anyone who’d listen in the West, through polling, that they wanted to be with Russia and that in their eyes the Referendum was legitimate, whether it’s Gallup’s 83% figure, GFK’s 82% figure, or Pew’s 88% figure. Irrespective of how the Crimean Referendum was conducted, the Will of the Crimean People is clear: Unity with Russia.

The Referendum’s numbers are similar. Roughly 80.4% of Crimeans turned out to vote on the Referendum and voted yes, as did 85.6% of the residents of Sevastopol. Considering that roughly about 15% of Crimeans live in Sevastopol, and 85% in the Peninsula, after adjusting those numbers we get a general voting tally of 81.2%, which is within the legitimate margin of error of 80%. The increase from 75% to 80% can easily be explained by President Putin’s pledge to provide massive economic assistance to Crimea.


Just the pure facts. I love it! With that said, let's take a look at the Demographics of Crimea:

Russians - 65%
Ukrainians - 16%
Tatars - 12%
Others - 7%


For the sake of the argument, let's presume that Others and Ukrainians voted 90% like Russians. It's already a very generous assumption, but let's roll with it. We have that data - Sevastopol is primarily Russian, and even the Ukrainians in Sevastopol have been Russified. Even in Sevastopol, 14.4% of the residents opposed the Referendum, or didn't show up to the polls. So let's do some math: 65*0.856+23*0.856*0.9 = 55.64+17.72 = 73.36%. But the vote was 80.4%. Where's the other 7% coming from? Why the Crimean Tatars. But wait - they're 12% of the population, and 7% voted? That means the majority of Crimean Tatars supported Unity with Russia as well. How's that possible? Did CNN lie?

Of course. In fact, the Crimean Tatar "leadership" in Crimea was able to amass just 62,448 votes in the 2006 Crimean local election. By 2010, their numbers fell to 51,253 votes. They don't represent the Crimean Tatars. They represent their own wallets. But how many Americans are going to look at local Crimean Election Results? So the Western Press continues to brazenly lie and portray them as representatives of the Crimean Tatars, and anyone pointing out the facts is a Russian Bot.

The Crimean Tatars and Human rights watch disagree
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Improved werpland
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Founded: May 02, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Improved werpland » Mon May 21, 2018 8:14 pm

The reality is that Crimea's not oppressed. By Russian Standards, by Eastern European Standards, or even by European Standards, Crimeans are loving it. One of the best sources on Russia is Russia Insider, because it's citizen journalism at its finest.

A website which has an entire section called “The Jewish Question” is citizen journalism at its finest. rotflmao
Last edited by Improved werpland on Tue May 22, 2018 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Bakery Hill
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Posts: 11973
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakery Hill » Mon May 21, 2018 9:53 pm

MERIZoC wrote:Damascus has been fully liberated.

"Liberated"
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Shofercia
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Posts: 28848
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Mon May 21, 2018 9:59 pm



Ahh yes, the HRW's opinions on Russia, quiet hilarious. From one of their links:

Today, Russia is more repressive than it has ever been in the post-Soviet era. The state has tightened control over free expression, assembly, and speech, aiming to silence independent critics, including online.


If only we had the facts: http://akarlin.com/2012/05/russian-jour ... r-yeltsin/

homicides per 100,000 journalists are compared with the population as a whole. As one can see from the above graph, Russian journalists were always safer than the average Russian citizen, and are now safer by an order of magnitude. Only one Russian journalist was killed in 2010 and 2011 for a rate of about 0.5/100,000 per year, relative to an overall homicide rate of slightly less than 10/100,000... The same cannot be said of the other countries we are comparing Russian journalists to. In 2010, the homicide rate in Mexico was 18/100,000 (vs. 77/100,000 for journalists), in Brazil it was 25/100,000 (vs. 14/100,000 for journalists in 2010, but soaring to 87/100,000 in 2011), and in India it was 3.4/100,000 (vs. 12/100,000 for journalists)... There were 41 journalists killed in Russia from 1992-1999, compared to 30 from 2000-2008, and 6 from 2009-today (of which 5 occurred in 2009). Does this then mean that Yeltsin, not Putin, was the real Stalin? Of course not. The journalist killings in the 1990’s were a product of the chaos and lawlessness of that time, much like the narco-related killings decimating the ranks of Colombian, Brazilian, and Mexican journalists today.


But please HRW, tell me how awesome life was for Russians in the 1990s, and had bad Putin made it...

The organization that they're talking about is the Mejlis. What the HRW conveniently forgets to mention, is that the Mejlis does not represent most Crimea Tatars, that they weren't even able to get the votes of most of the Crimean Tatars in local elections in 2006 and 2010, and that their share of the vote between the Crimean Tatars actually shrank between the 2006 and 2010 election. But saying that "Russia's persecuting a political party that's deliberately taking a dump on the Russian Constitution", while honest, isn't the pizazz that HRW is looking for. It's much better to pretend that all Crimean Tatars are borg, erm, Mejlis. After all, who's going to look at the results of the local Crimean Elections?

Name a single Crimean Tatar who was persecuted, who's not a member of the Mejlis, and had no ties to the Mejlis, or other extremist groups. Just one. Not to mention that I already showed that the majority of Crimean Tatars favored Crimea's Reclamation by Russia, using simple math.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Mon May 21, 2018 10:05 pm

Improved werpland wrote:
The reality is that Crimea's not oppressed. By Russian Standards, by Eastern European Standards, or even by European Standards, Crimeans are loving it. One of the best sources on Russia is Russia Insider, because it's citizen journalism at its finest.

A website which has an entire section called “The Jewish Question” is citizen journalism at it’s finest. rotflmao


Almost every citizen journalist website is going to have nutjobs. I tend to focus on the facts and hard core analysis. You bring up one of the sections that has nutjobs. And no one on NSG is surprised. I wonder why...
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The Knockout Gun Gals
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Founded: Aug 06, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Mon May 21, 2018 10:11 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
MERIZoC wrote:Damascus has been fully liberated.

"Liberated"


Liberated from the terrors.
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
TriStates wrote:Covenant declare a crusade, and wage jihad against the UNSC and Insurrectionists for 30 years.

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MERIZoC
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Mon May 21, 2018 10:52 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
MERIZoC wrote:Damascus has been fully liberated.

"Liberated"

Did I stutter
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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am

MERIZoC wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:"Liberated"

Did I stutter

Stuttering is fine, b-bullshit isn't. :^)
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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Tue May 22, 2018 1:27 am

have not putin assad erdogan kadirov been hanged nor facing trial for their genocides, yet? *edited
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Mon May 28, 2018 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The of Japan
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Founded: Jul 30, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The of Japan » Tue May 22, 2018 4:51 am

Bakery Hill wrote:
MERIZoC wrote:Did I stutter

Stuttering is fine, b-bullshit isn't. :^)

Yarmouk was liberated, no question about it.

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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Tue May 22, 2018 6:26 am

The of Japan wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:Stuttering is fine, b-bullshit isn't. :^)

Yarmouk was liberated, no question about it.

A large bad group of people took a half destroyed refugee camp from a smaller nightmarishly bad group of people. Long live freedom! Liberation! And which ever businessman/mafia figure the Emir of Damascus has gifted this area to!
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Nazis in Space
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Postby Nazis in Space » Tue May 22, 2018 7:39 am

Improved werpland wrote:
The reality is that Crimea's not oppressed. By Russian Standards, by Eastern European Standards, or even by European Standards, Crimeans are loving it. One of the best sources on Russia is Russia Insider, because it's citizen journalism at its finest.

A website which has an entire section called “The Jewish Question” is citizen journalism at it’s finest. rotflmao

Well, if it is advertised as citizen journalism at its finest, I believe we should take this at face value.

A look into the soul of Russian public opinion.

Make of that what you will.

And, uh, if you're jewish and living in Russia?

Emigrate.

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Socialist Czechia
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Founded: Apr 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Czechia » Tue May 22, 2018 9:05 pm

Nazis in Space wrote:
Improved werpland wrote:A website which has an entire section called “The Jewish Question” is citizen journalism at it’s finest. rotflmao

Well, if it is advertised as citizen journalism at its finest, I believe we should take this at face value.

A look into the soul of Russian public opinion.

Make of that what you will.

And, uh, if you're jewish and living in Russia?

Emigrate.


Why Russians should be any different from their ancestors in 1914?

USSR didn't change the basics at all: imperialism, panslavism or antisemitism remained strong. But in the end, Germans seriously exterminated them, not Russians. :) Aren't there more Jews with Russian background than German one as result?

So, Russians are clearly a better people after all :P
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue May 22, 2018 10:10 pm

Phoenicaea wrote:have not putin assad erdogan karazov been hanged nor facing trial for their genocides, yet?


Who's Karazov? Did you mean Karamazov? If so, which one? Or both?


Socialist Czechia wrote:
Nazis in Space wrote:Well, if it is advertised as citizen journalism at its finest, I believe we should take this at face value.

A look into the soul of Russian public opinion.

Make of that what you will.

And, uh, if you're jewish and living in Russia?

Emigrate.


Why Russians should be any different from their ancestors in 1914?

USSR didn't change the basics at all: imperialism, panslavism or antisemitism remained strong. But in the end, Germans seriously exterminated them, not Russians. :) Aren't there more Jews with Russian background than German one as result?

So, Russians are clearly a better people after all :P


Sounds like someone's been burned! Finally I get to post this: https://media.giphy.com/media/pQmWjYrz39YAg/giphy.gif
Last edited by Shofercia on Tue May 22, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alsheb
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Postby Alsheb » Sun May 27, 2018 3:43 am

Reports have it that Abha International Airport in the southern Saudi province of Asir was put out of commission after being struck by drone airstrikes from Yemen.

For all their prowess and fancy high-tech weaponry, Saudi Arabia is truly a pathetic country when it comes to battle. Yemen is taking the fight to them.
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Socialist Czechia
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Postby Socialist Czechia » Sun May 27, 2018 11:03 am

Not only that. When Saudi regime will fall, it will be a great bloodshed, since they increasingly suck in population control.

When soldiers will start to shoot their own officers, smart ones should use first jet to leave the country.
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Erdogan in cool sunglasses
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Postby Erdogan in cool sunglasses » Sun May 27, 2018 11:13 am

When the regime will fell, nothing will happen. Arabs don't want to fight even with Yemen. I heard that when a new wave of soldiers is needed to active fight (for example against Yemen) fathers of the conscripted getting very ill (when father of soldier is dying of illness, the soldier is allowed to return home). I don't see people like that fighting or even shooting the officers. They probably don't care about the regime as long as the economy is going well.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue May 29, 2018 6:00 am

Socialist Czechia wrote:Not only that. When Saudi regime will fall, it will be a great bloodshed, since they increasingly suck in population control.

When soldiers will start to shoot their own officers, smart ones should use first jet to leave the country.

The Saudi regime collapsing would probably represent a complete disaster for the region given the proclivities of the populace at large.

Alsheb wrote:For all their prowess and fancy high-tech weaponry, Saudi Arabia is truly a pathetic country when it comes to battle. Yemen is taking the fight to them.

The Houthis haven't even managed to gain decisive control of their own country. I'm skeptical that they can accomplish anything remarkable against the Saudis in spite of the incompetence of the latter. I'm waiting for Eritrea to conquer the country at this point.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue May 29, 2018 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue May 29, 2018 10:34 am

Pilarcraft wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Sassanid Empire best empire.
Boo. Zoroastrian Theocracy is no better than Islamic Theocracy. I personally prefer The Achaemenids (at least, until before Ardeshir I) and the Ashkanids, even though they had somewhat of a Hellenistic theme.

Were the Sasanians really a theocracy, though?
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Pilarcraft
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Postby Pilarcraft » Tue May 29, 2018 10:38 am

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Pilarcraft wrote:Boo. Zoroastrian Theocracy is no better than Islamic Theocracy. I personally prefer The Achaemenids (at least, until before Ardeshir I) and the Ashkanids, even though they had somewhat of a Hellenistic theme.

Were the Sasanians really a theocracy, though?
To be precise, Yes. The Entire reason the Empire even came to be was because The Zoroastrian Mages (I always crack up when I say that) were threatened by the religious diversity in the late Ashkanid period and the lack of fucks the Administration had to give about it. They effectively ran the country's elective (well, kinda elective. Elected by a small council from a pool of candidates given by the previous Shahanshah) monarchy and its laws were based on their interpretation of The Zoroastrian religion. And, especially at the late Sasanid Period... they weren't really anything to look up to.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue May 29, 2018 10:43 am

Pilarcraft wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:Were the Sasanians really a theocracy, though?
To be precise, Yes. The Entire reason the Empire even came to be was because The Zoroastrian Mages (I always crack up when I say that) were threatened by the religious diversity in the late Ashkanid period and the lack of fucks the Administration had to give about it. They effectively ran the country's elective (well, kinda elective. Elected by a small council from a pool of candidates given by the previous Shahanshah) monarchy and its laws were based on their interpretation of The Zoroastrian religion. And, especially at the late Sasanid Period... they weren't really anything to look up to.

I mean, this is like saying that Britain was/is a theocracy, though. Just because a monarch has the support of the religious establishment and is guided by religious principles, doesn't really make it a theocracy. Theocracy is defined as direct rule by priests or clerics. ie. modern Iran or the Vatican.
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Pilarcraft
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Postby Pilarcraft » Tue May 29, 2018 10:46 am

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Pilarcraft wrote:To be precise, Yes. The Entire reason the Empire even came to be was because The Zoroastrian Mages (I always crack up when I say that) were threatened by the religious diversity in the late Ashkanid period and the lack of fucks the Administration had to give about it. They effectively ran the country's elective (well, kinda elective. Elected by a small council from a pool of candidates given by the previous Shahanshah) monarchy and its laws were based on their interpretation of The Zoroastrian religion. And, especially at the late Sasanid Period... they weren't really anything to look up to.

I mean, this is like saying that Britain was/is a theocracy, though. Just because a monarch has the support of the religious establishment and is guided by religious principles, doesn't really make it a theocracy. Theocracy is defined as direct rule by priests or clerics. ie. modern Iran or the Vatican.
Britain, or really most of the world at given times (apart from the bishoprics etc.) had their own separate legislature. For most of the world, this usually meant the word of the ruler. In Britain, as you suggested, they literally had a legislature that was strongly, especially at some points, influenced by the clergy. But Iran's law book was almost totally The Avesta. They only made laws where the Avesta had nothing to say. (As opposed to The Achaemenid Empire or the Parthian Empire, where a separate legislature existed etc.) so yeah, if we define it by "ruled by the clergy", it wouldn't necessarily be a theocracy, but it was still ruled by the Avesta and, in reality, the word of the clergy, though the Shahanshah had ultimately the final word in the matter.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue May 29, 2018 10:49 am

Pilarcraft wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:I mean, this is like saying that Britain was/is a theocracy, though. Just because a monarch has the support of the religious establishment and is guided by religious principles, doesn't really make it a theocracy. Theocracy is defined as direct rule by priests or clerics. ie. modern Iran or the Vatican.
Britain, or really most of the world at given times (apart from the bishoprics etc.) had their own separate legislature. For most of the world, this usually meant the word of the ruler. In Britain, as you suggested, they literally had a legislature that was strongly, especially at some points, influenced by the clergy. But Iran's law book was almost totally The Avesta. They only made laws where the Avesta had nothing to say. (As opposed to The Achaemenid Empire or the Parthian Empire, where a separate legislature existed etc.) so yeah, if we define it by "ruled by the clergy", it wouldn't necessarily be a theocracy, but it was still ruled by the Avesta and, in reality, the word of the clergy, though the Shahanshah had ultimately the final word in the matter.

Theocracy is much harder to define in ancient times, yeah. Especially when trying to decide between it or monarchy. Largely, most monarchies of ancient times would fall under the definition of a theocracy but the distinction becomes so hazy that it is rarely used.
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Improved werpland
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Ex-Nation

Postby Improved werpland » Tue May 29, 2018 3:11 pm

Shofercia wrote:Name a single Crimean Tatar who was persecuted, who's not a member of the Mejlis, and had no ties to the Mejlis, or other extremist groups. Just one. Not to mention that I already showed that the majority of Crimean Tatars favored Crimea's Reclamation by Russia, using simple math.

Wow, very insightful, especially considering the Party of Regions appointed a Holocaust denier to replace the Majlis’ head a state agency. The Majlis is an extremist organization and it’s okay to disappear their members because they advocate for autonomy in opposition to a constitution nobody actually cares about, but the Crimean Russians who are 100% against Nazism are literally antifa angels for doing the same thing. This is why Russland, within its current borders, needs to be abolished.
Last edited by Improved werpland on Tue May 29, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Tue May 29, 2018 3:12 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
MERIZoC wrote:Damascus has been fully liberated.

"Liberated"


By who?
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