Middle East Conflict Megathread (Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc)

[Kennlind]

Wrong. The recognized Syrian government invited them. The West is illegally backed by al-Qaeda jihadists.

What

I meant welcomed into Syria

[MERIZoC]

Wrong. The recognized Syrian government invited them. The West is illegally backed by al-Qaeda jihadists.

What

The CIA is a Nusra psy-op

[Benuty]

What

The CIA is a Nusra psy-op

The CIA is clearly the OSS in blackface undercover as a triple agent reverse mole for the KGB.

[Empire of Cats]

and Russia along with Hezbollah and Iran can fuck off from Syria because it is an internal Syrian matter.

Wrong. The recognized Syrian government invited them. The West is illegally backed by al-Qaeda jihadists.

now that argument has a density of bullshit rivaled by almost none other

the Ukrainian government are europhilic fascists. Russia is defending ethnic Russians from them.

Sounds remarkably similar to what Adolph Hitler used to justify his occupation of the Sutenland.....you know, a "Greater German Reich", with "ethnic" Germans from Austria, the Sutenland, Poland, Alsace-Lorraine, etc. Didn't Hitler claim he was "protecting" them from oppression?

[Empire of Cats]

If you value legitimacy, why do you support the Russian intervention in Eastern Ukraine?

Because I see the Ukrainian government as illegitimate.

So it's a matter of perception then? Because most nations recognize the Ukrainian government as legitimate, corrupt or not. In which case, if this is about perception, what about nations that perceive the Syrian government as illegitimate?

[Washington Resistance Army]

For what reasons exactly?

Because they sent their country and countrymen to the shitter by betraying their interests for Western money. Ukraine is, by far, the most corrupt country in Europe.

Tbqh I think Moldova might take that title.

[Potential Place]

Because they sent their country and countrymen to the shitter by betraying their interests for Western money. Ukraine is, by far, the most corrupt country in Europe.

Tbqh I think Moldova might take that title.

Moldova is probably the only country where both sides of the political spectrum are actually controlled by a single oligarch. It desperately needs to be annexed by Romania along with their Soviet-cosplaying breakaway territory.

[Shofercia]

Wrong. The recognized Syrian government invited them. The West is illegally backed by al-Qaeda jihadists.


the Ukrainian government are europhilic fascists. Russia is defending ethnic Russians from them.

Sounds remarkably similar to what Adolph Hitler used to justify his occupation of the Sutenland.....you know, a "Greater German Reich", with "ethnic" Germans from Austria, the Sutenland, Poland, Alsace-Lorraine, etc. Didn't Hitler claim he was "protecting" them from oppression?

My goodness - you've just argued that Mugabe = MLK Jr! I mean they both said the exact same thing about protecting black people who were oppressed, so clearly - they're one and the same! That's the logic you're using, isn't it? Hitler also claimed that a country should have a strong armed forces, wanted an alliance that spent much more than 2% of its GDP on the armed forces, hmm... who else does that?

Just giving you a taste of what your argument sounds like... total bullshit. Russia has a law where ethnic Russians living in former Soviet States can move into Russia through a simplified visa process - did Hitler have said law? Putin pointed out, correctly, that when the USSR fell apart, the ethnic Russians living abroad had to contend not just with a new government, but also became a part, against their Will expressed in a Referendum, of a brand new country. And said countries sometimes proceeded to loot the pensions, property, and a couple of other stuff from ethnic Russians, akin to what was done to the Serbs in Kosovo.

For instance, let's take a look how ethnic Russians fared in the Baltic States:
1979 - 1,533,735
1989 - 1,724,804
2000 - 1,274,210
2010 - 998,676

That's a decrease of ethnic Russians by 42%. Such a decrease was not seen in Stalin's reign, not even during Holodomor. But hey, they're not oppressed, it's just that 42% decided to vacation elsewhere... permanently.

How about the Caucasus:
1979 - 917,199
1989 - 785,031
2001 - 249,854
2011 - 184,427

Clearly no oppression here, moving on... (that was sarcasm)

Central Asia:
1979 - 9,312,762
1989 - 9,515,103
1999 - 6,540,494
2010 - 5,309,097

A 42% decrease. It's almost as if it's a trend!

Eastern Europe:
1979 - 12,111,449
1989 - 13,259,750
2001 - 10,118,737
2010 - 7,399,629

A 43% decrease. Granted, Ukraine's figures are estimates, since the country didn't give a shit about a census after 2001, but said estimates are extremely generous. And since that's 2010, that includes Crimea. Why have facts when you can have fiction? Seems to be the Ukrainian motto. So yes, there is oppression of ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet States. Quite a bit of it.

Speaking of Crimea - how did it fair?
1979 - 1,460,980
1989 - 1,629,542
2001 - 1,450,394
2014 - 1,492,078

Oh hey, that's a decrease of just 8%. How about Russia?

1979 - 113,521,881
1989 - 119,865,469
2002 - 115,889,107
2010 - 111,016,896

That's a decrease of about 7%. Such decreases happen when there's a radical change in Government. But there's quite a bit of difference between 7%/8% and 42%/43%.

Speaking of why we consider most of the Western Funded Human Rights Organizations a joke - where were they when the ethnic Russians in Chechnya truly needed them? Nowhere to be fucking found. When ethnic Russian women were being raped by IIPB, when men were executed for their speech and faith, when slavery of ethnic Russians was rampant, the Human Rights Organizations were... not doing their job. It's only after the passage of the anti-Gay law that they "discovered" that Gays were being oppressed in Chechnya. It's a bit hard to work with someone who's using Human Rights as a mere political pressure lever, so they can, kindly, fuck off.

Ethnic Russians in Chechnya:
1979 - 307,079
1989 - 269,130
2002 - 40,645
2010 - 24,382

Look at that drop between 1989 and 2002. Here's a snippet from a report by a SpetzNaz officer, showing an instance of actual slavery:

А вот из кухни куда-то вниз в подвал вела хорошая деревянная лестница. Головная пара осторожно начала спускаться вниз. Раздались какие-то крики, однако выстрелов не последовало. Пришлось самому спуститься вниз. В подвале было намного теплее и светлее от тех же самых газовых горелок. Кипрач и Еж держали под прицелом несколько сгорбленных фигур забившихся в угол, и прикрывающих головы руками. Какие-то старые грязные, седые мужики в обносках. На вид совсем не чеченцы. Увидев меня они зашевелились ,и с боязнью косясь на автоматы, начали нести какую-то чушь. На боевиков не похожи, скорее всего какие-то бомжи или рабы впахивающие на своих хозяев. Так оно и оказалось, мужики были местные из русских.

Проживали себе спокойно до войны, трудились, кто где. Перед началом войны уехать не успели. Во время бомбёжек, потеряли, кто родственников, кто жильё. Их всех по одному, кого откуда повыдергивали боевики и заставляли рыть окопы, строить завалы в городе, изредка кормили всякой дрянью, кого-то просто так пристрелили, кто-то сам умер или попал под бомбежку или удары артиллерии. Боевикам они были нужны как бесплатная рабочая сила, нашим властям они были не нужны вообще. Поговорив немного с бедолагами и успокоив их, я выдернул одного наиболее смышленого и начал расспрашивать , про то где они работали. Мужик по образованию оказался в прошлом архитектором и вполне толково на моем плане указал, где какие работы они выполняли.

Rough summary:

"While my unit was exploring the basement, I heard screams, without fire. It was warmer in the basement due to artificially generated heat. Two of my men were holding a group of men who were scared shitless, and covering their faces with their hands. They were old and dirty, not the Chechens that we usually encountered. Upon a closer look, I realized that they were slaves, waiting the return of their masters [whom we've eliminated a few hours before]. They lived and worked as simple folk, prior to the war. They couldn't make it out on time..."

"... When the bombing started, they lost their relatives and homes, and as the war progressed, they were enslaved and forced to do hard labor. They were rarely fed. Some died due to malnutrition, some were shot [for things like asking for water]. Terrorists needed them as a free labor force. The Yeltsin Regime didn't give a flying fuck about them. I spoke to one of the men, he told me everything I needed to know, [and we ended up feeding them, giving them plenty of drinking water, and freeing them to flee back to Russia]."

The parts in [] are taken from other parts of the story. They got lucky. How many died? How many perished from hunger, or treatable deceases?

[The East Marches II]

Sounds remarkably similar to what Adolph Hitler used to justify his occupation of the Sutenland.....you know, a "Greater German Reich", with "ethnic" Germans from Austria, the Sutenland, Poland, Alsace-Lorraine, etc. Didn't Hitler claim he was "protecting" them from oppression?

My goodness - you've just argued that Mugabe = MLK Jr! I mean they both said the exact same thing about protecting black people who were oppressed, so clearly - they're one and the same! That's the logic you're using, isn't it? Hitler also claimed that a country should have a strong armed forces, wanted an alliance that spent much more than 2% of its GDP on the armed forces, hmm... who else does that?

Just giving you a taste of what your argument sounds like... total bullshit. Russia has a law where ethnic Russians living in former Soviet States can move into Russia through a simplified visa process - did Hitler have said law? Putin pointed out, correctly, that when the USSR fell apart, the ethnic Russians living abroad had to contend not just with a new government, but also became a part, against their Will expressed in a Referendum, of a brand new country. And said countries sometimes proceeded to loot the pensions, property, and a couple of other stuff from ethnic Russians, akin to what was done to the Serbs in Kosovo.

For instance, let's take a look how ethnic Russians fared in the Baltic States:
1979 - 1,533,735
1989 - 1,724,804
2000 - 1,274,210
2010 - 998,676

That's a decrease of ethnic Russians by 42%. Such a decrease was not seen in Stalin's reign, not even during Holodomor. But hey, they're not oppressed, it's just that 42% decided to vacation elsewhere... permanently.

How about the Caucasus:
1979 - 917,199
1989 - 785,031
2001 - 249,854
2011 - 184,427

Clearly no oppression here, moving on... (that was sarcasm)

Central Asia:
1979 - 9,312,762
1989 - 9,515,103
1999 - 6,540,494
2010 - 5,309,097

A 42% decrease. It's almost as if it's a trend!

Eastern Europe:
1979 - 12,111,449
1989 - 13,259,750
2001 - 10,118,737
2010 - 7,399,629

A 43% decrease. Granted, Ukraine's figures are estimates, since the country didn't give a shit about a census after 2001, but said estimates are extremely generous. And since that's 2010, that includes Crimea. Why have facts when you can have fiction? Seems to be the Ukrainian motto. So yes, there is oppression of ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet States. Quite a bit of it.

Speaking of Crimea - how did it fair?
1979 - 1,460,980
1989 - 1,629,542
2001 - 1,450,394
2014 - 1,492,078

Oh hey, that's a decrease of just 8%. How about Russia?

1979 - 113,521,881
1989 - 119,865,469
2002 - 115,889,107
2010 - 111,016,896

That's a decrease of about 7%. Such decreases happen when there's a radical change in Government. But there's quite a bit of difference between 7%/8% and 42%/43%.

Speaking of why we consider most of the Western Funded Human Rights Organizations a joke - where were they when the ethnic Russians in Chechnya truly needed them? Nowhere to be fucking found. When ethnic Russian women were being raped by IIPB, when men were executed for their speech and faith, when slavery of ethnic Russians was rampant, the Human Rights Organizations were... not doing their job. It's only after the passage of the anti-Gay law that they "discovered" that Gays were being oppressed in Chechnya. It's a bit hard to work with someone who's using Human Rights as a mere political pressure lever, so they can, kindly, fuck off.

Ethnic Russians in Chechnya:
1979 - 307,079
1989 - 269,130
2002 - 40,645
2010 - 24,382

Look at that drop between 1989 and 2002. Here's a snippet from a report by a SpetzNaz officer, showing an instance of actual slavery:

А вот из кухни куда-то вниз в подвал вела хорошая деревянная лестница. Головная пара осторожно начала спускаться вниз. Раздались какие-то крики, однако выстрелов не последовало. Пришлось самому спуститься вниз. В подвале было намного теплее и светлее от тех же самых газовых горелок. Кипрач и Еж держали под прицелом несколько сгорбленных фигур забившихся в угол, и прикрывающих головы руками. Какие-то старые грязные, седые мужики в обносках. На вид совсем не чеченцы. Увидев меня они зашевелились ,и с боязнью косясь на автоматы, начали нести какую-то чушь. На боевиков не похожи, скорее всего какие-то бомжи или рабы впахивающие на своих хозяев. Так оно и оказалось, мужики были местные из русских.

Проживали себе спокойно до войны, трудились, кто где. Перед началом войны уехать не успели. Во время бомбёжек, потеряли, кто родственников, кто жильё. Их всех по одному, кого откуда повыдергивали боевики и заставляли рыть окопы, строить завалы в городе, изредка кормили всякой дрянью, кого-то просто так пристрелили, кто-то сам умер или попал под бомбежку или удары артиллерии. Боевикам они были нужны как бесплатная рабочая сила, нашим властям они были не нужны вообще. Поговорив немного с бедолагами и успокоив их, я выдернул одного наиболее смышленого и начал расспрашивать , про то где они работали. Мужик по образованию оказался в прошлом архитектором и вполне толково на моем плане указал, где какие работы они выполняли.

Rough summary:

"While my unit was exploring the basement, I heard screams, without fire. It was warmer in the basement due to artificially generated heat. Two of my men were holding a group of men who were scared shitless, and covering their faces with their hands. They were old and dirty, not the Chechens that we usually encountered. Upon a closer look, I realized that they were slaves, waiting the return of their masters [whom we've eliminated a few hours before]. They lived and worked as simple folk, prior to the war. They couldn't make it out on time..."

"... When the bombing started, they lost their relatives and homes, and as the war progressed, they were enslaved and forced to do hard labor. They were rarely fed. Some died due to malnutrition, some were shot [for things like asking for water]. Terrorists needed them as a free labor force. The Yeltsin Regime didn't give a flying fuck about them. I spoke to one of the men, he told me everything I needed to know, [and we ended up feeding them, giving them plenty of drinking water, and freeing them to flee back to Russia]."

The parts in [] are taken from other parts of the story. They got lucky. How many died? How many perished from hunger, or treatable deceases?

Boy, its almost like people realized that having Russians in large numbers in your country is trouble. A 5th column that only causes trouble. Here is to hoping they finish returning to the motherland peacefully :^)

[Shofercia]

My goodness - you've just argued that Mugabe = MLK Jr! I mean they both said the exact same thing about protecting black people who were oppressed, so clearly - they're one and the same! That's the logic you're using, isn't it? Hitler also claimed that a country should have a strong armed forces, wanted an alliance that spent much more than 2% of its GDP on the armed forces, hmm... who else does that?

Just giving you a taste of what your argument sounds like... total bullshit. Russia has a law where ethnic Russians living in former Soviet States can move into Russia through a simplified visa process - did Hitler have said law? Putin pointed out, correctly, that when the USSR fell apart, the ethnic Russians living abroad had to contend not just with a new government, but also became a part, against their Will expressed in a Referendum, of a brand new country. And said countries sometimes proceeded to loot the pensions, property, and a couple of other stuff from ethnic Russians, akin to what was done to the Serbs in Kosovo.

For instance, let's take a look how ethnic Russians fared in the Baltic States:
1979 - 1,533,735
1989 - 1,724,804
2000 - 1,274,210
2010 - 998,676

That's a decrease of ethnic Russians by 42%. Such a decrease was not seen in Stalin's reign, not even during Holodomor. But hey, they're not oppressed, it's just that 42% decided to vacation elsewhere... permanently.

How about the Caucasus:
1979 - 917,199
1989 - 785,031
2001 - 249,854
2011 - 184,427

Clearly no oppression here, moving on... (that was sarcasm)

Central Asia:
1979 - 9,312,762
1989 - 9,515,103
1999 - 6,540,494
2010 - 5,309,097

A 42% decrease. It's almost as if it's a trend!

Eastern Europe:
1979 - 12,111,449
1989 - 13,259,750
2001 - 10,118,737
2010 - 7,399,629

A 43% decrease. Granted, Ukraine's figures are estimates, since the country didn't give a shit about a census after 2001, but said estimates are extremely generous. And since that's 2010, that includes Crimea. Why have facts when you can have fiction? Seems to be the Ukrainian motto. So yes, there is oppression of ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet States. Quite a bit of it.

Speaking of Crimea - how did it fair?
1979 - 1,460,980
1989 - 1,629,542
2001 - 1,450,394
2014 - 1,492,078

Oh hey, that's a decrease of just 8%. How about Russia?

1979 - 113,521,881
1989 - 119,865,469
2002 - 115,889,107
2010 - 111,016,896

That's a decrease of about 7%. Such decreases happen when there's a radical change in Government. But there's quite a bit of difference between 7%/8% and 42%/43%.

Speaking of why we consider most of the Western Funded Human Rights Organizations a joke - where were they when the ethnic Russians in Chechnya truly needed them? Nowhere to be fucking found. When ethnic Russian women were being raped by IIPB, when men were executed for their speech and faith, when slavery of ethnic Russians was rampant, the Human Rights Organizations were... not doing their job. It's only after the passage of the anti-Gay law that they "discovered" that Gays were being oppressed in Chechnya. It's a bit hard to work with someone who's using Human Rights as a mere political pressure lever, so they can, kindly, fuck off.

Ethnic Russians in Chechnya:
1979 - 307,079
1989 - 269,130
2002 - 40,645
2010 - 24,382

Look at that drop between 1989 and 2002. Here's a snippet from a report by a SpetzNaz officer, showing an instance of actual slavery:



Rough summary:

"While my unit was exploring the basement, I heard screams, without fire. It was warmer in the basement due to artificially generated heat. Two of my men were holding a group of men who were scared shitless, and covering their faces with their hands. They were old and dirty, not the Chechens that we usually encountered. Upon a closer look, I realized that they were slaves, waiting the return of their masters [whom we've eliminated a few hours before]. They lived and worked as simple folk, prior to the war. They couldn't make it out on time..."

"... When the bombing started, they lost their relatives and homes, and as the war progressed, they were enslaved and forced to do hard labor. They were rarely fed. Some died due to malnutrition, some were shot [for things like asking for water]. Terrorists needed them as a free labor force. The Yeltsin Regime didn't give a flying fuck about them. I spoke to one of the men, he told me everything I needed to know, [and we ended up feeding them, giving them plenty of drinking water, and freeing them to flee back to Russia]."

The parts in [] are taken from other parts of the story. They got lucky. How many died? How many perished from hunger, or treatable deceases?

Boy, its almost like people realized that having Russians in large numbers in your country is trouble. A 5th column that only causes trouble. Here is to hoping they finish returning to the motherland peacefully :^)

Someone encourages ethnic cleansing in the Middle Eastern thread... what else is new? Are you saying that you'd try to deport me from the US just because I'm Russian and responded to your posts?

[The East Marches II]

Boy, its almost like people realized that having Russians in large numbers in your country is trouble. A 5th column that only causes trouble. Here is to hoping they finish returning to the motherland peacefully :^)

Someone encourages ethnic cleansing in the Middle Eastern thread... what else is new? Are you saying that you'd try to deport me from the US just because I'm Russian and responded to your posts?

Ethnic cleansing? No, its a return of a hostile alien population to its proper homeland. No different than what the Allies did to the Germans post-WW2. Thats how you avoid conflict :^)

[Shofercia]

Someone encourages ethnic cleansing in the Middle Eastern thread... what else is new? Are you saying that you'd try to deport me from the US just because I'm Russian and responded to your posts?

Ethnic cleansing? No, its a return of a hostile alien population to its proper homeland. No different than what the Allies did to the Germans post-WW2. Thats how you avoid conflict :^)

Well, then I guess I should call my attorney for the sole purposes of working on a Russian Visa :^)

[The East Marches II]

Ethnic cleansing? No, its a return of a hostile alien population to its proper homeland. No different than what the Allies did to the Germans post-WW2. Thats how you avoid conflict :^)

Well, then I guess I should call my attorney for the sole purposes of working on a Russian Visa :^)

I wouldn't want you to leave. I wouldn't wish living in Russia on my worst foe. :^)

[Shofercia]

Well, then I guess I should call my attorney for the sole purposes of working on a Russian Visa :^)

I wouldn't want you to leave. I wouldn't wish living in Russia on my worst foe. :^)

You just said that ethnic Russians should go back to Russia. I am an ethnic Russian. Seems very cut and dry to me.

[The East Marches II]

I wouldn't want you to leave. I wouldn't wish living in Russia on my worst foe. :^)

You just said that ethnic Russians should go back to Russia. I am an ethnic Russian. Seems very cut and dry to me.

Did I say that for all Russians or did I say that for the countries with historical land claims on it by the Russians? Just like the Allies after WW2. We didn't deport our Germans to Germany. Germany had no potentially revanchist claims on us :^)

[Shofercia]

You just said that ethnic Russians should go back to Russia. I am an ethnic Russian. Seems very cut and dry to me.

Did I say that for all Russians or did I say that for the countries with historical land claims on it by the Russians? Just like the Allies after WW2. We didn't deport our Germans to Germany. Germany had no potentially revanchist claims on us :^)

Yes, you did, in what is, by far, the dumbest post I have ever read on NSG:

Boy, its almost like people realized that having Russians in large numbers in your country is trouble. A 5th column that only causes trouble. Here is to hoping they finish returning to the motherland peacefully :^)

No wonder you're backtracking within 15 minutes of making said post.

[The East Marches II]

Did I say that for all Russians or did I say that for the countries with historical land claims on it by the Russians? Just like the Allies after WW2. We didn't deport our Germans to Germany. Germany had no potentially revanchist claims on us :^)

Yes, you did, in what is, by far, the dumbest post I have ever read on NSG:

Boy, its almost like people realized that having Russians in large numbers in your country is trouble. A 5th column that only causes trouble. Here is to hoping they finish returning to the motherland peacefully :^)

No wonder you're backtracking within 15 minutes of making said post.

Its stupid to remove a 5th column? I wasn't aware the gentlemen of the Allied commission were fools. Do we have large numbers of Russians that act as a 5th column? Last I checked we had maybe 350k. You are just grasping at straws. Don't worry, there is no need to be alarmed. Nobody will send you back to the poverty stricken land.

[Empire of Cats]

Sounds remarkably similar to what Adolph Hitler used to justify his occupation of the Sutenland.....you know, a "Greater German Reich", with "ethnic" Germans from Austria, the Sutenland, Poland, Alsace-Lorraine, etc. Didn't Hitler claim he was "protecting" them from oppression?

My goodness - you've just argued that Mugabe = MLK Jr! I mean they both said the exact same thing about protecting black people who were oppressed, so clearly - they're one and the same! That's the logic you're using, isn't it? Hitler also claimed that a country should have a strong armed forces, wanted an alliance that spent much more than 2% of its GDP on the armed forces, hmm... who else does that?

Just giving you a taste of what your argument sounds like... total bullshit. Russia has a law where ethnic Russians living in former Soviet States can move into Russia through a simplified visa process - did Hitler have said law? Putin pointed out, correctly, that when the USSR fell apart, the ethnic Russians living abroad had to contend not just with a new government, but also became a part, against their Will expressed in a Referendum, of a brand new country. And said countries sometimes proceeded to loot the pensions, property, and a couple of other stuff from ethnic Russians, akin to what was done to the Serbs in Kosovo.

For instance, let's take a look how ethnic Russians fared in the Baltic States:
1979 - 1,533,735
1989 - 1,724,804
2000 - 1,274,210
2010 - 998,676

That's a decrease of ethnic Russians by 42%. Such a decrease was not seen in Stalin's reign, not even during Holodomor. But hey, they're not oppressed, it's just that 42% decided to vacation elsewhere... permanently.

How about the Caucasus:
1979 - 917,199
1989 - 785,031
2001 - 249,854
2011 - 184,427

Clearly no oppression here, moving on... (that was sarcasm)

Central Asia:
1979 - 9,312,762
1989 - 9,515,103
1999 - 6,540,494
2010 - 5,309,097

A 42% decrease. It's almost as if it's a trend!

Eastern Europe:
1979 - 12,111,449
1989 - 13,259,750
2001 - 10,118,737
2010 - 7,399,629

A 43% decrease. Granted, Ukraine's figures are estimates, since the country didn't give a shit about a census after 2001, but said estimates are extremely generous. And since that's 2010, that includes Crimea. Why have facts when you can have fiction? Seems to be the Ukrainian motto. So yes, there is oppression of ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet States. Quite a bit of it.

Speaking of Crimea - how did it fair?
1979 - 1,460,980
1989 - 1,629,542
2001 - 1,450,394
2014 - 1,492,078

Oh hey, that's a decrease of just 8%. How about Russia?

1979 - 113,521,881
1989 - 119,865,469
2002 - 115,889,107
2010 - 111,016,896

That's a decrease of about 7%. Such decreases happen when there's a radical change in Government. But there's quite a bit of difference between 7%/8% and 42%/43%.

Speaking of why we consider most of the Western Funded Human Rights Organizations a joke - where were they when the ethnic Russians in Chechnya truly needed them? Nowhere to be fucking found. When ethnic Russian women were being raped by IIPB, when men were executed for their speech and faith, when slavery of ethnic Russians was rampant, the Human Rights Organizations were... not doing their job. It's only after the passage of the anti-Gay law that they "discovered" that Gays were being oppressed in Chechnya. It's a bit hard to work with someone who's using Human Rights as a mere political pressure lever, so they can, kindly, fuck off.

Ethnic Russians in Chechnya:
1979 - 307,079
1989 - 269,130
2002 - 40,645
2010 - 24,382

Look at that drop between 1989 and 2002. Here's a snippet from a report by a SpetzNaz officer, showing an instance of actual slavery:

А вот из кухни куда-то вниз в подвал вела хорошая деревянная лестница. Головная пара осторожно начала спускаться вниз. Раздались какие-то крики, однако выстрелов не последовало. Пришлось самому спуститься вниз. В подвале было намного теплее и светлее от тех же самых газовых горелок. Кипрач и Еж держали под прицелом несколько сгорбленных фигур забившихся в угол, и прикрывающих головы руками. Какие-то старые грязные, седые мужики в обносках. На вид совсем не чеченцы. Увидев меня они зашевелились ,и с боязнью косясь на автоматы, начали нести какую-то чушь. На боевиков не похожи, скорее всего какие-то бомжи или рабы впахивающие на своих хозяев. Так оно и оказалось, мужики были местные из русских.

Проживали себе спокойно до войны, трудились, кто где. Перед началом войны уехать не успели. Во время бомбёжек, потеряли, кто родственников, кто жильё. Их всех по одному, кого откуда повыдергивали боевики и заставляли рыть окопы, строить завалы в городе, изредка кормили всякой дрянью, кого-то просто так пристрелили, кто-то сам умер или попал под бомбежку или удары артиллерии. Боевикам они были нужны как бесплатная рабочая сила, нашим властям они были не нужны вообще. Поговорив немного с бедолагами и успокоив их, я выдернул одного наиболее смышленого и начал расспрашивать , про то где они работали. Мужик по образованию оказался в прошлом архитектором и вполне толково на моем плане указал, где какие работы они выполняли.

Rough summary:

"While my unit was exploring the basement, I heard screams, without fire. It was warmer in the basement due to artificially generated heat. Two of my men were holding a group of men who were scared shitless, and covering their faces with their hands. They were old and dirty, not the Chechens that we usually encountered. Upon a closer look, I realized that they were slaves, waiting the return of their masters [whom we've eliminated a few hours before]. They lived and worked as simple folk, prior to the war. They couldn't make it out on time..."

"... When the bombing started, they lost their relatives and homes, and as the war progressed, they were enslaved and forced to do hard labor. They were rarely fed. Some died due to malnutrition, some were shot [for things like asking for water]. Terrorists needed them as a free labor force. The Yeltsin Regime didn't give a flying fuck about them. I spoke to one of the men, he told me everything I needed to know, [and we ended up feeding them, giving them plenty of drinking water, and freeing them to flee back to Russia]."

The parts in [] are taken from other parts of the story. They got lucky. How many died? How many perished from hunger, or treatable deceases?

Seems like you're well versed in the subject. Kudos on the firsthand accounts.

I am not denying the oppression of ethnic Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union. Nor do I deny the facts you presented. What I am saying is that Putin's moves in Ukraine are awfully resemblant of land grabs, particularly the Crimea.

You point out that I am comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes. You're probably right. The situations are very different. I merely am saying that the similarities between the cases are rather noticeable.

You point out how ethnic Russians had no choice in their residence post-Soviet Union. So too did many ethnic Germans who lived in what became Poland or Czechoslovakia also had the same issue. Whether or not the mass persecution of these people in those nations was true or Nazi propaganda, it is undeniable that the Nazis used this as a pretext to invade and occupy their neighbors. Again, I am not saying that Russia is doing this. I'm simply explaining why I'm more skeptical of Putin's peacekeepers in the Crimea.

Is Putin right about the persecution? Probably. And he could genuinely mean that the troops in the Crimea are there to provide protection. They probably are indeed doing that. But they have also relieved their neighbor of a strategic area with vital military significance, and I'm not sold that that's just a coincidence.

If I'm cherry picking I'm sorry. I'm not trying to debate you. I'm just explaining my reasoning. It could very well be I'm wrong. But I just wanted to explain why I drew the parallel I did, even if it is one that is not very solid.

[Shofercia]

Yes, you did, in what is, by far, the dumbest post I have ever read on NSG:



No wonder you're backtracking within 15 minutes of making said post.

Its stupid to remove a 5th column? I wasn't aware the gentlemen of the Allied commission were fools. Do we have large numbers of Russians that act as a 5th column? Last I checked we had maybe 350k. You are just grasping at straws. Don't worry, there is no need to be alarmed. Nobody will send you back to the poverty stricken land.

Oh I know, my attorney will make sure of that. But it helps having a Russian Visa, just in case Germany counter-sanctions the US. Besides, I've benefited the US economy quite a bit, so perhaps it's time I benefit Russia's economy... you certainly make a strong argument for doing the latter.

Oh, and speaking of stupidity, it's rather idiotic to devote limited resources to fight a fifth column where none exists. There are two kinds of people: those who figured out that Ukraine's troubles come from Oligarchs, be they pro or anti Russian or pro or anti American, and the type that still has no clue what's going on in Ukraine. Pro-tip: if you want to actually matter in the World, it's best not pulling a Don Quixote. If you don't, keep on going for those nonexistent fifth columns! Some people think that the best life is being homeless, who am I to judge? If that's what they want, I'd give it to them, if I could.

[The East Marches II]

Its stupid to remove a 5th column? I wasn't aware the gentlemen of the Allied commission were fools. Do we have large numbers of Russians that act as a 5th column? Last I checked we had maybe 350k. You are just grasping at straws. Don't worry, there is no need to be alarmed. Nobody will send you back to the poverty stricken land.

Oh I know, my attorney will make sure of that. But it helps having a Russian Visa, just in case Germany counter-sanctions the US. Besides, I've benefited the US economy quite a bit, so perhaps it's time I benefit Russia's economy... you certainly make a strong argument for doing the latter.

Oh, and speaking of stupidity, it's rather idiotic to devote limited resources to fight a fifth column where none exists. There are two kinds of people: those who figured out that Ukraine's troubles come from Oligarchs, be they pro or anti Russian or pro or anti American, and the type that still has no clue what's going on in Ukraine. Pro-tip: if you want to actually matter in the World, it's best not pulling a Don Quixote. If you don't, keep on going for those nonexistent fifth columns! Some people think that the best life is being homeless, who am I to judge? If that's what they want, I'd give it to them, if I could.

Its a free country. I wish you the best of luck if thats why you choose.

It quite clearly exists. The Russians like the Germans, used the myth of an oppressed minority to go rescue their kin. The Turks are doing the same in Northern Syria. The best solution to stop this Russian aggression is to remove their pretext entirely. The Allied Commission post-WW2 thought so and I agree with their conclusions. Do you deny this has been the pretext numerous Russian interventions?

[Shofercia]

My goodness - you've just argued that Mugabe = MLK Jr! I mean they both said the exact same thing about protecting black people who were oppressed, so clearly - they're one and the same! That's the logic you're using, isn't it? Hitler also claimed that a country should have a strong armed forces, wanted an alliance that spent much more than 2% of its GDP on the armed forces, hmm... who else does that?

Just giving you a taste of what your argument sounds like... total bullshit. Russia has a law where ethnic Russians living in former Soviet States can move into Russia through a simplified visa process - did Hitler have said law? Putin pointed out, correctly, that when the USSR fell apart, the ethnic Russians living abroad had to contend not just with a new government, but also became a part, against their Will expressed in a Referendum, of a brand new country. And said countries sometimes proceeded to loot the pensions, property, and a couple of other stuff from ethnic Russians, akin to what was done to the Serbs in Kosovo.

For instance, let's take a look how ethnic Russians fared in the Baltic States:
1979 - 1,533,735
1989 - 1,724,804
2000 - 1,274,210
2010 - 998,676

That's a decrease of ethnic Russians by 42%. Such a decrease was not seen in Stalin's reign, not even during Holodomor. But hey, they're not oppressed, it's just that 42% decided to vacation elsewhere... permanently.

How about the Caucasus:
1979 - 917,199
1989 - 785,031
2001 - 249,854
2011 - 184,427

Clearly no oppression here, moving on... (that was sarcasm)

Central Asia:
1979 - 9,312,762
1989 - 9,515,103
1999 - 6,540,494
2010 - 5,309,097

A 42% decrease. It's almost as if it's a trend!

Eastern Europe:
1979 - 12,111,449
1989 - 13,259,750
2001 - 10,118,737
2010 - 7,399,629

A 43% decrease. Granted, Ukraine's figures are estimates, since the country didn't give a shit about a census after 2001, but said estimates are extremely generous. And since that's 2010, that includes Crimea. Why have facts when you can have fiction? Seems to be the Ukrainian motto. So yes, there is oppression of ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet States. Quite a bit of it.

Speaking of Crimea - how did it fair?
1979 - 1,460,980
1989 - 1,629,542
2001 - 1,450,394
2014 - 1,492,078

Oh hey, that's a decrease of just 8%. How about Russia?

1979 - 113,521,881
1989 - 119,865,469
2002 - 115,889,107
2010 - 111,016,896

That's a decrease of about 7%. Such decreases happen when there's a radical change in Government. But there's quite a bit of difference between 7%/8% and 42%/43%.

Speaking of why we consider most of the Western Funded Human Rights Organizations a joke - where were they when the ethnic Russians in Chechnya truly needed them? Nowhere to be fucking found. When ethnic Russian women were being raped by IIPB, when men were executed for their speech and faith, when slavery of ethnic Russians was rampant, the Human Rights Organizations were... not doing their job. It's only after the passage of the anti-Gay law that they "discovered" that Gays were being oppressed in Chechnya. It's a bit hard to work with someone who's using Human Rights as a mere political pressure lever, so they can, kindly, fuck off.

Ethnic Russians in Chechnya:
1979 - 307,079
1989 - 269,130
2002 - 40,645
2010 - 24,382

Look at that drop between 1989 and 2002. Here's a snippet from a report by a SpetzNaz officer, showing an instance of actual slavery:



Rough summary:

"While my unit was exploring the basement, I heard screams, without fire. It was warmer in the basement due to artificially generated heat. Two of my men were holding a group of men who were scared shitless, and covering their faces with their hands. They were old and dirty, not the Chechens that we usually encountered. Upon a closer look, I realized that they were slaves, waiting the return of their masters [whom we've eliminated a few hours before]. They lived and worked as simple folk, prior to the war. They couldn't make it out on time..."

"... When the bombing started, they lost their relatives and homes, and as the war progressed, they were enslaved and forced to do hard labor. They were rarely fed. Some died due to malnutrition, some were shot [for things like asking for water]. Terrorists needed them as a free labor force. The Yeltsin Regime didn't give a flying fuck about them. I spoke to one of the men, he told me everything I needed to know, [and we ended up feeding them, giving them plenty of drinking water, and freeing them to flee back to Russia]."

The parts in [] are taken from other parts of the story. They got lucky. How many died? How many perished from hunger, or treatable deceases?

Seems like you're well versed in the subject. Kudos on the firsthand accounts.

I am not denying the oppression of ethnic Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union. Nor do I deny the facts you presented. What I am saying is that Putin's moves in Ukraine are awfully resemblant of land grabs, particularly the Crimea.

You point out that I am comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes. You're probably right. The situations are very different. I merely am saying that the similarities between the cases are rather noticeable.

You point out how ethnic Russians had no choice in their residence post-Soviet Union. So too did many ethnic Germans who lived in what became Poland or Czechoslovakia also had the same issue. Whether or not the mass persecution of these people in those nations was true or Nazi propaganda, it is undeniable that the Nazis used this as a pretext to invade and occupy their neighbors. Again, I am not saying that Russia is doing this. I'm simply explaining why I'm more skeptical of Putin's peacekeepers in the Crimea.

Is Putin right about the persecution? Probably. And he could genuinely mean that the troops in the Crimea are there to provide protection. They probably are indeed doing that. But they have also relieved their neighbor of a strategic area with vital military significance, and I'm not sold that that's just a coincidence.

If I'm cherry picking I'm sorry. I'm not trying to debate you. I'm just explaining my reasoning. It could very well be I'm wrong. But I just wanted to explain why I drew the parallel I did, even if it is one that is not very solid.

I know you, and you're right, it's not a coincidence. People ask "why South Ossetia and Abkhazia get different treatment than Prednistrovie" or "why are Donetsk and Lugansk treated differently than Crimea" or "why is South Sudan treated differently than Somaliland?" And those are legitimate questions. My guess is that Putin seized Crimea for numerous reasons. However, and this is where the major difference is, he didn't seize it to expand Russia's landmass or to create Lebensraum. Russia's a huge and amazing country, and more land is just not something that Russia needs, so that's why it's a bit frustrating for me to rebut the "hurr durr it's a land garb" for the umpteenth time.

Keep in mind that Putin is a Populist. So let's say that he seized Crimea for two reasons, (it was a lot more than two, but just for the sake of the argument let's say it's two,) and those two were to provide support and Social Rights for the Crimeans and to gain access to Crimea's natural resources and strategic location. As a Populist - you have those two reasons - do you publicize both? Do you publicize one more than the other? If you look at it from that perspective, his actions certainly make sense. Furthermore, Crimea's economy is performing ahead of schedule, and that means that Crimeans are going to need those resources to thrive.

[Shofercia]

Oh I know, my attorney will make sure of that. But it helps having a Russian Visa, just in case Germany counter-sanctions the US. Besides, I've benefited the US economy quite a bit, so perhaps it's time I benefit Russia's economy... you certainly make a strong argument for doing the latter.

Oh, and speaking of stupidity, it's rather idiotic to devote limited resources to fight a fifth column where none exists. There are two kinds of people: those who figured out that Ukraine's troubles come from Oligarchs, be they pro or anti Russian or pro or anti American, and the type that still has no clue what's going on in Ukraine. Pro-tip: if you want to actually matter in the World, it's best not pulling a Don Quixote. If you don't, keep on going for those nonexistent fifth columns! Some people think that the best life is being homeless, who am I to judge? If that's what they want, I'd give it to them, if I could.

Its a free country. I wish you the best of luck if thats why you choose.

It quite clearly exists. The Russians like the Germans, used the myth of an oppressed minority to go rescue their kin. The Turks are doing the same in Northern Syria. The best solution to stop this Russian aggression is to remove their pretext entirely. The Allied Commission post-WW2 thought so and I agree with their conclusions. Do you deny this has been the pretext numerous Russian interventions?

Name two. The reason for Intervention in the Ossetian War was the shelling of the Russian Peacekeeping Base. The reason for the Syrian Intervention had nothing to do with ethnic Russians. So go ahead - name two. And no, Ukraine and Ukraine isn't two. It's one.

And since you're wishing me the "best of luck" perhaps I should hire security.

[The East Marches II]

Its a free country. I wish you the best of luck if thats why you choose.

It quite clearly exists. The Russians like the Germans, used the myth of an oppressed minority to go rescue their kin. The Turks are doing the same in Northern Syria. The best solution to stop this Russian aggression is to remove their pretext entirely. The Allied Commission post-WW2 thought so and I agree with their conclusions. Do you deny this has been the pretext numerous Russian interventions?

Name two. The reason for Intervention in the Ossetian War was the shelling of the Russian Peacekeeping Base. The reason for the Syrian Intervention had nothing to do with ethnic Russians. So go ahead - name two. And no, Ukraine and Ukraine isn't two. It's one.

Ukraine and Georgia :^)

Just like that Polish attack on the radio station, a staged event! Putin does pull from a good playbook. Syria didn't, thats just interest. Instead, the cloak for that was ISIS when the war was being fought against anybody but them. The ethnic minority being oppressed is just a pretext for Russian actions on the global stage driven by other things. Remove his pretext and you remove the cloak. Thats why they should go home and as your numbers show, thankfully they are.

[Empire of Cats]

Seems like you're well versed in the subject. Kudos on the firsthand accounts.

I am not denying the oppression of ethnic Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union. Nor do I deny the facts you presented. What I am saying is that Putin's moves in Ukraine are awfully resemblant of land grabs, particularly the Crimea.

You point out that I am comparing apples to oranges, as the saying goes. You're probably right. The situations are very different. I merely am saying that the similarities between the cases are rather noticeable.

You point out how ethnic Russians had no choice in their residence post-Soviet Union. So too did many ethnic Germans who lived in what became Poland or Czechoslovakia also had the same issue. Whether or not the mass persecution of these people in those nations was true or Nazi propaganda, it is undeniable that the Nazis used this as a pretext to invade and occupy their neighbors. Again, I am not saying that Russia is doing this. I'm simply explaining why I'm more skeptical of Putin's peacekeepers in the Crimea.

Is Putin right about the persecution? Probably. And he could genuinely mean that the troops in the Crimea are there to provide protection. They probably are indeed doing that. But they have also relieved their neighbor of a strategic area with vital military significance, and I'm not sold that that's just a coincidence.

If I'm cherry picking I'm sorry. I'm not trying to debate you. I'm just explaining my reasoning. It could very well be I'm wrong. But I just wanted to explain why I drew the parallel I did, even if it is one that is not very solid.

I know you, and you're right, it's not a coincidence. People ask "why South Ossetia and Abkhazia get different treatment than Prednistrovie" or "why are Donetsk and Lugansk treated differently than Crimea" or "why is South Sudan treated differently than Somaliland?" And those are legitimate questions. My guess is that Putin seized Crimea for numerous reasons. However, and this is where the major difference is, he didn't seize it to expand Russia's landmass or to create Lebensraum. Russia's a huge and amazing country, and more land is just not something that Russia needs, so that's why it's a bit frustrating for me to rebut the "hurr durr it's a land garb" for the umpteenth time.

Keep in mind that Putin is a Populist. So let's say that he seized Crimea for two reasons, (it was a lot more than two, but just for the sake of the argument let's say it's two,) and those two were to provide support and Social Rights for the Crimeans and to gain access to Crimea's natural resources and strategic location. As a Populist - you have those two reasons - do you publicize both? Do you publicize one more than the other? If you look at it from that perspective, his actions certainly make sense. Furthermore, Crimea's economy is performing ahead of schedule, and that means that Crimeans are going to need those resources to thrive.

I agree with that. Thanks for the facts. They were pretty interesting.

[Shofercia]

Name two. The reason for Intervention in the Ossetian War was the shelling of the Russian Peacekeeping Base. The reason for the Syrian Intervention had nothing to do with ethnic Russians. So go ahead - name two. And no, Ukraine and Ukraine isn't two. It's one.

Ukraine and Georgia :^)

Just like that Polish attack on the radio station, a staged event! Putin does pull from a good playbook. Syria didn't, thats just interest. The ethnic minority being oppressed is just a pretext for Russian actions on the global stage driven by other things. Remove his pretext and you remove the cloak. Thats why they should go home and as your numbers show, thankfully they are.

Georgia wasn't about ethnic Russians. And in Georgia, the Russians did go home. Prior to the intervention. The Russians had less than 70,000 in Georgia, less than 1.5 percent of the population and less than 2,200 in South Ossetia, amounting to less than 2.2% of the population. I just told you that it wasn't about ethnic Russians. You refused to listen. Now you got bitch slapped by the facts.

Actually, Georgia completely discredits your theory. Your claim was that if significant numbers of the Russians are gone, Russia won't fight said country. A significant number of Russians were no longer in Georgia. Good job on discrediting your own asinine theory; IMHO that's the most useful thing you did in the thread.