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Trump MAGAthread VII

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The Archregimancy
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Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:19 am

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:Mrs Archregimancy, who is Russian, has also just pointed out to me the similarities between caudillismo - as defined above - and Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Whether this is coincidence or not, I leave for others to judge.


Hrm. Putin and caudillos have very little in common for most of its period if you are comparing them to Trump, personally speaking as a Latin American who has studied some Mexican and Salvadoran history. There's far more intersects between Trump and caudillos than with caudillos and Putin, with one notable exception which is Porfirio Diaz.

I think the closest famous caudillos you could attribute Trump with would be Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana in degrees of competency.

Caudillismo has a lot of defining features of the "strongman" political archetype, but in practice, Latin American caudillismo has presidents bending the rules or outright choosing their political successors after they were gone from what the people considered "the presidency". The power behind these caudillos never really tended to fade and they were the voice and policy of the party, with new presidents following the footsteps and agenda of these caudillos when they were powerful, and when they were not the caudillo was a bombastic leader full of themselves, which is why Santa Anna and other caudillos are a really close example to Trump than they are to Putin, which, again, as I said a notable exception is Porfirio Diaz of Mexico, who was ruthlessly efficient and powerful.


Fair points all. While there's inevitably overlap between caudillos and strongmen outside the Americas, there are clear characteristics within caudillismo that are unique to the Americas.

Leaving aside historical figures, on the basis of being forced to watch el comandante closely when I was working in Venezuela, I don't think a comparison between Trump and Chavez is wholly unreasonable. No doubt there are those who would object that comparisons between an allegedly wealthy New York capitalist and a Venezuelan socialist are invidious, but the whole point of caudillismo is that core behaviours and attitudes to power are more characteristic of the type than ideology. Historically caudillos have encompassed everything from conservative arch-traditionalists to populist socialists (which you well know; you're not really the target of that comment). But the appeal to a disaffected working class that feels it's been left behind by modern economic forces, the use/manipulation of modern media, the reliance on a particular style of bombastic charisma, the claims that the voting process is rigged and/or corrupt, the opposition to traditional governing elites, and the adoration of all things military (at least Chavez had an excuse for that one) are all shared characteristics; acknowledging Trump has some distance to go before he reaches late-Chavez levels of disdain for existing constitutional norms and opposition to free media (Trump has, so far, also spared us the hour-long extemporisations on national television). Again, many of these are shared with other strongmen in other parts of the world, but there's a particular feel to caudillismo that makes it a specifically American phenomenon.

On a separate though related point of yours, it's also worth noting that the tradition of hand-picking a successor goes back to the earliest period of Latin American independence; Bolivar even wrote the principle into his 'ideal' Bolivarian constitution for Bolivia - though his reasons for doing so were no doubt very different than Chavez's reasons for picking Maduro. Either way, the concept of a president for life appointing his handpicked successor has very deep roots within Latin American political theory as well as in the practice of caudillismo.

It may well be that some of these comparisons are overblown, but I also think it would be dangerous to ignore them completely. Perhaps our US-based friends should only start really worrying when Trump calls a constituent assembly to rewrite the constitution with the acquiescence of the Republican Party.

But while US constitutional practice and forms have been impressively robust over the last 200 years, there's absolutely no reason to assume that they're permanent, either. The United States is a young country, and while the underlying assumptions behind its governmental norms went through through a far worse crisis than the Trump administration in the 1860s, there's no reason to assume those norms are immune to collapse. Increased ossification in the US political process, increased hyperpartisanship, and a caudillo-like US president who not only fails to respect constitutional norms but actively accuses those norms of being rigged and corrupt, are a dangerous combination.

Nothing is permanent, historically speaking. The Achaemenid Empire survived 220 years as the superpower of its time before collapsing like a house of cards; Manzikert happened less than 50 years after the death of Basil II; the Mughal Empire's disintegration after the death of Aurangzeb was extraordinarily rapid; the British Empire was a major world power as recently as 1947. Americans can rightly take pride in their country's constitutional achievements, but they should be very careful about assuming that those achievements are permanent, or that the United States is somehow unique in its ability to resist the historical inevitability of the eventual overturning of its established order; and - like the collapse of the Soviet Union - there should be no assumption that anyone will see it coming before it happens.

I stress that I'm absolutely not predicting a collapse of the US constitutional order under Trump; American institutions have proven to be robust in the past. But I am arguing that no one should be complacent about assuming that the constitutional order can survive, and necessarily will survive, simply because it's survived past crises.

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The Flutterlands
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Postby The Flutterlands » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:08 am

Gim wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:Precisely, if trump gets removed from office in future it deters similar attempts which is the greatest danger from this whole debacle - policies can be reversed, laws can be repealed, treaties can be renegotiated but long term institutions are what matter. A successful (defined as full term or non-landslide 2020 removal) trump presidency demonstrates that institutions of American politics allow and encourage a populist regime built on childish tantrums, schoolyard insults and zero substantive policies; indeed having no policies is an advantage. Why'd other candidates, hell even whole parties not try a successful strategy going forward?

Pence presidency would be one of bad policy, trump presidency will be one of rotting institution.


Not to mention the Russian intervention. I think that has influenced the 2016 election as well.

I don't think how Trump completing his turn would allow others like him to try to take the mantal. Trump is extremely unpopular and his win was more of a fluke in arcane electoral rules than anything. Not to mention his incompetence has achieved nothing. You seem to forget that Trump is a symptom, not the illness at hand. Getting rid of Trump won't solve anything that's going on in our country without a major overhaul of American politics. The kind of overhaul someone like Bernie Sanders could have brought.

Also, what does alleged Russian intervention got to do with removing Trump outside of possible murky undefinable "collusion"?
Last edited by The Flutterlands on Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Cedoria
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:06 am

Lexicor wrote:
Something fundamental changed between 2012 and 2016. The economy got better, not worse, so some fundamental socio-cultural shift occurred, and the fact that Obama, who was a much more charismatic and effective campaigner than Clinton was not running again probably didn't help matters.
.

The economic recovery was not distributed evenly, you bourgeois, urban shill. The rust belt and most of rural America is still reeling from the effects of the slow decline in the viability of coal, a burgeoning opiate crisis and a general lack of employment opportunity. America is not just New York, Chicago, LA, San Fran, Seattle, Boston and Washington, and the Democrat's under Obama's tenure consistently focused on wedge issues and identity politics rather than address the legitimate economic concerns of rural America. They flew over the flyovers and paid the price in 2016.

Yep, I'm well aware the recovery was not even. No need for the personal insults thanks, I haven't insulted you and I'm not going too. Assuming I live in an urban area when I do not also gives you no credit, although I give you points for creativity of personal insults if nothing else.

You are correct that too much time was spent on wedge issues, that did not mean that the situation as a whole did not immeasurably improve from the period between 2007-2016 under the Obama Presidency for precisely the people you describe. Was it too the degree it could have been? No, but it sure was a hell of a lot better than mass unemployment and complete financial ruin for tens of millions of people. Which was the alternative that would have occurred if the GOP had their grubby mitts on the till at the time.
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Seangoli
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Seangoli » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:08 am

Gim wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:It absolutely will be. Pence is a danger to our current successes, but Trump is a danger to our capabilities.


Why are we worrying about Pence? Overseas here, so I may be missing something. is he going to succeed Trump, once the latter gets impeached?


The Presidential line of succession is:

1. Vice President (Mike Pence)
2. Speaker of the House (Paul Ryan)
3. Presidential Pro Tempore of the Senate (Orrin Hatch)
4. Secretary of State (Rex Tillerson)
5. Secretary of the Treasury (Steven Mnuchin)
6. Secretary of Defense (Mattis)

It keeps going for another 11 slots, however it is incredibly unlikely to ever even get beyond a Vice President, let alone down past the Secretary of State. Anyway, we would have to get to Orrin Hatch before we get to someone who is half decent. I said it elsewhere, but while he's conservative and has his personal views towards things, he doesn't let his personal views color his politics too much. He's not personally a fan of Gay people, for instance, however he has supported civil unions with the same rights for both hetero and homosexual people, and has broadly supported expanding anti-discrimination laws against LGBTQ people. He's anti illegal-immigration, but also proposed the DREAM act, which allows a path to citizenship for undocumented students. He's a conservative Christian, but he came out in defense of the Mosque being built in Manhattan near Ground Zero of the World Trade Center attack.

While he has some politics I don't agree with, he's also pretty damn even handed these days and is capable of not letting personal beliefs create policy.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:11 am

I've always thought it's a bit odd that the Treasury comes before SecDef in the chain of succession.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:13 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've always thought it's a bit odd that the Treasury comes before SecDef in the chain of succession.


When you get down to the Secretaries, it's in the order which they were created.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:16 am

Valrifell wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've always thought it's a bit odd that the Treasury comes before SecDef in the chain of succession.


When you get down to the Secretaries, it's in the order which they were created.

Which is why Homeland Security is last.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:16 am

Ifreann wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
When you get down to the Secretaries, it's in the order which they were created.

Which is why Homeland Security is last.


Yet another reason Homeland Security should be done away with >_>
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Calladan
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Postby Calladan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:17 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've always thought it's a bit odd that the Treasury comes before SecDef in the chain of succession.


The economy is more important than blowing shit up?
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Seangoli
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Seangoli » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:18 am

The Flutterlands wrote:
Gim wrote:
Not to mention the Russian intervention. I think that has influenced the 2016 election as well.

I don't think how Trump completing his turn would allow others like him to try to take the mantal. Trump is extremely unpopular and his win was more of a fluke in arcane electoral rules than anything. Not to mention his incompetence has achieved nothing. You seem to forget that Trump is a symptom, not the illness at hand. Getting rid of Trump won't solve anything that's going on in our country without a major overhaul of American politics. The kind of overhaul someone like Bernie Sanders could have brought.


Daily reminder that not even Rasmussen can salvage Trump's approval, with him now have 39% approval according to them. He is now entering a political danger zone. If he hits about 35%, I feel impeachment may be a serious thought even among some Republicans. Below 30%, and it's all but inevitable methinks. Impeachment is in no small part a political process, and the Republicans may feel a need to save face at that point.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... track_aug1

Also, what does alleged Russian intervention got to do with removing Trump outside of possible murky undefinable "collusion"?


It's less the act of collusion itself, and more the implied conflicts of interest that arise from it. If Russia was helping Trump, then it's safe to assume to assume that Trump will help Russia and formulate policy and decisions to help Russia, even if it is at the detriment of the US. Just in May, the Justice Department made a very bizarre decision to settle a case with Prevezon involving money laundering when most thought the JD's case was pretty damn rock-solid. A case being defended, interestingly enough, by the same Russian lawyer that Trump Jr. met with last year.

Equally, Trump has a lot of business holding in Russia, and personally stands to make or lose a lot of money based on the relationship between the US and Russia. And Russia vice-versa. This is particularly troubling considering that Trump has thus far refused to divest himself of his investments, and still knows full well where his investments are.

The act of collusion itself is not the problem - it the implied relationship that is, and what that relationship entails. And if it is found out that Trump is either creating policy based around preferential treatment for Russia, or even worse is turning a blind eye to money laundering performed by Russian corporations in the US, you enter "impeachment" territory.
Last edited by Seangoli on Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:19 am

Calladan wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I've always thought it's a bit odd that the Treasury comes before SecDef in the chain of succession.


The economy is more important than blowing shit up?


Now that's just un-American.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:21 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Which is why Homeland Security is last.


Yet another reason Homeland Security should be done away with >_>

How is that a reason to do away with Homeland Security?
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:22 am

Ifreann wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Yet another reason Homeland Security should be done away with >_>

How is that a reason to do away with Homeland Security?


I dunno, cuz the guy in charge of DHS will never do anything relevant?

I just really want to get rid of DHS, don't judge.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:24 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ifreann wrote:How is that a reason to do away with Homeland Security?


I dunno, cuz the guy in charge of DHS will never do anything relevant?

Aside from all that security of the homeland stuff? Also, designated survivor.

I just really want to get rid of DHS, don't judge.

It's too late, I'm already judging you.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:25 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Which is why Homeland Security is last.


Yet another reason Homeland Security should be done away with >_>

Just end the jobs program that is the TSA.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:28 am

Ifreann wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I dunno, cuz the guy in charge of DHS will never do anything relevant?

Aside from all that security of the homeland stuff? Also, designated survivor.


>implying DHS can actually protect anything other than it's budget

Ifreann wrote:It's too late, I'm already judging you.


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Ism
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Postby Ism » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:48 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ifreann wrote:How is that a reason to do away with Homeland Security?


I dunno, cuz the guy in charge of DHS will never do anything relevant?

I just really want to get rid of DHS, don't judge.


Clearly WRA is secretly one of those illegal Mexican Muslim terrorist that Trump keeps warning us about.

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Philjia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:49 am

Ifreann wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I dunno, cuz the guy in charge of DHS will never do anything relevant?

Aside from all that security of the homeland stuff? Also, designated survivor.

What do they actually do that couldn't just be put under the FBI's remit?

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Gim
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gim » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:49 am

The Flutterlands wrote:
Gim wrote:
Not to mention the Russian intervention. I think that has influenced the 2016 election as well.

I don't think how Trump completing his turn would allow others like him to try to take the mantal. Trump is extremely unpopular and his win was more of a fluke in arcane electoral rules than anything. Not to mention his incompetence has achieved nothing. You seem to forget that Trump is a symptom, not the illness at hand. Getting rid of Trump won't solve anything that's going on in our country without a major overhaul of American politics. The kind of overhaul someone like Bernie Sanders could have brought.

Also, what does alleged Russian intervention got to do with removing Trump outside of possible murky undefinable "collusion"?


The election voting fraud?
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Great Nepal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Great Nepal » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:50 am

The Flutterlands wrote:I don't think how Trump completing his turn would allow others like him to try to take the mantal. Trump is extremely unpopular and his win was more of a fluke in arcane electoral rules than anything. Not to mention his incompetence has achieved nothing. You seem to forget that Trump is a symptom, not the illness at hand. Getting rid of Trump won't solve anything that's going on in our country without a major overhaul of American politics. The kind of overhaul someone like Bernie Sanders could have brought.

Also, what does Russian intervention got to do with removing Trump outside of possible murky "collusion"?

His unpopularity is irrelevant, he still managed to win the elections based on existing rules based on schoolyard insults and lack of any substantive policies and has continued that pattern when in office. If he gets full term it shows the legislative branch isn't able or willing to contain a populist demagogue, if he isn't defeated in landslide in 2020 it shows the population, as far as they matter is equally okay with such leadership. Polling numbers are largely irrelevant - what matters is how much support they get in election day.

Why should anyone deviate from a winning strategy, especially when coming up with actual policies is hard and inherently fractures your base - just throw insults, have ongoing public tantrums, while making vague promises to make everything better and you'll be fine. It's not about carrying 'trumps mantle', it's about effect on nature of political discourse - and it's something both sides would adopt over medium-long term if it proves to be winning strategy.

Edit: Also Bernie would've done nothing of the sort; just as with obama he'd be haggling with GOP in the congress for most major initiatives and he'd have about as much success wrt those initiatives.

Gim wrote:Not to mention the Russian intervention. I think that has influenced the 2016 election as well.

If that is proven and nothing substantive is done, then that further damages institutions - after all if there's no risk and massive rewards why not collude.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Gim
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Postby Gim » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:52 am

Great Nepal wrote:If that is proven and nothing substantive is done, then that further damages institutions - after all if there's no risk and massive rewards why not collude.


Too much damage from cyberattacks. China launched those in 2013, and Russians last year.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:57 am

Philjia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Aside from all that security of the homeland stuff? Also, designated survivor.

What do they actually do that couldn't just be put under the FBI's remit?

Everything? Nothing? I don't know.
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Alvecia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:59 am

Ifreann wrote:
Philjia wrote:What do they actually do that couldn't just be put under the FBI's remit?

Everything? Nothing? I don't know.

From what I understand from a quick googling, HMS deals with all in house security stuff, up to and including natural disasters.
The FBI is strictly law enforcement.

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The Flutterlands
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Flutterlands » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:44 am

Great Nepal wrote:
The Flutterlands wrote:I don't think how Trump completing his turn would allow others like him to try to take the mantal. Trump is extremely unpopular and his win was more of a fluke in arcane electoral rules than anything. Not to mention his incompetence has achieved nothing. You seem to forget that Trump is a symptom, not the illness at hand. Getting rid of Trump won't solve anything that's going on in our country without a major overhaul of American politics. The kind of overhaul someone like Bernie Sanders could have brought.

Also, what does Russian intervention got to do with removing Trump outside of possible murky "collusion"?

His unpopularity is irrelevant, he still managed to win the elections based on existing rules based on schoolyard insults and lack of any substantive policies and has continued that pattern when in office. If he gets full term it shows the legislative branch isn't able or willing to contain a populist demagogue, if he isn't defeated in landslide in 2020 it shows the population, as far as they matter is equally okay with such leadership. Polling numbers are largely irrelevant - what matters is how much support they get in election day.

Why should anyone deviate from a winning strategy, especially when coming up with actual policies is hard and inherently fractures your base - just throw insults, have ongoing public tantrums, while making vague promises to make everything better and you'll be fine. It's not about carrying 'trumps mantle', it's about effect on nature of political discourse - and it's something both sides would adopt over medium-long term if it proves to be winning strategy.

Edit: Also Bernie would've done nothing of the sort; just as with obama he'd be haggling with GOP in the congress for most major initiatives and he'd have about as much success wrt those initiatives.

Gim wrote:Not to mention the Russian intervention. I think that has influenced the 2016 election as well.

If that is proven and nothing substantive is done, then that further damages institutions - after all if there's no risk and massive rewards why not collude.

Well, you cant just impeach a President for petty schoolyard insults and lack of any substantive policies. Those are not high crimes and misdemeanors.

And actual full on collusion, with the exception of Junior's opposition research, has yet to made fully shown. Like I've said, the accusations of blackmail, treachery, and being a puppet are completely unfounded. Not to mention steps to be punishing Russia are being taken. Sanctions seem to be the only peaceful way of doing so without pushing us further into another Cold War or worse a World War.

Really, I find this demonization of Russia, painting it as this boogeyman out, this so-called "Hostile Forigen power", is extremely dangerous considering that it could potentially create war hysteria. Like remember when people made fun of Mitt Romney for calling Russia our "Number One Geopolitical Enemy"? What happened to that?
Last edited by The Flutterlands on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:45 am

The Flutterlands wrote:
Great Nepal wrote:His unpopularity is irrelevant, he still managed to win the elections based on existing rules based on schoolyard insults and lack of any substantive policies and has continued that pattern when in office. If he gets full term it shows the legislative branch isn't able or willing to contain a populist demagogue, if he isn't defeated in landslide in 2020 it shows the population, as far as they matter is equally okay with such leadership. Polling numbers are largely irrelevant - what matters is how much support they get in election day.

Why should anyone deviate from a winning strategy, especially when coming up with actual policies is hard and inherently fractures your base - just throw insults, have ongoing public tantrums, while making vague promises to make everything better and you'll be fine. It's not about carrying 'trumps mantle', it's about effect on nature of political discourse - and it's something both sides would adopt over medium-long term if it proves to be winning strategy.

Edit: Also Bernie would've done nothing of the sort; just as with obama he'd be haggling with GOP in the congress for most major initiatives and he'd have about as much success wrt those initiatives.


If that is proven and nothing substantive is done, then that further damages institutions - after all if there's no risk and massive rewards why not collude.

Well, you cant just impeach a President for petty schoolyard insults and lack of any substantive policies. Those are not high crimes and misdemeanors.

And actual full on collusion, with the exception of Junior's opposition research, has yet to made fully shown. Not to mention steps to be punishing Russia are being taken. Sanctions seem to be the only peaceful way of doing so without pushing us further into another Cold War or worse a World War.

Really, I find this demonization of Russia, painting it as this boogeyman out, this so-called "Hostile Forigen power", is extremely dangerous. Like remember when people made fun of Mitt Romney for calling Russian our "Number One Geopolitical Enemy"? What happened to that?


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