Was the pivot the big mistake of the GOP in 2008 and 2012?

[Tower Towns]

In spite of the predictions of the liberal media, Donald J Trump won in 2016. Many people thought that he would lose because he did not "pivot to the center" after the primaries.

In spite of not following this hallowed establishment tradition, he won. However, in 2008 and 2012, both McCain and Romney pivoted and lost.

What if I told you that the pivot was terrible advice, and the only evidence for it was that "the experts said so"?

Now that we had someone who ignored the expert advice and won, I think that the pivot was always a mistake, and the GOP would have won in both 2008 and 2012 if they had stayed true to their pro-American ideas.

What do you think?

[Saiwania]

The notion of a possible McCain victory is completely absurd, there was just no way any Republican would've won in 2008 when George W. Bush was as unpopular as he was and the economy had its worst recession since the Great Depression. So far as 2012 goes, it all came down to Obama running a superior campaign than Romney did.

2016 was very winnable for Democrats, it is primarily Hillary Clinton's fault that she didn't campaign effectively or adopt a populist message when she could've. Only around 25% of her campaign ads were about the issues, which is where she needed to hit Donald Trump on. She had no clear direction or message asides from being a woman and continuing Obama's policies. People don't want more of the status quo, they want domestic issues being addressed for once.

[Tower Towns]

The notion of a possible McCain victory is completely absurd, there was just no way any Republican would've won in 2008 when George W. Bush was as unpopular as he was and the economy had its worst recession since the Great Depression. So far as 2012 goes, it all came down to Obama running a superior campaign than Romney did.

2016 was very winnable for Democrats, it is primarily Hillary Clinton's fault that she didn't campaign effectively or adopt a populist message. Only around 25% of her campaign ads were about the issues, which is where she needed to hit Donald Trump on. She had no clear direction or message.

It's because of the pivot, both Bush and Romney were too liberal. I think Americans didn't trust welfare to fix the economy even back then.

[Keldros]

I will be forever grateful to former president Barack Obama for preventing both a McCain presidency and a Hillary presidency in 2008.

Campaigns, debates, and advertisements don't actually matter. Voters already make up their minds before any of that even begins. The only question that decides an election's outcome is, "Do I want more of the same or do I want change?" Voters didn't have a compelling reason to change in 2012. Republicans may have hated Obama but that wasn't motivation enough to turn out for Mitt Romney.

Donald Trump succeeded because he said out loud what many voters have been thinking for decades. He offered what no one else did, and combined it with a combative personality we haven't seen in any mainstream Republican since maybe Pat Buchanan in 1992. Hillary's campaign thought they could mobilize the old Obama coalition, but she didn't have Obama's charisma nor anything compelling to say to Rust Belt voters whom she took for granted. What really killed her was blacks didn't turn out for her in the same numbers as they did for Obama. Now Democrats are stuck trying to thread a needle: they can't win without the white working class, nor can they win without minorities voting monolithically.

[Vassenor]

And despite all that Trump still couldn't convince a plurality of Americans to vote for him.

[Tower Towns]

And despite all that Trump still couldn't convince a plurality of Americans to vote for him.

1 he doesn't need to, it's called the electoral college and its in the Constitution

2 that's just fake news caused by illegal voting

[Saiwania]

It's because of the pivot, both Bush and Romney were too liberal. I think Americans didn't trust welfare to fix the economy even back then.

It's completely the wrong interpretation. Republicans aren't going to win with a Ted Cruz or a Rick Santorum as a presidential candidate, they'd get blown out with a candidate that is too ideologically pure. Presidential candidates need to win in competitive swing states and in major urban centers asides from just rural or suburban areas.

Donald Trump didn't win any overwhelming mandate, he won because he at least adopted a populist message during a populist year, completely bucking the neoliberal platform that was Republican orthodoxy for a long time. Trump had a better ability to discern where the political winds are blowing than Clinton did, he adjusted his message whilst she didn't.

[Vassenor]

And despite all that Trump still couldn't convince a plurality of Americans to vote for him.

1 he doesn't need to, it's called the electoral college and its in the Constitution

2 that's just fake news caused by illegal voting

Oh hey, the illegal voting hoax. Did anyone actually provide evidence for it or is it all just Listen And Believe?

[Keldros]

And despite all that Trump still couldn't convince a plurality of Americans to vote for him.

I want to take this moment to thank Alexander Hamilton for inventing the Electoral College.

[Vassenor]

And despite all that Trump still couldn't convince a plurality of Americans to vote for him.

I want to take this moment to thank Alexander Hamilton for inventing the Electoral College.

Because it means the American people effectively have no say in their own government?

[The East Marches II]

I want to take this moment to thank Alexander Hamilton for inventing the Electoral College.

Because it means the American people effectively have no say in their own government?

American people have plenty of say, I just happen to have my vote matter a bit more :^)

[Keldros]

Because it means the American people effectively have no say in their own government?

Democrats just need to do a better job of explaining to voters why cishet white people are all stupid Nazis next time.

[Vassenor]

Because it means the American people effectively have no say in their own government?

Democrats just need to do a better job of explaining to voters why cishet white people are all stupid Nazis next time.

Things no-one actually said: That.

[Saiwania]

Donald Trump arguably won his party primary because he was the only candidate who said that he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare and wouldn't go for globalist trade deals such as NAFTA. Never mind the fact that the Trump administration is breaking promises left and right, and doing the opposite of campaign rhetoric, Trump still told what his base (many of which were seniors) what they wanted to hear, even if it drove establishment leaders and party donors crazy.

[Tower Towns]

It's because of the pivot, both Bush and Romney were too liberal. I think Americans didn't trust welfare to fix the economy even back then.

It's completely the wrong interpretation. Republicans aren't going to win with a Ted Cruz or a Rick Santorum as a presidential candidate, they'd get blown out with a candidate that is too ideologically pure. Presidential candidates need to win in competitive swing states and in major urban centers asides from just rural or suburban areas.

Donald Trump didn't win any overwhelming mandate, he won because he at least adopted a populist message during a populist year, completely bucking the neoliberal platform that was Republican orthodoxy for a long time. Trump had a better ability to discern where the political winds are blowing than Clinton did, he adjusted his message whilst she didn't.

I think Cruz cannot win because he's soft on illegals but Santorum can win as long as he doesn't pivot.

After all if liberalism was such a winning id3a then they would have won last night.

[Keldros]

Donald Trump arguably won his party primary because he was the only candidate who said that he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare and wouldn't go for globalist trade deals such as NAFTA. Never mind the fact that the Trump administration is breaking promises left and right, and doing the opposite of campaign rhetoric, Trump still told what his base (many of which were seniors) what they wanted to hear, even if it drove establishment leaders and party donors crazy.

Donald Trump single handedly shifted the Overton Window toward the right to a degree that I didn't think was possible three years ago. Much of his appeal comes from his refusal to be the Washington Generals to the Media Industrial Complex's Harlem Globetrotters. Every week he said something where any other Republican would have backed down, apologized, and been raked over the coals anyway. Every week the media breathlessly reported, "Surely THIS is the end of Trump's campaign." He brazened his way through it every time and his supporters adored him for it. He's the first Republican to seriously fight back in my lifetime.

[Tower Towns]

1 he doesn't need to, it's called the electoral college and its in the Constitution

2 that's just fake news caused by illegal voting

Oh hey, the illegal voting hoax. Did anyone actually provide evidence for it or is it all just Listen And Believe?

Its good to believe the president, he won fair and square, you should really give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Vassenor]

Donald Trump arguably won his party primary because he was the only candidate who said that he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare and wouldn't go for globalist trade deals such as NAFTA. Never mind the fact that the Trump administration is breaking promises left and right, and doing the opposite of campaign rhetoric, Trump still told what his base (many of which were seniors) what they wanted to hear, even if it drove establishment leaders and party donors crazy.

Donald Trump single handedly shifted the Overton Window toward the right to a degree that I didn't think was possible three years ago. Much of his appeal comes from his refusal to be the Washington Generals to the Media Industrial Complex's Harlem Globetrotters. Every week he said something where any other Republican would have backed down, apologized, and been raked over the coals anyway. Every week the media breathlessly reported, "Surely THIS is the end of Trump's campaign." He brazened his way through it every time and his supporters adored him for it. He's the first Republican to seriously fight back in my lifetime.

While his supporter base got triggered left right and centre by any criticism of him.

[Keldros]

While his supporter base got triggered left right and centre by any criticism of him.

Progressives have been screaming that he's a fascist for two years. If he doesn't ceremonially burn the Constitution, outlaw elections, and d eclare himself the God-Emperor of Mankind by 2020, I'm going to be completely heartbroken.

[Saiwania]

After all if liberalism was such a winning id3a then they would have won last night.

If conservatism was so popular, the election in Georgia shouldn't have been as close as it was. Georgia overall, is still a solidly red state.

People aren't going to go for supply side economics when it has been tried and has always been a miserable failure in terms of economic performance. Expect Republicans to lose overwhelmingly if the Obamacare repeal causes 23 million+ to lose health coverage and gets premiums to skyrocket 1200%+ as projected. Tax cuts for the wealthy are overwhelmingly unpopular, it serves no useful purpose besides exacerbating income inequality and starving the government of revenue so as to render it unable to provide services like maintaining infrastructure (The US gets a D+ from the ASCE).

There are real and tangible problems with the long term appeal of certain portions of the Republican party's platform as it exists now.

[Vassenor]

While his supporter base got triggered left right and centre by any criticism of him.

Progressives have been screaming that he's a fascist for two years. If he doesn't ceremonially burn the Constitution, outlaw elections, and d eclare himself the God-Emperor of Mankind by 2020, I'm going to be completely heartbroken.

Things no-one has seriously suggested: That.

He does have a pretty public hate-on for the fourteenth amendment and bits of the first though.

[Union of Despotistan]

Ron Paul had a pretty strong run in 2012 before he was literally sidelined by the party. I also believe the pivot to center is bad for the GOP.

[Tower Towns]

After all if liberalism was such a winning id3a then they would have won last night.

If conservatism was so popular, the election in Georgia shouldn't have been as close as it was. Georgia overall, is still a solidly red state.

People aren't going to go for supply side economics when it has been tried and has always been a miserable failure in terms of economic performance. Expect Republicans to lose overwhelmingly if the Obamacare repeal causes 23 million+ to lose health coverage and gets premiums to skyrocket 1200%+ as projected. Tax cuts for the wealthy are overwhelmingly unpopular, it serves no useful purpose besides exacerbating income inequality and starving the government of revenue so as to render it unable to provide services like maintaining infrastructure (The US gets a D+ from the ASCE).

There are real and tangible problems with the long term appeal of certain portions of the Republican party's platform as it exists now.

But people also said that running Trump would cause defeat but it didn't. Even if it's close, a w8n is still a win. That's just how the founding fathers intended it, this is why l8berals cannot w8n with their illegal voting.

Even if what you say about the health care comes true somehow, it won't necessarily mean democratic victory, just more close races that GOP wins, and more lopsided Democrats performances in the out of touch coastal places where no common sense policy can ever win. The founding fathers were truly wise to ban California from deciding elections when they wrote the constitution.

I think Republicans will keep winning for decades as long as the avoid the pivot.

[Tinhampton]

The founding fathers were truly wise to ban California from deciding elections when they wrote the constitution.

Do I support the Electoral College? Yes, but California joined some 70 years after the Constitution. The Founding Fathers did not write the basis for all American law whilst prospectors were headed out west to find gold.

[Tower Towns]

The founding fathers were truly wise to ban California from deciding elections when they wrote the constitution.

Do I support the Electoral College? Yes, but California joined some 70 years after the Constitution. The Founding Fathers did not write the basis for all American law whilst prospectors were headed out west to find gold.

So what, they are still banned from deciding elections single handedly.