UN considering making "Cultural Appropriation" illegal

[Imperializt Russia]

I would too, but it wouldn't come under the purview of IP law.

Remember, they're not "making a law", they're simply including "cultural tradition" under whatever the UN considers a definition of Intellectual Property, therefore making them eligible for IP law protections.

And yes, this is a good criticism of IP law, it's not very good.
It's a stepping stone. Of course the real problem is capitalism. Can't profit off exploitation without capitalism!
But we're not shifting that one any time soon, so I'll settle for the imperfect system.

Still, it sounds like cash-for-genes at best, and 'us vs them' racism at worst. "They can't use our clothes, they're different. They're not us."

This is typical of the far-left culture politics; it's full of big words and idealism but when you get into the details it's actualy just a load of hypocracy and racism.

Why are you buying into the Hitlerite notion that culture is inherently tied to race?

[Ors Might]

Am I the only one who finds it fucking retarded that culture, something that by definition must change and evolve, can be considered intellectual property? Intellectual property of whom? I'm of French ancestry, I don't own the rights to a baguette.

Except we're talking about aspects of culture that do not change and evolve, the rigidly laid down traditions that may go back hundreds or thousands of years (aboriginal traditional culture of any nation), or may no longer be practised within that community (Norse/viking tradition).

The reason why there is now a motion to consider it IP, is because it's being taken, commodified, sold and muddied.

Of course the inherent problem is capitalism and IP laws leave a lot to be desired, but baby steps and/or make do with what you got.

That fails to answer the question of which individual gets the IP rights. Do all cultural groups now have to elect a representative? Can I finally achieve my life long dream of owning the rights to the representation of knights in all forms of media?

[The East Marches II]

That means it's about cultural appropriation.

"""Cultural appropriation""" and profiting off the exploitation of cultures are not the same thing.

In the case of headdresses for drunk chicks at festivals, I would argue that the act of producing, marketing and selling the item for profit is exploitation of culture, which would come under IP violation.
While technically the act of wearing it could come under a violation of that (since end-user infringement is still considered infringement), I argue that is merely """cultural appropriation""" and much lesser.

It's a shitty thing to do. You won't be hit with a Cease & Desist.

You unironically sound like a white nationalist. Consider your point of view.

[Imperializt Russia]

"""Cultural appropriation""" and profiting off the exploitation of cultures are not the same thing.

In the case of headdresses for drunk chicks at festivals, I would argue that the act of producing, marketing and selling the item for profit is exploitation of culture, which would come under IP violation.
While technically the act of wearing it could come under a violation of that (since end-user infringement is still considered infringement), I argue that is merely """cultural appropriation""" and much lesser.

It's a shitty thing to do. You won't be hit with a Cease & Desist.

You unironically sound like a white nationalist. Consider your point of view.

Oh, this'll be good.
Go on.

[The East Marches II]

You unironically sound like a white nationalist. Consider your point of view.

Oh, this'll be good.
Go on.

You are literally trying to make culture rigid and ownable. It's impressive. Have you joined national action yet?

[The East Marches II]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

[SD_Film Artists]

Still, it sounds like cash-for-genes at best, and 'us vs them' racism at worst. "They can't use our clothes, they're different. They're not us."

This is typical of the far-left culture politics; it's full of big words and idealism but when you get into the details it's actualy just a load of hypocracy and racism.

Why are you buying into the Hitlerite notion that culture is inherently tied to race?

On the contrary, I'm saying that culture is NOT tied to race; which is why it's stupid to give any one race special IP powers.

[Liriena]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

Yeaaaaaaaaah. I mean, I'm all for restoring the Inca Empire and the Mapuche colonizing the Moon and stuff, but let's not be too quick to overidealize.

[The East Marches II]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

Yeaaaaaaaaah. I mean, I'm all for restoring the Inca Empire and the Mapuche colonizing the Moon and stuff, but let's not be too quick to overidealize.

It's the same sort of stuff that always happens. It's why I rarely mention my own background. The noble savage meme needs to die as does the idea some cultures are so fragile that it will be shattered or somebody wounded emotionally by its use in a fashion show. It's no more exploitation than Natives favoring pickup trucks for work.

[Kramania]

Yeaaaaaaaaah. I mean, I'm all for restoring the Inca Empire and the Mapuche colonizing the Moon and stuff, but let's not be too quick to overidealize.

It's the same sort of stuff that always happens. It's why I rarely mention my own background. The noble savage meme needs to die as does the idea some cultures are so fragile that it will be shattered or somebody wounded emotionally by its use in a fashion show. It's no more exploitation than Natives favoring pickup trucks for work.

If gets pushed all the fucking time in America. It's rather irritating. People want to pretend that every Native American was some peaceful Pocahontas type who was connected with nature and frolicked with deer.

[Liriena]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

Yeaaaaaaaaah. I mean, I'm all for restoring the Inca Empire and the Mapuche colonizing the Moon and stuff, but let's not be too quick to overidealize.

Although, I do agree with Imperializt Russia to some extent. While you might argue that, in a vacuum, policy that treats cultures like intellectual properties is hardly progressive and could lend itself to cultural isolationist perspectives (including white nationalism)... historical context matters and power disparities matter. In the particular case pictured and elaborated on by Imperializt Russia, I do think something should be done to deter that sort of appropriation, because it's clearly not something produced by an egalitarian cultural exchange.

[The East Marches II]

Yeaaaaaaaaah. I mean, I'm all for restoring the Inca Empire and the Mapuche colonizing the Moon and stuff, but let's not be too quick to overidealize.

Although, I do agree with Imperializt Russia to some extent. While you might argue that, in a vacuum, policy that treats cultures like intellectual properties is hardly progressive and could lend itself to cultural isolationist perspectives (including white nationalism)... historical context matters and power disparities matter. In the particular case pictured and elaborated on by Imperializt Russia, I do think something should be done to deter that sort of appropriation, because it's clearly not something produced by an egalitarian cultural exchange.

What disparity in power and historical? We are equal citizens in the States and get preferential treatment with university, job placement for government work and in self-government. If anything its beyond equality at this point and that's driven by a sense of guilt for things none of us were alive to control nor influence. I don't see the reasoning.

[Imperializt Russia]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

Personally, I'd struggle to think of anything more white nationalist than the term "myth of the noble savage", but hey ho, I'm not the one who thinks that a people has no right to what they've created.

I mean, similar protections essentially already exist: Parma Ham can only come from Parma. Champagne can only come from Champagne.
Mowbray pies can only come from Melton Mowbray and Stilton may only be produced in an area of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire (ironically it was first sold in Stilton, Cambridge, but not produced there, hence the disparity).

[The East Marches II]

Also you've a bad case of the myth of the noble savage.

Personally, I'd struggle to think of anything more white nationalist than the term "myth of the noble savage", but hey ho, I'm not the one who thinks that a people has no right to what they've created.

I mean, similar protections essentially already exist: Parma Ham can only come from Parma. Champagne can only come from Champagne.
Mowbray pies can only come from Melton Mowbray and Stilton may only be produced in an area of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire (ironically it was first sold in Stilton, Cambridge, but not produced there, hence the disparity).

If you will view my posting history, I've raged against that sort of thing too. I think it's garbage that somebody can own a label like that specific to a region.

[Liriena]

Although, I do agree with Imperializt Russia to some extent. While you might argue that, in a vacuum, policy that treats cultures like intellectual properties is hardly progressive and could lend itself to cultural isolationist perspectives (including white nationalism)... historical context matters and power disparities matter. In the particular case pictured and elaborated on by Imperializt Russia, I do think something should be done to deter that sort of appropriation, because it's clearly not something produced by an egalitarian cultural exchange.

What disparity in power and historical? We are equal citizens in the States and get preferential treatment with university, job placement for government work and in self-government. If anything its beyond equality at this point and that's driven by a sense of guilt for things none of us were alive to control nor influence. I don't see the reasoning.

I do get your point. But speaking in terms of socioeconomics, how much power does, say, the Cherokee Nation have to influence the way large economic groups, and specially the culture industry, use Cherokee customs and traditions, and to enjoy the benefits of that use?

[Imperializt Russia]

Personally, I'd struggle to think of anything more white nationalist than the term "myth of the noble savage", but hey ho, I'm not the one who thinks that a people has no right to what they've created.

I mean, similar protections essentially already exist: Parma Ham can only come from Parma. Champagne can only come from Champagne.
Mowbray pies can only come from Melton Mowbray and Stilton may only be produced in an area of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire (ironically it was first sold in Stilton, Cambridge, but not produced there, hence the disparity).

If you will view my posting history, I've raged against that sort of thing too. I think it's garbage that somebody can own a label like that specific to a region.

I'm not saying that you inherently support those or whatever I'm saying it's no great stretch.

The problem is that these products have specific prestige because of, in those specific cases, centuries-old traditions.
The issue is shitbag companies profiteering off making shitty copies. Essentially, misleading consumers. After all, in those cases, it's not even a ban - companies can make "parma" ham, and sell "champagne" or "stilton" cheese or pork pies.
They just can't give them names that could be used to mislead a consumer to purchase it over the premium, original, traditional type - and in the process, siphoning money away from the property holder.

Yeah, it's an imperfect system. But that's capitalism being capitalism for you.

[The East Marches II]

What disparity in power and historical? We are equal citizens in the States and get preferential treatment with university, job placement for government work and in self-government. If anything its beyond equality at this point and that's driven by a sense of guilt for things none of us were alive to control nor influence. I don't see the reasoning.

I do get your point. But speaking in terms of socioeconomics, how much power does, say, the Cherokee Nation have to influence the way large economic groups, and specially the culture industry, use Cherokee customs and traditions, and to enjoy the benefits of that use?

What does it matter? It's not their to own nor is it theirs alone. Blackfoot dispute with other tribes all the time over stolen ceremonial stuff, should each tribe all sue each other?

[The East Marches II]

If you will view my posting history, I've raged against that sort of thing too. I think it's garbage that somebody can own a label like that specific to a region.

I'm not saying that you inherently support those or whatever I'm saying it's no great stretch.

The problem is that these products have specific prestige because of, in those specific cases, centuries-old traditions.
The issue is shitbag companies profiteering off making shitty copies. Essentially, misleading consumers. After all, in those cases, it's not even a ban - companies can make "parma" ham, and sell "champagne" or "stilton" cheese or pork pies.
They just can't give them names that could be used to mislead a consumer to purchase it over the premium, original, traditional type - and in the process, siphoning money away from the property holder.

Yeah, it's an imperfect system. But that's capitalism being capitalism for you.

The issue is who cares? You can assign names like we do in the states based on composition of final product. If you want to engage in cultural isolationism ala white nationalism that's on you.

[Liriena]

I do get your point. But speaking in terms of socioeconomics, how much power does, say, the Cherokee Nation have to influence the way large economic groups, and specially the culture industry, use Cherokee customs and traditions, and to enjoy the benefits of that use?

What does it matter? It's not their to own nor is it theirs alone. Blackfoot dispute with other tribes all the time over stolen ceremonial stuff, should each tribe all sue each other?

Yeah, that's my main problem with actually making a policy out of this debate: most cultures owe an awful lot of their elements to centuries of cultural interactions (both peaceful and violent). Very few cultures are so isolated that I would dare say their customs and traditions are theirs and theirs alone beyond any doubt. I mean, I'm a gosh darn Argie. My life is a cacophony of a thousand traditions from a thousand cultures mixing and splitting and doing all manner of strange stuff (I suspect it won't be long before somebody here comes up with barbecued beef sushi or something like that). If we start policing which traditions belong exclusively to which culture, it's going to get messy.

[Sovaal]

It's not about cultural appropriation, it's about profiting off it by reproducing it without permission.

Which is why it's being rolled into existing IP law.

Reproducing it without permission is... cultural appropriation.

So China is going to experience an economic crash. Also, I doubt the Indians, Arabs, or Europeans asked for permission from the Chinese to use gunpowder.

[Kramania]

Reproducing it without permission is... cultural appropriation.

So China is going to experience an economic crash. Also, I doubt the Indians, Arabs, or Europeans asked for permission from the Chinese to use gunpowder.

Pretty much, yeah. Every culture has traditions, customs, etc that were appropriated from other cultures. Trying to legislate such things would be impossible.

[Kramania]

What does it matter? It's not their to own nor is it theirs alone. Blackfoot dispute with other tribes all the time over stolen ceremonial stuff, should each tribe all sue each other?

Yeah, that's my main problem with actually making a policy out of this debate: most cultures owe an awful lot of their elements to centuries of cultural interactions (both peaceful and violent). Very few cultures are so isolated that I would dare say their customs and traditions are theirs and theirs alone beyond any doubt. I mean, I'm a gosh darn Argie. My life is a cacophony of a thousand traditions from a thousand cultures mixing and splitting and doing all manner of strange stuff (I suspect it won't be long before somebody here comes up with barbecued beef sushi or something like that). If we start policing which traditions belong exclusively to which culture, it's going to get messy.

The easiest solution is just to not legislate it.

[Liriena]

Yeah, that's my main problem with actually making a policy out of this debate: most cultures owe an awful lot of their elements to centuries of cultural interactions (both peaceful and violent). Very few cultures are so isolated that I would dare say their customs and traditions are theirs and theirs alone beyond any doubt. I mean, I'm a gosh darn Argie. My life is a cacophony of a thousand traditions from a thousand cultures mixing and splitting and doing all manner of strange stuff (I suspect it won't be long before somebody here comes up with barbecued beef sushi or something like that). If we start policing which traditions belong exclusively to which culture, it's going to get messy.

The easiest solution is just to not legislate it.

Let's just agree that fake "ethnic" or "exotic" fashion sucks and that fashion designers who do that are stupid dicks, and call it a day.

[Sovaal]

The easiest solution is just to not legislate it.

Let's just agree that fake "ethnic" or "exotic" fashion sucks and that fashion designers who do that are stupid dicks, and call it a day.

It doesn't even look good.

[Liriena]

Let's just agree that fake "ethnic" or "exotic" fashion sucks and that fashion designers who do that are stupid dicks, and call it a day.

It doesn't even look good.

Tell me about it.