NationStates

Outer Sparta wrote:

Neo Balka wrote:
shouldve made it into a state, that wouldve solved many problems.

They would've been a slave had that happened. The South wanted Cuba but there were rumors and their plan didn't succeed.

It would've become free eventually anyway given the Civil War.
Considering the ethnicity of the locals I doubt they'd be okay with slavers.

Genivaria wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:They would've been a slave had that happened. The South wanted Cuba but there were rumors and their plan didn't succeed.

It would've become free eventually anyway given the Civil War.
Considering the ethnicity of the locals I doubt they'd be okay with slavers.

The South wanted Cuba because there would be a way for slavery to expand. Franklin Pierce wanted Cuba via the Ostend Manifesto.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Neo Balka wrote:
shouldve made it into a state, that wouldve solved many problems.

They would've been a slave had that happened. The South wanted Cuba but there were rumors and their plan didn't succeed.

What is the SPanish american war and why was it fought AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

Neo Balka wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:They would've been a slave had that happened. The South wanted Cuba but there were rumors and their plan didn't succeed.

What is the SPanish american war and why was it fought AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

The Cuba plans were before the Civil War.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Neo Balka wrote:
What is the SPanish american war and why was it fought AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

The Cuba plans were before the Civil War.

Yes.

now if fuckin only we took them over after we kicked spain in the dick.

buuuuut noooooo had to take over the philippines instead.

Neo Balka wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:They would've been a slave had that happened. The South wanted Cuba but there were rumors and their plan didn't succeed.

What is the SPanish american war and why was it fought AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

Eh. I disagree with Theodore Roosevelt's Agression in the events leading to the Spanish American war, but I at least admire that he was always the first one willing to go into battle.

Today's neocons do everything they can to avoid the wars they cause.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Genivaria wrote:It would've become free eventually anyway given the Civil War.
Considering the ethnicity of the locals I doubt they'd be okay with slavers.

The South wanted Cuba because there would be a way for slavery to expand. Franklin Pierce wanted Cuba via the Ostend Manifesto.

I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

Neo Balka wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:The Cuba plans were before the Civil War.

Yes.

now if fuckin only we took them over after we kicked spain in the dick.

buuuuut noooooo had to take over the philippines instead.

We could've done both.

Genivaria wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:The South wanted Cuba because there would be a way for slavery to expand. Franklin Pierce wanted Cuba via the Ostend Manifesto.

I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

Neo Balka wrote:
Yes.

now if fuckin only we took them over after we kicked spain in the dick.

buuuuut noooooo had to take over the philippines instead.

We could've done both.

Cuba has Hispanic women....and cigars.....but mostly women!

Genivaria wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:The South wanted Cuba because there would be a way for slavery to expand. Franklin Pierce wanted Cuba via the Ostend Manifesto.

I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

That might've prevented further conflicts down the road and we get nice Cuban beaches and cigars as well!

Genivaria wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:The South wanted Cuba because there would be a way for slavery to expand. Franklin Pierce wanted Cuba via the Ostend Manifesto.

I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

Neo Balka wrote:
Yes.

now if fuckin only we took them over after we kicked spain in the dick.

buuuuut noooooo had to take over the philippines instead.

We could've done both.

So long as we avoided the American atrocities committed in the Philippines, the prospect of Cuba becoming an American territory is attractive.

I doubt the rebels would have agreed, and we would have had to take the same measures the Spanish used to subdue the population.

Kanadorika wrote:

Genivaria wrote:I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

We could've done both.

So long as we avoided the American atrocities committed in the Philippines, the prospect of Cuba becoming an American territory is attractive.

I doubt the rebels would have agreed, and we would have had to take the same measures the Spanish used to subdue the population.

And thats why they lost their living privileges.

Kanadorika wrote:

Genivaria wrote:I know the details to it, I'm just saying I wish we could've gotten Cuba without spreading slavery.

We could've done both.

So long as we avoided the American atrocities committed in the Philippines, the prospect of Cuba becoming an American territory is attractive.

I doubt the rebels would have agreed, and we would have had to take the same measures the Spanish used to subdue the population.

Then we can give them an option, statehood or a 'free association' where they basically have open borders and markets with us.
We make being Americans sound so damn nice after awhile that they ASK to join us.

Neo Balka wrote:

Kanadorika wrote:So long as we avoided the American atrocities committed in the Philippines, the prospect of Cuba becoming an American territory is attractive.

I doubt the rebels would have agreed, and we would have had to take the same measures the Spanish used to subdue the population.

And thats why they lost their living privileges.

I see we have two different ideas of conquest, mine is more subversive.

Fostoria wrote:I support the President's decision. We shouldn't be cooperating with socialist dictatorships.

Hmm... Somebody didn't open his history books...


Tito, Stalin, even Castro very very early on... There's a lot of socialist leaders (that's not even counting the democratic socialist leaders of Western Europe), that the U.S. has been perfectly willing to collaborate with whenever it's convenient.

Only when Castro nationalised the night-life and the Don Corleone's threw a fit did he suddenly become the devil...

Genivaria wrote:

Neo Balka wrote:
And thats why they lost their living privileges.

I see we have two different ideas of conquest, mine is more subversive.

Why not both?

This was an excellent move, quiet frankly, by President Donald J. Trump. Cuba is nothing more than an isolated hermit kingdom with its people living under a barbaric and terror-supporting hereditary dictatorship, similiar to but not to the same degree as North Korea. The current Cuban regime should not be tolerated due to its countless crimes and harbouring of wanted criminals, including terrorists and murderers, who are fleeing from justice from Western countries. Pressure should be continued to be put on Cuba until they are willing to reform and introduce democratic principles to their system, release all political prisoners and deport wanted felons.

That said, I don't want a armed conflict in Cuba or American military intervention. Let this move encourage peaceful opposition by the Cuban people to the Castro regime and set the country on a course to establish a healthy liberal democracy and republic that won't let itself fall so easily to communist hijackers again.

Greater Carloso wrote:This was an excellent move, quiet frankly, by President Donald J. Trump. Cuba is nothing more than an isolated hermit kingdom with its people living under a barbaric and terror-supporting hereditary dictatorship, similiar to but not to the same degree as North Korea. The current Cuban regime should not be tolerated due to its countless crimes and harbouring of wanted criminals, including terrorists and murderers, who are fleeing from justice from Western countries. Pressure should be continued to be put on Cuba until they are willing to reform and introduce democratic principles to their system, release all political prisoners and deport wanted felons.

That said, I don't want a armed conflict in Cuba or American military intervention. Let this move encourage peaceful opposition by the Cuban people to the Castro regime and set the country on a course to establish a healthy liberal democracy and republic that won't let itself fall so easily to communist hijackers again.

I have to say, the first sentence in this post is glorious in every possible way.

Greater Carloso wrote:This was an excellent move, quiet frankly, by President Donald J. Trump. Cuba is nothing more than an isolated hermit kingdom with its people living under a barbaric and terror-supporting hereditary dictatorship, similiar to but not to the same degree as North Korea. The current Cuban regime should not be tolerated due to its countless crimes and harbouring of wanted criminals, including terrorists and murderers, who are fleeing from justice from Western countries. Pressure should be continued to be put on Cuba until they are willing to reform and introduce democratic principles to their system, release all political prisoners and deport wanted felons.

That said, I don't want a armed conflict in Cuba or American military intervention. Let this move encourage peaceful opposition by the Cuban people to the Castro regime and set the country on a course to establish a healthy liberal democracy and republic that won't let itself fall so easily to communist hijackers again.

We've been putting pressure on Cuba for decades and it didn't create a large opposition movement. The Cuban people need to believe that changes can actually occur.

Neo Balka wrote:

Genivaria wrote:I see we have two different ideas of conquest, mine is more subversive.

Why not both?

Long term consequences.
I love the whole 'hearts and minds' strategy.

Make them want to join you and that's one less war you have to fight 10 years down the road.

Geilinor wrote:We've been putting pressure on Cuba for decades and it didn't create a large opposition movement. The Cuban people need to believe that changes can actually occur.

Raúl's pledge to step down in 2018 offers an opportunity for President Trump and the United States to encourage real change in Cuba, whoever his successor may be. So far, any details on a possible successor to Raúl is really ambiguous, but is likely to be taken from the political and military elite - something I hope isn't the case.

Greater Carloso wrote:This was an excellent move, quiet frankly, by President Donald J. Trump.¹ Cuba is nothing more than an isolated hermit kingdom with its people living under a barbaric and terror-supporting hereditary dictatorship, similiar to but not to the same degree as North Korea. ²The current Cuban regime should not be tolerated due to its countless crimes and harbouring of wanted criminals, including terrorists and murderers, who are fleeing from justice from Western countries. Pressure should be continued to be put on Cuba until they are willing to reform and introduce democratic principles to their system, release all political prisoners and deport wanted felons.³

That said, I don't want a armed conflict in Cuba or American military intervention. Let this move encourage peaceful opposition by the Cuban people to the Castro regime and set the country on a course to establish a healthy liberal democracy and republic that won't let itself fall so easily to communist hijackers again.⁴

¹Trump's move is only a partial tightening of embargo measures loosened by Obama, it does not tighten all the way back to what was before Obama. Trump has made a weak change to please the elderly Cuban-American part of the Republican base, it's not a serious attempt to achieve what the embargo has for so long failed to do ... because the only way that works is with a much tighter embargo.

² "Axis of Evil" bullshit. The US is not at war with Cuba, Cuba is not armed with nuclear weapons or even conventional forces comparable to NK, the US has millions of Cuban-Americans who likely would return to Cuba if it was freer and more prosperous, the suppression of speech and free enterprise in Cuba is not of the same type nor extent as in NK ... it's just ridicuous to say they're the same in all but degree.

³ Never worked before, won't work now. It's not even "continuing", as in note 1, it's less pressure than applied before Obama

⁴ It's good that you aren't proposing military force to establish democracy in Cuba, but the other way to Democracy is by the growth of a middle class, ie a large plurality or actual majority of the population being employed at good wages in a capitalist system, and the feature which distinguishes middle class from working class which is class mobility. It needn't be a pure capitalist system for that, in fact it can be a heavily regulated capitalism. The Cuban government does not allow all forms of capitalism but it does allow some: those that it does allow are being directly impeded by US sanctions.

A country can have capitalism without democracy, but not democracy without capitalism. It follows that capitalism first, democracy later is a viable course for Cuba. That is not helped, in fact it is hindered, by a US policy which demands complete liberalization in every ordinate as a condition of lifting the embargo.

Finally, I guess I will give Donald Trump some credit. At least he didn't go full retard and try for an even tighter embargo than applied before Obama.

Greater Carloso wrote:

Geilinor wrote:We've been putting pressure on Cuba for decades and it didn't create a large opposition movement. The Cuban people need to believe that changes can actually occur.

Raúl's pledge to step down in 2018 offers an opportunity for President Trump and the United States to encourage real change in Cuba, whoever his successor may be. So far, any details on a possible successor to Raúl is really ambiguous, but is likely to be taken from the political and military elite - something I hope isn't the case.

We can always encourage change with or without an embargo.

Neo Balka wrote:

Zurkerx wrote:Well, we can't keep an embargo on the island forever. Baby steps, my friends.

shouldve made it into a state, that wouldve solved many problems.

I've always wondered what would happened if Cuba became a State. While I wouldn't have opposed it, I believe the Cuban people should have a choice, a choice I believe would of been independence.

Geilinor wrote:

Greater Carloso wrote:This was an excellent move, quiet frankly, by President Donald J. Trump. Cuba is nothing more than an isolated hermit kingdom with its people living under a barbaric and terror-supporting hereditary dictatorship, similiar to but not to the same degree as North Korea. The current Cuban regime should not be tolerated due to its countless crimes and harbouring of wanted criminals, including terrorists and murderers, who are fleeing from justice from Western countries. Pressure should be continued to be put on Cuba until they are willing to reform and introduce democratic principles to their system, release all political prisoners and deport wanted felons.

That said, I don't want a armed conflict in Cuba or American military intervention. Let this move encourage peaceful opposition by the Cuban people to the Castro regime and set the country on a course to establish a healthy liberal democracy and republic that won't let itself fall so easily to communist hijackers again.

We've been putting pressure on Cuba for decades and it didn't create a large opposition movement. The Cuban people need to believe that changes can actually occur.

Another aspect of US policy (wet foot dry foot) has actually sapped political opposition to the Castro regime. Political dissents who would form an opposition within Cuba have the option of residency in the US instead, if only they can cross the water.

Most of the first generation Cuban-Americans are really economic refugees, but they find themselves more welcome in the US if they play up the extent to which their migration was forced by political repression. "Fleeing communism" makes them supposedly more worthy immigrants than just "fleeing poverty and boredom". And yet, among them are certainly some genuine political refugees who would have been outspoken and would have been imprisoned if they had stayed.

Neo Balka wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:The Cuba plans were before the Civil War.

Yes.

now if fuckin only we took them over after we kicked spain in the dick.

buuuuut noooooo had to take over the philippines instead.

We did take Cuba over for a year. They were then given independence.