[Abortion][REVISED POLL] If you had the power...

[Greater Gilead]

No. I can think of health issues that come from bad decisions like tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc. (STD's too.) People with health issues from those don't deserve pity, or help, because it's their own fault.

So, to be clear, if someone is pregnant, has an STD, or is suffering some illness stemming from the use of alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs, then that person has no right to control their own body. According to you. They essentially become a slave.

This is what you are saying, yes?

NO. They have a right to control their bodies. That's how they got to that position in the first place. But murdering a baby to fix your mistake is logically stupid. (What did the baby do to deserve death?)

[Genivaria]

The instant the fetus' presence is objected to provides all the justification necessary. Whether it 'intends' harm or not is functionally irrelevant. What matters is that a harm is presented. The woman takes the minimum necessary actions to remedy the situation, and that results in the fetus' death. Such is a sad thing, but offers no protection against the action.

If anything it should be taken as a sign to promote policies that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies rather than simply prohibit access to abortion services.

If objection to the fetus is all the justification to murder it, what if I object to my neighbor? And the baby is the woman's fault, my neighbor is not.

You have the right to tell your neighbor to get out of your house yes.

And the baby is the woman's fault

You seem pretty obsessed with the idea that pregnancy is a punishment, it's kinda disturbing.

[Greater Gilead]

If objection to the fetus is all the justification to murder it, what if I object to my neighbor? And the baby is the woman's fault, my neighbor is not.

Is the neighbour crawling inside your body without your consent?

No, but how did the baby come to be there? YOUR CHOICES!

[Greater Gilead]

If objection to the fetus is all the justification to murder it, what if I object to my neighbor? And the baby is the woman's fault, my neighbor is not.

You have the right to tell your neighbor to get out of your house yes.

And the baby is the woman's fault

You seem pretty obsessed with the idea that pregnancy is a punishment, it's kinda disturbing.

No, I'm just not sure of the right word to use, fault does give the punishment connotation.

[Genivaria]

Is the neighbour crawling inside your body without your consent?

No, but how did the baby come to be there? YOUR CHOICES!

Abstinence only education. *nods*

[Esternial]

Is the neighbour crawling inside your body without your consent?

No, but how did the baby come to be there? YOUR CHOICES!

So if I invite my neighbour into my house and he won't leave I have nobody to blame but myself.

[Greater Gilead]

No, but how did the baby come to be there? YOUR CHOICES!

So if I invite my neighbour into my house and he won't leave I have nobody to blame but myself.

No, because hopefully when you invited him in you expected him to leave. When you make choices that result in a baby, you are not expecting it to just go away.

[Genivaria]

You have the right to tell your neighbor to get out of your house yes.

You seem pretty obsessed with the idea that pregnancy is a punishment, it's kinda disturbing.

No, I'm just not sure of the right word to use, fault does give the punishment connotation.

Then you should stop using 'fault'.
With that alone you're already depicting the pregnancy as a tragedy.

[Omnonia]

Abstinence only education. *nods*

...which are a severe contributor to unwanted teenage pregnancies. Oh the irony would be so, so sweet... if it weren't so depressingly heartbreaking.

[Greater Gilead]

No, but how did the baby come to be there? YOUR CHOICES!

Abstinence only education. *nods*

True.

NOTE:
Before anyone gets any wrong ideas based on my NS nation name, flag, and banner, everything I have said here, and will say, is OOC, and my real life views.

[Ifreann]

So, to be clear, if someone is pregnant, has an STD, or is suffering some illness stemming from the use of alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs, then that person has no right to control their own body. According to you. They essentially become a slave.

This is what you are saying, yes?

NO. They have a right to control their bodies. That's how they got to that position in the first place. But murdering a baby to fix your mistake is logically stupid. (What did the baby do to deserve death?)

No? If women retain the right to control their own bodies when they are pregnant then obviously they can exercise that right by removing the unwanted unborn baby. But you said that she can't do that because her being pregnant is her fault.

So which is it?

[Greater Gilead]

Abstinence only education. *nods*

...which are a severe contributor to unwanted teenage pregnancies. Oh the irony would be so, so sweet... if it weren't so depressingly heartbreaking.

Abstinence teaching is a contributor to teen pregnancies? That contradictory.

[Genivaria]

Abstinence only education. *nods*

True.

NOTE:
Before anyone gets any wrong ideas based on my NS nation name, flag, and banner, everything I have said here, and will say, is OOC, and my real life views.

.....no shit?

[Greater Gilead]

NO. They have a right to control their bodies. That's how they got to that position in the first place. But murdering a baby to fix your mistake is logically stupid. (What did the baby do to deserve death?)

No? If women retain the right to control their own bodies when they are pregnant then obviously they can exercise that right by removing the unwanted unborn baby. But you said that she can't do that because her being pregnant is her fault.

So which is it?

If the baby is unwanted, why did the woman make the choices that lead to it? The baby is the result of HER choices, obviously.

[Godular]

The instant the fetus' presence is objected to provides all the justification necessary. Whether it 'intends' harm or not is functionally irrelevant. What matters is that a harm is presented. The woman takes the minimum necessary actions to remedy the situation, and that results in the fetus' death. Such is a sad thing, but offers no protection against the action.

If anything it should be taken as a sign to promote policies that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies rather than simply prohibit access to abortion services.

If objection to the fetus is all the justification to murder it, what if I object to my neighbor? And the baby is the woman's fault, my neighbor is not.

A neighbor is not inherently violating your personal space. If your neighbor happens to be on your property without your permission and refuses to leave, even when you produce a shotgun... welp, my condolences to the family of said neighbor. Y'know the best part tho? The situation doesn't care if the neighbor was invited on your property and subsequently told to vacate the premises. The neighbor doesn't get to hole up in your house indefinitely just because you let them in.

So it matters not whether it is 'the woman's fault' (nice misogyny there, bee tee dub). All that matters is that the situation is remedied. The fetus dies in the process. Unfortunate but not special.

[Esternial]

So if I invite my neighbour into my house and he won't leave I have nobody to blame but myself.

No, because hopefully when you invited him in you expected him to leave. When you make choices that result in a baby, you are not expecting it to just go away.

In both the first scenario and an unwanted pregnancy, you don't want them to stay.

If they do decide to outstay their welcome, you're more than justified to ask them to leave or take means to make them leave.

[Ifreann]

...which are a severe contributor to unwanted teenage pregnancies. Oh the irony would be so, so sweet... if it weren't so depressingly heartbreaking.

Abstinence teaching is a contributor to teen pregnancies? That contradictory.

Not really. People are only told to be abstinent and not taught how to have sex safely. So they have sex anyway and, surprise surprise, don't know how to do it safely. Bam, teen pregnancy.

[Genivaria]

...which are a severe contributor to unwanted teenage pregnancies. Oh the irony would be so, so sweet... if it weren't so depressingly heartbreaking.

Abstinence teaching is a contributor to teen pregnancies? That contradictory.

No it's not.
States that have abstinence only education instead of comprehensive sex ed have higher teenage pregnancy rates as a rule.

That's a fact.
They also tend to be the most conservative states, and in the bible belt.
https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about ... e-text.htm

[Greater Gilead]

Abstinence teaching is a contributor to teen pregnancies? That contradictory.

Not really. People are only told to be abstinent and not taught how to have sex safely. So they have sex anyway and, surprise surprise, don't know how to do it safely. Bam, teen pregnancy.

That is because they don't follow the teaching. It is still the result of the woman's choices.

[Esternial]

No? If women retain the right to control their own bodies when they are pregnant then obviously they can exercise that right by removing the unwanted unborn baby. But you said that she can't do that because her being pregnant is her fault.

So which is it?

If the baby is unwanted, why did the woman make the choices that lead to it? The baby is the result of HER choices, obviously.

Sometimes you get something you don't want.

Like us showing you your faults in reasoning, unless you deliberately make these faulty arguments because you want us to do so. After all, this is the result of YOUR choices, obviously.

[Genivaria]

No? If women retain the right to control their own bodies when they are pregnant then obviously they can exercise that right by removing the unwanted unborn baby. But you said that she can't do that because her being pregnant is her fault.

So which is it?

If the baby is unwanted, why did the woman make the choices that lead to it? The baby is the result of HER choices, obviously.

Because it's her body.

[Genivaria]

Not really. People are only told to be abstinent and not taught how to have sex safely. So they have sex anyway and, surprise surprise, don't know how to do it safely. Bam, teen pregnancy.

That is because they don't follow the teaching. It is still the result of the woman's choices.

That's a failure of the policy, you seem to have a real hate-boner for women here.
Everything is there fault right?

[Greater Gilead]

If the baby is unwanted, why did the woman make the choices that lead to it? The baby is the result of HER choices, obviously.

Sometimes you get something you don't want.

Like us showing you your faults in reasoning, unless you deliberately make these faulty arguments because you want us to do so. After all, this is the result of YOUR choices, obviously.

Lets make a comparison to explain this:
Did you want lung cancer? No. Then why did you make the choices that lead to that? (Smoking)
Did you want a baby? No. Then why did you make the choices that lead to that?

[Genivaria]

Sometimes you get something you don't want.

Like us showing you your faults in reasoning, unless you deliberately make these faulty arguments because you want us to do so. After all, this is the result of YOUR choices, obviously.

Lets make a comparison to explain this:
Did you want lung cancer? No. Then why did you make the choices that lead to that? (Smoking)
Did you want a baby? No. Then why did you make the choices that lead to that?

I love that babies are now lung cancer to you.
I'm sorry are you arguing FOR abortion now?

[Ifreann]

No? If women retain the right to control their own bodies when they are pregnant then obviously they can exercise that right by removing the unwanted unborn baby. But you said that she can't do that because her being pregnant is her fault.

So which is it?

If the baby is unwanted, why did the woman make the choices that lead to it?

Because sex is fun.

Duh.

The baby is the result of HER choices, obviously.

You keep saying that as if it means that women therefore should not be allowed to have abortions. But when I ask you if women lose the right to control their own bodies when they're pregnant you say no.

So which is it? Do women become slaves when they're pregnant because you want to force them to suffer the consequences of their choices? Or are they still free people, allowed to terminate their pregnancy if they so choose?