[Abortion][REVISED POLL] If you had the power...

[Omnonia]

Fear is not, in any way, irrational, if you have something to fear.

If the court does not rate you to have been udner the influence of an irrational affect, you do not get §33 to apply to you, and will be held fully responsible for your crime of self defense excess,

That's literally the entire reason why §33 exists: Understanding that irrational reactions can happen in an extreme situation, and allowing for them to be used as an excuse (though not as a justification). If you aren't under irrational affect, you are held responsible for any force you use in self defense beyond the minimum appropriate and available to you. §33 doesn't apply, and you'll likely be declared guilty of a violent crime, possibly sent to jail for it (and possibly for a long time, as excessive force tends to be... well, excessive: Grievous assault, manslaughter, etc.)

So, if you ever were to stand before a court in Germany in a lawsuit that involves §33 (my best wishes to you that it never happens), your lawyer, if he's any competent at all, will impress on you not to say what you just said. It's tantamount to pleading guilty of the crime you're charged with, and tossing away the chance for exoneration under §33.

If you acted rationally, you are both guilty of the crime and can be punished for it. If you acted irrationally, you are guilty, but can (possibly) not be punished.

[Omnonia]

As for the self defense argument ongoing, dude is within 21 feet of me with a knife and appears to be acting in a hostile manner? I get to shoot him. Dude breaks into my house where my wife and kids are sleeping? I get to shoot him. .

Do that in Germany, you best be ready to do 5-10 years of time. If you act self-righteously indignated and unrepentant before the judge... you just bring it closer to 10 than to 5.

[Godular]

I need to go, I have work to do.

When I came here I thought I was walking into a friendly debate (Which I am very willing to do), not jumping into the savage tiger pen it is. I am open to logic, not "because that's how it should be" with no supporting logic.

Your entire argument is some horrendously warped idea of what constitutes murder with zero basis in fact or logic. That you accuse us of such is hilariously ironic.

But, I'll be back.

Don't you threaten me.

[Godular]

As for the self defense argument ongoing, dude is within 21 feet of me with a knife and appears to be acting in a hostile manner? I get to shoot him. Dude breaks into my house where my wife and kids are sleeping? I get to shoot him. .

Do that in Germany, you best be ready to do 5-10 years of time. If you act self-righteously indignated and unrepentant before the judge... you just bring it closer to 10 than to 5.

Man... talk about putting the obligation in the wrong place.

[Alvecia]

It's not about the thoughts, it's that you seem to think that men have no self control when it comes to sex.
The woman could be butt naked dancing about on his fucking lap, but if he rapes her because of that then that's still entirely all his fault.

I am a man. We have self control. But there is something called pulling someone over the edge.

If you are so easily broken, or if you believe men are so easily broken, then let me be the first to tell you there is something wrong with you and I would highly recommend seeking professional help before you harm yourself or others.

[Ventlimer]

As for the self defense argument ongoing, dude is within 21 feet of me with a knife and appears to be acting in a hostile manner? I get to shoot him. Dude breaks into my house where my wife and kids are sleeping? I get to shoot him. .

Do that in Germany, you best be ready to do 5-10 years of time. If you act self-righteously indignated and unrepentant before the judge... you just bring it closer to 10 than to 5.

That is absurd. The assailant does not have rights to life when threatening others lives.

[Omnonia]

Thatbid absurd. The assailant does not have rights to life when threatening others lives.

And you're ever closer to 10 than 5, with every statement. This one is in open defiance of the most central constitutional values, and paints you as a hardened violent criminal out of sincere conviction.

You might possibly even be crossing from manslaughter into murder there, if you get a particularly hard-liner/angry D.A. against you; if so, we're talking life in prison (equaling 20 years until chance for parole; "for life" only in exceptional cases means "until your natural death" in the German system).

Absolutely regardless of what someone does. He always, unconditionally has the right to live. If you think he deserved to die and say that in court, you are just about guaranteed not to be leaving that courtroom as a free man.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Thatbid absurd. The assailant does not have rights to life when threatening others lives.

And you're ever closer to 10 than 5, with every statement. This one is in open defiance of the most central constitutional values, and paints you as a hardened violent criminal out of sincere conviction.

You might possibly even be crossing from manslaughter into murder there, if you get a particularly hard-liner/angry D.A. against you; if so, we're talking life in prison (equaling 20 years until change for parole; "for life" only in exceptional cases means "until your natural death" in the German system).

Absolutely regardless of what someone does. He always, unconditionally has the right to live. If you think he derseves to die and say that in court, you are just about guaranteed not to be leaving be that courtroom as a free man.

Sounds like Germany isn't a very great place to live.

[Torrocca]

... Didn't think I'd wake up to read someone defending rape, especially of children.

What the ever-loving shitting fucking hell is wrong with some people?

[Omnonia]

Sounds like Germany isn't a very great place to live.

How so? I think that makes it sound like one of the best places to live in the world.

[Ventlimer]

Thatbid absurd. The assailant does not have rights to life when threatening others lives.

And you're ever closer to 10 than 5, with every statement. This one is in open defiance of the most central constitutional values, and paints you as a hardened violent criminal out of sincere conviction.

You might possibly even be crossing from manslaughter into murder there, if you get a particularly hard-liner/angry D.A. against you; if so, we're talking life in prison (equaling 20 years until chance for parole; "for life" only in exceptional cases means "until your natural death" in the German system).

Absolutely regardless of what someone does. He always, unconditionally has the right to live. If you think he deserved to die and say that in court, you are just about guaranteed not to be leaving that courtroom as a free man.

No. Not when they threaten my family. They will die if they so much as harmed a hair on their head.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Sounds like Germany isn't a very great place to live.

How so? I think that makes it sound like one of the best places to live in the world.

I'm not big on placing restrictions on self defense like that, myself.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not about the thoughts, it's that you seem to think that men have no self control when it comes to sex.
The woman could be butt naked dancing about on his fucking lap, but if he rapes her because of that then that's still entirely all his fault.

I am a man. We have self control. But there is something called pulling someone over the edge.

I decided to step out for a minute to go put lime on the backyard, and as I was out there I thought maybe insulting you would be a good idea, or to tell you to go Google rape and do some study. For a moment, I thought about my girlfriend, who has shared the fact she was raped as a child here on NationStates, and what they might say about the stupid, inane bullshit you seem to espouse. Right now though, I thought of a much better idea, I will use you as an educational opportunity for the future.

The arguments you have made are erroneous, not to mention disgusting, but let's stick to the erroneous part for the moment:

In the first place, rape is never about the sex for the perpetrator. It is never about the sex. People don't rape others because "they're so hot". No rapist, fundamentally, thinks it is justified to rape a person just because they want sex. We, people outside of the rapist's mind, cannot tell why it happens and so we easily associate the act (penetrating another person without their consent) to the motive (they just wanted to get their dick or pussy wet, how sick). If it is not about sex, then what is it about? Control, control is what it is about. When you rape someone, you are forcing your will on her, sex just being the act which you chose to enforce this. So self-control, or provocative clothing, or a little girl wearing strawberry shortcake panties have absolutely nothing to do with rape and why a rapist chose to rape them.

Now, I don't care what you might think about "pulling over the edge", or "she was asking for it", or anything like that. The abuse a victim of rape of molestation suffers is not because she was asking for it, because her parents didn't love her as a child, whatever that reason is, is irrelevant to the discussion about rape and, more importantly, childhood sexual abuse and molestation. Children never, ever ask to be abused, they're children. A 10 year old doesn't know any better from an 8 year old, and even if they did, that is still not a reason to rape someone or to justify raping someone under "she was dressing provocatively so she was asking for it".

In so far as your "friends", you have shitty friends if they're willing to back you up on this one. Because it is beyond the deplorable, the vile, to try to justify raping a child because they might be at fault. God forbid that the child has a strawberry shortcake panties set! Rapist LOVE the fuck out of strawberry shortcake panties!

This is not what happens. And you must have had a pretty sheltered life from victims of rape to not understand rape, nor why is it that trying to justify the rape of a child has you meeting a lot of backlash in this thread for your opinion. I don't envy you, but at the same time, be thankful you've never had to deal with one of your friends being raped or sexually molested for y'all to have so much freedom to talk the shit y'all do.

[Omnonia]

No. Not when they threaten my family. They will die if they so much as harmed a hair on their head.

Confessed guilty to what sounds more and more like premedidated murder. Go to jail, go directly to jail, don't pass GO, don't recieve 400 €.

I'm not big on placing restrictions on self defense like that, myself.

And I, like the overwhelming majority of the electorate, am not big on keeping self-defense as frighteningly unrestricted as you and Vent seem to prefer. To me, that sounds like primitive, barbaric anarchy. Citizens should not be allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner, and piss over human rights.

No, not even at gunpoint.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Seriously, dude. Where did you cone from. A case study needs to be performed on you and your friends to understand how these views develop and how we can prevent them.

I am from the USA. Here is where the viewscame from: https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/King-James-Version-KJV-Bible. In the USA we have freedom of religion, so don't fuss about that.

No, this is not where that view comes from.

You don't get to use the Bible to justify this. I am a Christian and I find your idea of raping children being guilty as victims deplorable. This is a horrendous excuse of faith from your part, really, because for you to sit here, claim you are a Christian, and then come and say "a 10 year old is totally asking for it" requires some very fucked up beliefs that are not Christian.

You being a Christian is not the problem, your church being deplorably immoral is, if this is what they teach at your church.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No. Not when they threaten my family. They will die if they so much as harmed a hair on their head.

Confessed guilty to what sounds more and more like premedidated murder. Go to jail, go directly to jail, don't pass GO, don't recieve 400 €.

I'm not big on placing restrictions on self defense like that, myself.

And I, like the overwhelming majority of the electorate, am not big on keeping self-defense as frighteningly unrestricted as you and Vent seem to prefer. To me, that sounds like primitive, barbaric anarchy. Citizens should not be allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner, and piss over human rights.

No, not even at gunpoint.

Well, if someone is threatening to kill me, fuck the law. It's either them or me at that point, and it better be them.

And I don't say "fuck the law" because I think you shouldn't follow the law. I say "fuck the law" because my life is more important than some else's. If they kill me, no amount of retribution from the state is going to bring me back to life. I prefer life sentence in prison than to be dead.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Confessed guilty to what sounds more and more like premedidated murder. Go to jail, go directly to jail, don't pass GO, don't recieve 400 €.



And I, like the overwhelming majority of the electorate, am not big on keeping self-defense as frighteningly unrestricted as you and Vent seem to prefer. To me, that sounds like primitive, barbaric anarchy. Citizens should not be allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner, and piss over human rights.

No, not even at gunpoint.

Well, if someone is threatening to kill me, fuck the law. It's either them or me at that point, and it better be them.

And I don't say "fuck the law" because I think you shouldn't follow the law. I say "fuck the law" because my life is more important than some else's. If they kill me, no amount of retribution from the state is going to bring me back to life. I prefer life sentence in prison than to be dead.

Thankfully you live in a sane state where you won't get a life sentence for such a thing.

[Liriena]

I'm gonna go with the slogan used by "Las Rojas", a students' party in my university:

"Sex ed to choose.
Birth control to avoid abortion.
Legal abortion to avoid death."

(It sounds better in Spanish)

Ideally, legal, safe and free termination of pregnancy would exist in combination with policies aimed at preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place and giving people the education necessary for them to be able to make informed, free decisions when it comes to their sexuality.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm gonna go with the slogan used by "Las Rojas", a students' party in my university:

"Sex ed to choose.
Birth control to avoid abortion.
Legal abortion to avoid death."

(It sounds better in Spanish)

Ideally, legal, safe and free termination of pregnancy would exist in combination with policies aimed at preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place and giving people the education necessary for them to be able to make informed, free decisions when it comes to their sexuality.

You know you're not limited to just English, right?

I usually type things in Spanish, but I also offer a translation for non-Spanish speakers for context.

[Ventlimer]

No. Not when they threaten my family. They will die if they so much as harmed a hair on their head.

Confessed guilty to what sounds more and more like premedidated murder. Go to jail, go directly to jail, don't pass GO, don't recieve 400 €.

I'm not big on placing restrictions on self defense like that, myself.

And I, like the overwhelming majority of the electorate, am not big on keeping self-defense as frighteningly unrestricted as you and Vent seem to prefer. To me, that sounds like primitive, barbaric anarchy. Citizens should not be allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner, and piss over human rights.

No, not even at gunpoint.

That's just ridiculous. Whatever, dude.

[Liriena]

I'm gonna go with the slogan used by "Las Rojas", a students' party in my university:

"Sex ed to choose.
Birth control to avoid abortion.
Legal abortion to avoid death."

(It sounds better in Spanish)

Ideally, legal, safe and free termination of pregnancy would exist in combination with policies aimed at preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place and giving people the education necessary for them to be able to make informed, free decisions when it comes to their sexuality.

You know you're not limited to just English, right?

I usually type things in Spanish, but I also offer a translation for non-Spanish speakers for context.

Too late for that

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well, if someone is threatening to kill me, fuck the law. It's either them or me at that point, and it better be them.

And I don't say "fuck the law" because I think you shouldn't follow the law. I say "fuck the law" because my life is more important than some else's. If they kill me, no amount of retribution from the state is going to bring me back to life. I prefer life sentence in prison than to be dead.

Thankfully you live in a sane state where you won't get a life sentence for such a thing.

I mean, apparently he's even wrong about Germany's laws:

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/engli ... html#p0166

And I keep seeing a bunch of other sources where lethal force as a last resort is justified. German law apparently only prevents you from using disproportionate force (ie: shooting someone who's trying to fist fight with you or whatever), but it doesn't prohibit self-defense, even when it might result in a fatal confrontation, if and only if, you had no other choice.

[Godular]

Confessed guilty to what sounds more and more like premedidated murder. Go to jail, go directly to jail, don't pass GO, don't recieve 400 €.



And I, like the overwhelming majority of the electorate, am not big on keeping self-defense as frighteningly unrestricted as you and Vent seem to prefer. To me, that sounds like primitive, barbaric anarchy. Citizens should not be allowed to play judge, jury, and executioner, and piss over human rights.

No, not even at gunpoint.

That's just ridiculous. Whatever, dude.

There is a LOT of misunderstanding in this current argument. German law allows you to use whatever force is necessary to defend yourself from an attack in the moment. It does seem to have more strict regulations about what constitutes such though.

For instance, if you find some crazy guy in your house doing unspeakable things to your loved ones, you are permitted to put bullets in him until such time as he stops that stuff. THAT is perfectly legit.

Should he run away, and you chase him down and KEEP putting bullets in him, THAT is when the court will kick you in the balls.

(this isn't me disagreeing with you or anything, I'm just pointing out a major issue that seems to be fueling this larger argument)

[Ventlimer]

That's just ridiculous. Whatever, dude.

There is a LOT of misunderstanding in this current argument. German law allows you to use whatever force is necessary to defend yourself from an attack in the moment. It does seem to have more strict regulations about what constitutes such though.

For instance, if you find some crazy guy in your house doing unspeakable things to your loved ones, you are permitted to put bullets in him until such time as he stops that stuff. THAT is perfectly legit.

Should he run away, and you chase him down and KEEP putting bullets in him, THAT is when the court will kick you in the balls.

That's reasonable. In America, we still let you shoot at them until they are off your property.

[Godular]

There is a LOT of misunderstanding in this current argument. German law allows you to use whatever force is necessary to defend yourself from an attack in the moment. It does seem to have more strict regulations about what constitutes such though.

For instance, if you find some crazy guy in your house doing unspeakable things to your loved ones, you are permitted to put bullets in him until such time as he stops that stuff. THAT is perfectly legit.

Should he run away, and you chase him down and KEEP putting bullets in him, THAT is when the court will kick you in the balls.

That's reasonable. In America, we still let you shoot at them until they are off your property.

Which itself is reasonable in your own house. You never know if the guy is running away to come at you from another direction or something.