US student who was detained in N. Korea has died

[The Federation of Kendor]

Yeah because massive brain damage isn't an injury. The fact he had severe brain damage isn't even something the North disputes. The North merely claims a combination of botulism and sleeping pills put him into a coma and caused him to become a vegetable while the doctors that examined at him upon his return have said that there was no trace of the toxin in his system and that the damage must have been caused by something else. Ignoring for a second what that else could be and for that matter the debate over the specifics of how he ended up brain dead, there really isn't any debate over the fact that the North fucked up big time. Even if you assume their side of story was true, it doesn't speak well for the way North Korea treats their prisoners. Botulism is primarily caused by improperly stored/prepared food and with proper medical care is almost always treatable. So if they're telling the truth they've basically admitted that the fact that they gave him rotten food and substandard medical care.

As for the autopsy revealing no injuries, that's completely and utter bullshit you must have pulled out your ass for the sole reason that the family has decided against an autopsy.

North Korea does not have state of the art healthcare because the imperialist west have kept North Korea from expanding economically by putting sanctions on them.

The doctors who examined the kid say there is no evidence of any physical abuse.

So you are saying taht the West must tolerate North Korea for being communist because there is only one truly communist nation left in the world and they deal with other "communist" nations, like China or Vietnam. And also the West must tolerate their abuse of Humans because they are enemies of the state and thus deserve it, no matter how cruel it is. And the West actually did that anyway with things like Guantanamo Bay, or their past mistakes

[Sovaal]

He went to North Korea. That's what killed him.

The moment he thought that was a bright idea, he was a walking dead man.

The bourgeoise liberal propaganda that somehow North Korea is responsible for his death, has not been proven to be true at all. There were no injuries when he went to america. The autopsy revealed none.
I believe that North Korea is telling the truth about this situation, and that America has more of a reason to lie about it for political motives.

How about back in the seventies when they where in their prime? What's the excuse for then?

[AiliailiA]

It was botulism and a sleeping pill, not trauma, that put him in a coma.

Doctors checked Otto. There were no drugs in his system.

And even if there were, that doesn't excuse North Korea's shitty treatment of their prisoners.

Drugs wouldn't be detectable more than a year later. The "botulism and a sleeping pill" story happened some time in the month after Warmbier's sentencing (March 16, 2016).

It was botulism and a sleeping pill, not trauma, that put him in a coma.

The doctors who examined him when he came back said that it wasn't botulism.

Botulism on the other hand, COULD be detected more than a year later. By Otto having antibodies to botulism, which presumably he didn't.

[Yortium Allanstan]

[/color][/i]

Are you seriously defending North Korea? And comparing it's insane edicts to laws against child rape?! What the hell is wrong with you?

Are you having trouble with reading comprehension? Because that is not at ALL what I said.

Try reading the ENTIRE post instead of cherry-picking half the thought next time, champ.

You are clearly saying that he deserved to be tortured because 'Arrogant American lol' and compared the draconian edicts of a hermit dictatorship to laws against child sex.

[Frank Zipper]

The family have declined a post-mortem, so we will never know what happened for sure. Rather a wise decision on their part.

[The Federation of Kendor]

The family have declined a post-mortem, so we will never know what happened for sure. Rather a wise decision on their part.

Why? Is that because you think that this will increase tension between North Korea and the US because their lies were discovered by the US

[AiliailiA]

The family have declined a post-mortem, so we will never know what happened for sure. Rather a wise decision on their part.

What is wise about that? How is it good that the public don't have more information which an autopsy could provide?

[Frank Zipper]

The family have declined a post-mortem, so we will never know what happened for sure. Rather a wise decision on their part.

Why? Is that because you think that this will increase tension between North Korea and the US because their lies were discovered by the US

I wouldn't want the death of my child to be used by politicians for anything. This way they can grieve in peace.

[The Federation of Kendor]

The family have declined a post-mortem, so we will never know what happened for sure. Rather a wise decision on their part.

What is wise about that? How is it good that the public don't have more information which an autopsy could provide?

I think the OP think it's wise because it prevent the tension from increasing and it respected the family's wish

[The Federation of Kendor]

Why? Is that because you think that this will increase tension between North Korea and the US because their lies were discovered by the US

I wouldn't want the death of my child to be used by politicians for anything. This way they can grieve in peace.

And thus, the public must have patience and keep speculating

[AiliailiA]

Are you having trouble with reading comprehension? Because that is not at ALL what I said.

Try reading the ENTIRE post instead of cherry-picking half the thought next time, champ.

You are clearly saying that he deserved to be tortured because 'Arrogant American lol' and compared the draconian edicts of a hermit dictatorship to laws against child sex.

I'll quote Katganistan's post.

Furthermore, countries should at least honor an American's rights in their country with their entrance, and not jail them unless a major, *actual* crime has been committed. DPRK honors none of these.

Why do people believe that Americans are somehow protected from the laws of other countries? Does American law enforcement allow foreign tourists to have sex with children in the US simply because it is legal to have sex with children in their home countries?

What happened to this young man is appalling but you are subject to the laws of whatever country you are in. I suggest people do some research on where they wish to travel and the laws they have, and understand that "I'm American" is not the protection from consequence some think it is.

Katganistan is clearly saying Warmbier deserved to be tortured? Uh, no. You need to calm down, if you're seeing words that aren't there. It's adrenelin tensing the fine muscles which control your eyeballs, perhaps. I get that sometimes. But calm down, OK?

Katganistan is comparing the "insane edict" to US laws against child sex? Yes, yes in a way but purposefully. Some countries DO permit adults to have sex with young people (who in US law would be considered children). Saudi Arabia for instance: the man has to marry the girl, but marriage doesn't mean a damn thing in SA since the man can unilaterally divorce the girl the next day. There are some serious issues with legal residents there too, their "guest workers" have very few rights, and some of them are under age. The point is that if US citizens were immune from the laws of countries they travel to, and there was justice and recipricocity between nations, then foreigners would not be subject to US laws when they came to the US.

That paragraph (and noting that you snipped out the second paragraph, which gives further context) does not compare laws in NK with laws in the US. Not in the way you think it does. It certainly does not say that laws against disrespecting the leader are equally valid as laws against having sex with children.

Quite frankly, the variations and exceptions in state laws against "child sex" in the US are themselves insane. Children can be convicted for the felony "producing/distributing child pornography", and put on the sex offender register for life, for sexting other "children" no younger than themselves. Before dismissing North Korea's laws against defaming the leader as "insane edicts" and in the same sentence defending US laws against "child sex" you might want to check you're not being a blatant hypocrit. But that goes beyond what Katganistan was saying.

Read it again, and consider that perhaps you over-reacted? Perhaps you read into it something that wasn't actually there?

[AiliailiA]

Why? Is that because you think that this will increase tension between North Korea and the US because their lies were discovered by the US

I wouldn't want the death of my child to be used by politicians for anything. This way they can grieve in peace.

That would be a good reason, if it was only politicians using Warmbier's death to make political points, AND if having less information meant the politicians didn't try so hard to make those points.

But neither of those is true, is it?

Less information is never better. Less information is a negative, always, and less information can only ever be justified by some other positive: for instance, official secrets can be kept if revealing them would aid rival nations or enemy nations. There is an argument for privacy, a very personal positive, and this is probably what you are relying on though you phrased it very poorly as "they can grieve in peace".

No they can't grieve in peace. That was impossible from the moment it became public that Otto had a severe brain injury.

After all I'm going to agree with you. Slightly. It seems very clear to me that Otto's family consented to allow him to die, by withdrawal of life support. If an autopsy and post-mortem report was done, it would include "cause of death" and that cause of death would be preventable death by lack of life-support. I would support the family in that decision, and support any doctors who advised the family and any doctors involved in ending life support. I think you would too, and Saint Joan posting here with us ... a known skeptic of euthanasia ... would probably back the family in this case.

But not everyone would. A post mortem revealing clearly that life support was withdrawn, for Otto, would expose his surviving family to a whole other kind of public scrutiny and attack, further violating any peace they may still have in mourning. They would be criticized by the crazy religious right who oppose euthanasia on principle. Who believe the family and the taxpayer (when the family are driven broke and the taxpayer has to take it up) should keep human bodies alive indefinitely, to allow time for "god's grace" to magically restore their brain function.

Of course those religious nuts should be paid no attention, but it is hard to pay no attention (to anything really). For the family to be set upon by anti-euthanasia types would be another layer of grief and another disturbance of the peace, which the family can avoid by denying a post mortem of poor Otto's body. I can understand that.

But after all, I wish they'd been more heroic and allowed the post mortem. It's a big deal and a lot of harm follows from it ... it could literally start a war, but even if it doesn't there is a lot of harm in the worsening relations between the US and DPRK. The degree of harm is very influenced by public opinion in the United States. And right there, in public opinion within the United States, less information is bad.

It's a rant I admit it.

[Ondonore]

Something has to be done against the brutal communist regime of North Korea. The United States should invade, together with Japan and China (who isn't really allied with NK anymore) and conquer NK yet before it could launch some nuclear weapon. Without declaration of war, otherwise NK would prepare itself. Then Korea should become reunited.

[The Federation of Kendor]

Something has to be done against the brutal communist regime of North Korea. The United States should invade, together with Japan and China (who isn't really allied with NK anymore) and conquer NK yet before it could launch some nuclear weapon. Without declaration of war, otherwise NK would prepare itself. Then Korea should become reunited.

How? South Korea and Japan will be nuked, and thus, anime, manga, K-pop, K-drama, the economy, etc will be destroyed, radiation will be spread, and many other consequences. Plus, China, still having some remnants of their communist era and rival to the US, treats the North as a buffer zone, and thus, reunifying Korea will literally bring US influence right on it's border (probably will become a problem with Russia too seeing the US forces on Korea now have land access to Russia through a part of the North Korean border).

[Crockerland]

That's unfortunate, and it's obvious the DPRK is responsible for his death, but it was his decision to travel to that concentration camp pretending to be a country in the first place, there's no reason for the USA to escalate it's NK policy over this.

[The Federation of Kendor]

That's unfortunate, and it's obvious the DPRK is responsible for his death, but it was his decision to travel to that concentration camp pretending to be a country in the first place, there's no reason for the USA to escalate it's NK policy over this.

Did that mean that, as an intelligent person who wanted to become a businessman, he must have knowed better when he was offered that trip by a tour company (remember that part, everyone). Also, if it's correct he stole that poster for the purpose as North Korea and his confession said, he should not be tempted to join the Z Society

Also, did that mean his tour friends should also know better too, even if they manage to survive North Korea

[Ethel mermania]

The bourgeoise liberal propaganda that somehow North Korea is responsible for his death, has not been proven to be true at all. There were no injuries when he went to america. The autopsy revealed none.
I believe that North Korea is telling the truth about this situation, and that America has more of a reason to lie about it for political motives.

This?

This is dedication to a shtick.

The one thing I miss is the communist speechifying, i.mean where are the "running dog lackies of the imperialist ruling classes",

But he is right, the tests didn't find any broken bones, or botulism for that matter.

[Ethel mermania]

Why? Is that because you think that this will increase tension between North Korea and the US because their lies were discovered by the US

I wouldn't want the death of my child to be used by politicians for anything. This way they can grieve in peace.

And I would want the son of a bitch who harmed my child to be nuked. That would bring a bit of closure.

[Josepf Stalin]

North Korea does not have state of the art healthcare because the imperialist west have kept North Korea from expanding economically by putting sanctions on them.

The doctors who examined the kid say there is no evidence of any physical abuse.

So you are saying taht the West must tolerate North Korea for being communist because there is only one truly communist nation left in the world and they deal with other "communist" nations, like China or Vietnam. And also the West must tolerate their abuse of Humans because they are enemies of the state and thus deserve it, no matter how cruel it is. And the West actually did that anyway with things like Guantanamo Bay, or their past mistakes

Incorrect. North Korea is not the only communist/socialist country today. There's China, Venezuela, and Cuba. These countries, along with Syria, are victims of western imperialism.

[Uxupox]

So you are saying taht the West must tolerate North Korea for being communist because there is only one truly communist nation left in the world and they deal with other "communist" nations, like China or Vietnam. And also the West must tolerate their abuse of Humans because they are enemies of the state and thus deserve it, no matter how cruel it is. And the West actually did that anyway with things like Guantanamo Bay, or their past mistakes

Incorrect. North Korea is not the only communist/socialist country today. There's China, Venezuela, and Cuba. These countries, along with Syria, are victims of western imperialism.

Venezuela is a victim of itself.

[The Federation of Kendor]

So you are saying taht the West must tolerate North Korea for being communist because there is only one truly communist nation left in the world and they deal with other "communist" nations, like China or Vietnam. And also the West must tolerate their abuse of Humans because they are enemies of the state and thus deserve it, no matter how cruel it is. And the West actually did that anyway with things like Guantanamo Bay, or their past mistakes

Incorrect. North Korea is not the only communist/socialist country today. There's China, Venezuela, and Cuba. These countries, along with Syria, are victims of western imperialism.

So, you are saying Venezuela's economic crisis, Cuba's embargo, China's rivalry with the US, as well as the Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan, and Syria's war against the rebels who wanted democracy are all the West's fault

[Ondonore]

Something has to be done against the brutal communist regime of North Korea. The United States should invade, together with Japan and China (who isn't really allied with NK anymore) and conquer NK yet before it could launch some nuclear weapon. Without declaration of war, otherwise NK would prepare itself. Then Korea should become reunited.

How? South Korea and Japan will be nuked, and thus, anime, manga, K-pop, K-drama, the economy, etc will be destroyed, radiation will be spread, and many other consequences. Plus, China, still having some remnants of their communist era and rival to the US, treats the North as a buffer zone, and thus, reunifying Korea will literally bring US influence right on it's border (probably will become a problem with Russia too seeing the US forces on Korea now have land access to Russia through a part of the North Korean border).

Like I said: One should not declare war but secretly invade together with Japan and South Korea (and maybe China) and conquer NK before Kim Jong-un would be able to launch some nuclear rocket. Why would Reunifying Korea weaken U.S. influence? It would strenghten it (but is that anyway the goal?). And Russia would be scared of the power of the USA and their allies. But you're a liberal, so you probably even support NK's rude and mercyless regime.

[The Federation of Kendor]

How? South Korea and Japan will be nuked, and thus, anime, manga, K-pop, K-drama, the economy, etc will be destroyed, radiation will be spread, and many other consequences. Plus, China, still having some remnants of their communist era and rival to the US, treats the North as a buffer zone, and thus, reunifying Korea will literally bring US influence right on it's border (probably will become a problem with Russia too seeing the US forces on Korea now have land access to Russia through a part of the North Korean border).

Like I said: One should not declare war but secretly invade together with Japan and South Korea (and maybe China) and conquer NK before Kim Jong-un would be able to launch some nuclear rocket. Why would Reunifying Korea weaken U.S. influence? It would strenghten it (but is that anyway the goal?). And Russia would be scared of the power of the USA and their allies. But you're a liberal, so you probably even support NK's rude and mercyless regime.

No, I don't. You misunderstood some of my words. And why do some people associated liberalism=communism. I think it's not, and liberalism is nothing more than social policy aimed at making people more free

[Jumhuriyah Hindustan]

So you are saying taht the West must tolerate North Korea for being communist because there is only one truly communist nation left in the world and they deal with other "communist" nations, like China or Vietnam. And also the West must tolerate their abuse of Humans because they are enemies of the state and thus deserve it, no matter how cruel it is. And the West actually did that anyway with things like Guantanamo Bay, or their past mistakes

Incorrect. North Korea is not the only communist/socialist country today. There's China, Venezuela, and Cuba. These countries, along with Syria, are victims of western imperialism.

Ahahahaha no. take your stalinist apologism elsewhere, bud

[AiliailiA]

Something has to be done against the brutal communist regime of North Korea. The United States should invade, together with Japan and China (who isn't really allied with NK anymore) and conquer NK yet before it could launch some nuclear weapon. Without declaration of war, otherwise NK would prepare itself. Then Korea should become reunited.

North Korea has been preparing itself against invasion for half a century. Preparing against invasion is the mainstay of the government policy which puts the military above all else, literally starving citizens to pay for guns and ammo. And worse, most of the North Korean people actually believe it, they are deadly afraid of The Americans, and they endure their miserable conditions because they believe the alternative is worse.

So defeating the North Korean military wouldn't be that hard. There would be some bad allied losses (civilians in particular, South Koreans, and South Korean military would be targets too) but there's really no doubt that North Korea would lose.

What happens after that, though? Remember the massive commitment China made, in the 1950's, just to stop US/UN forces defeating North Korea. It wasn't even certain the UN forces would fully invade, it was not certain Chinese forces could turn them back, and China risked a huge defeat by making such a huge commitment. China lost lives, ten times the number, but China got what it wanted. Status quo ante bellum. Nobody won that war, technically the war never ended, but there was one and only one participant to achieve their strategic ends. It was China.

Defeating the NK military probably would not be so difficult. Japan is out, you should know this, it is quite basic. China and the US forming a coalition to achieve something which serves US interests more than Chinese interests, perhaps you can be excused for thinking that is possible, but it's really not.

So it's the US, with the consent of South Korea (which the US would definitely need, to invade the North), perhaps with South Korean military and a "coalition" who commit tiny numbers more or less symbolically, to show they are "willing". A couple hundred from Vietnam, a hundred from Australia, two hundred from Poland ... you get the idea. The US would do all the heavy lifting, pay most of the cost (though in that, Japan might help after all), and certainly take most of the military casualties.

OK, so the US military alone could whup the North Korean military. You know this, you're just trying to drag other major powers in, to make it partially their problem and their responsibility what happens after that. The occupation.

Here's a neat idea. The US hits North Korea with everything short of nukes. Totally destroys the military, starting of course with NK artillery within range of South Korea, then picking out nuclear weapon development sites, then going after their medium range missiles. The North Korean military leadership will (correctly) read this as preparations by the US to invade, and will rush whatever nuclear and chemical weapons they have to the best missiles they still have, thus breaking cover under the US satellite surveillance which is much better than they could even imagine. So they lose their nukes, chemical weapons, and the missiles to launch them. Up to this point, only a few hundred North Korean citizens have been killed. And not even that many NK military, twenty thousand or so. But North Korea has lost, they are militarily weaker than South Korea, and militarily weaker than China, and certainly unable to defend themselves against the US.

OK, so far my idea just looks like standard "bomb the shit out of them" tactics you'd expect from the US, given US aversion to losing military lives and ease in spending money, to achieve military aims. But where it is neat, is that the US would deliberately create a power vacuum in North Korea. Bomb and keep bombing, military targets only, until some other power steps in. Mostly China of course, but South Korea has a serious military too and it's a lot closer. Russia has a short land border, it's far from their core interests but it is access to the sea which Russia has always lacked. If the power vacuum somehow endures for two or three years without China or South Korea making a move, the movement of Russian forces to useless frozen wasteland north of North Korea will force their hands. Neither of them (nor the US) want Russia taking all that coastline.

So South Korea and China both invade North Korea. China does not want a land border with South Korea, this is the common wisdom, but China cannot avoid it once the power vacuum is created in North Korea. China will take all it can, but it will not fight South Korea, and being closer with military concentrations near the border, South Korea will take a good part of the prize: Pyongyang and most of the coast. Russia may move late, when North Korea no longer has a government and there is coastline on the narrow north end of North Korea up for the taking. But after all, the South and China would share the spoils equally, not dispute the new border, and both set to the hard work of occupying the territory they claimed.

The US would have no part of it. Having done what they do best (thrash lesser state military forces) the US would have basically no further role. For South Korea it would be like the reunification of Germany: some cultural clash but not much since they share a common language and common history until half a century ago; there's some downturn at first as a minority of poorer citizens are brought into their economy, but then a massive economic boom as the skills and aspirations of those poorer citizens are harnessed by the capitalist economy of their more populous part. For China, occupying the mountains of the northeast and across to the coast, there is a problem of cultural clash (Koreans and Chinese have a long and bad history, also don't speak the same language) but in the lands China would take are less than a million people, it would not be hard for China to build rail and road, invest and bring in a million "settlers" to make their new conquest part of China.

Is any of this ideal? No. Does it provide freedom and justice to the people of North Korea? No. Does it restore Korea to its borders before the North and the South split? No. Is it the safest course, to preserve human life and prevent human suffering in the future? You be the judge.

This is my proposal, that the US fight North Korea, but only their military and never with any intention to invade, or to support any other nation to invade North Korea. Create a power vacuum (because North Korea is essentially a hollowed-out state with nothing but military power) and leave it to the surrounding nations to decide what happens next.

The main objection I can see is that it gives too much quarter to China. And I dismiss that. Let China have some of (North) Korea. Let's draw the border and let there be peace. This is the Chinese century ... "another American century" hit the skids with the election of Donald Trump. The American people do not have the foresight nor the ambition, to maintain their hegemony. The American people do not have the will nor the means to out-compete five times their number of the Chinese people. This is the Chinese century, and when you consider that the best America can do now is to give their ally South Korea a chance to take some of the North. Not all of it, not "reunification". The North is lost, it will never be regained to South Korea, but perhaps some of it, the nearer parts, can be won to the South in a "race to occupy" with the North. Remember how long the division of Germany, "won" by invading forces from East and West, endured. How stark was the division afterwards, between the lives of East and West ... and yet, how peacefully the division was eventually resolved. Just so can it be between Greater South Korea, and Chinese Korea.

All it take is the courage of our convictions. Freedom and democracy (Greater South Korea) versus State Capitalism (Chinese North Korea). Do we have the courage to face down China in this century, confident we can beat them economically like we beat the USSR last century?

In my opinion we do not. Democracy counts to our side, it is the best way to regulate a national economy. Freedom (eg freedom of speech) informs democracy, so that too is an advantage. Democracy has an effect, hard to quantify but definitely positive, influencing all of capitalism from the wage worker to the boss of a small business to the entrepreneur to the merchant bank trader, even to the absurdly over-paid CEO of the biggest corporation. Democracy has some heft, at the very least it signals to capitalists some broad trends of what the people want (no small thing, considering the discontents of the people in State Communist systems ... some porn, and sweets, and motorcycles would have long delayed the collapse of their systems). But democracy is not a "force-mulitplier" to the extent of 4-to-1, or 5-to-1. America is relying on capital, to maintain supremacy over China.

America's strategy to be the only superpower, biggest economy, dominant military power, first among nations, it relies basically on being the Roadrunner. Smarter than Wiley E. Coyote. And it will end suddenly, when dumb ol' Wiley finally unpacks a Mach 12 Shoulder Launched Anti-Continental Missile which actually works. Acme Corporation will get their shit together one day, and the Roadrunner (aka Uncle Sam) will end up as chicken nuggets in the ditch beside the road.