US Representative Shot

[Nulla Bellum]

One could make that argument.

In general, it's not expected that you need to pay to vote. You do, however, need to pay to buy a gun.

Requiring ID adds a price signal to voting (alongside not allowing people leave with pay and similar such things), whereas there is already a cost associated with guns. The racism is the fact that lower-income voters are less likely to be able to hop the price signal, and a disproportionate amout of them are black - the allegation is that it is used as a catch-all in states that have large black populations. The strike down of North Carolina's laws is because they did so explicitly - http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... ter-id-law

The appeals court noted that the North Carolina Legislature "requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices" — then, data in hand, "enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans."

The changes to the voting process "target African Americans with almost surgical precision," the circuit court wrote, and "impose cures for problems that did not exist."

If one is willing to argue that the free market itself and income disparity is racist, then sure, perhaps the process of /selling guns/ is as racist as tacking on voter ID. That'd be a stretch for most people, I suspect.

I'm interested to see how Nulla Bellum ties this back into the topic of the thread.

It's okay to frag military officers if you voted for McGovern.

[Vassenor]

In general, it's not expected that you need to pay to vote. You do, however, need to pay to buy a gun.

Requiring ID adds a price signal to voting (alongside not allowing people leave with pay and similar such things), whereas there is already a cost associated with guns. The racism is the fact that lower-income voters are less likely to be able to hop the price signal, and a disproportionate amout of them are black - the allegation is that it is used as a catch-all in states that have large black populations. The strike down of North Carolina's laws is because they did so explicitly - http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... ter-id-law



If one is willing to argue that the free market itself and income disparity is racist, then sure, perhaps the process of /selling guns/ is as racist as tacking on voter ID. That'd be a stretch for most people, I suspect.

I'm interested to see how Nulla Bellum ties this back into the topic of the thread.

It's okay to frag military officers if you voted for McGovern.

...That's a pretty big non sequitur.

[Vassenor]

So you see no problem with having to pay to exercise a basic human right?

Voting is not a basic human right. It's a right for eligible citizens, and only eligible citizens. In order to ensure that only eligible citizens vote, a reasonable standard of presenting photo ID (or supporting documents if needed) is completely acceptable. There are reasonable costs associated with things like buying guns or getting a gun license, as well.

Voting is a human right? When did that happen? I'm honestly confused.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/ ... ns/eng.pdf

Article 21
1. Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
2. Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
3. The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

[Jamzmania]

Voting is not a basic human right. It's a right for eligible citizens, and only eligible citizens. In order to ensure that only eligible citizens vote, a reasonable standard of presenting photo ID (or supporting documents if needed) is completely acceptable. There are reasonable costs associated with things like buying guns or getting a gun license, as well.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/ ... ns/eng.pdf

"Basic human right" implies that all people, regardless of citizenship and other status, would be able to vote. Or at least that's the implication that I took out of it. Regardless, my point still stands.

[Vassenor]

"Basic human right" implies that all people, regardless of citizenship and other status, would be able to vote. Or at least that's the implication that I took out of it. Regardless, my point still stands.

So why should you have to pay to engage in the democratic process?

[Jamzmania]

"Basic human right" implies that all people, regardless of citizenship and other status, would be able to vote. Or at least that's the implication that I took out of it. Regardless, my point still stands.

So why should you have to pay to engage in the democratic process?

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

[Vassenor]

So why should you have to pay to engage in the democratic process?

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

Because the two are not actually comparable. Voting is not like owning a gun.

[Nulla Bellum]

It's okay to frag military officers if you voted for McGovern.

...That's a pretty big non sequitur.

As was the fragging discussion a few pages back.

[Telconi]

I see. Showing ID to vote is racism, but showing ID to buy a gun is not.

When voter ID schemes tend to be set up in ways that disenfranchise ethnic minorities...

When gun control schemes tend to be set up in ways that disarm ethnic minorities...

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

Because the two are not actually comparable. Voting is not like owning a gun.

It is a right to own a gun here in Freedomstan, it's a pretty fair question.

Why should I have to pay $50 per background check? Does that not unfairly prevent the poor from exercising their right to bear arms?

[Jamzmania]

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

Because the two are not actually comparable.

Regardless of whether you think they are or not, you don't actually have to pay to vote with a voter ID law. Although I'm confident that the vast, vast majority of people would be able to afford whatever small fee might be involved in getting a state-issued ID (less than $20 I believe), you can just get a birth certificate, or utility bill, or other document if there is a reasonable impediment to acquiring a photo ID. At least, that's how it works in Texas.

[The Widening Gyre]

Because anyone can get an ID?

No actually not everyone can get an ID.

It never ceases to amaze me as a non-American that government ID is not provided to all US citizens without cost.

[Ifreann]

So how are voter ID schemes not disenfranchising in their implementation?

Because anyone can get an ID?

They just have to go down the DMV, which is open in the afternoon on the fifth Wednesday of every month.

---

So you see no problem with having to pay to exercise a basic human right?

Voting is not a basic human right. It's a right for eligible citizens, and only eligible citizens. In order to ensure that only eligible citizens vote, a reasonable standard of presenting photo ID (or supporting documents if needed) is completely acceptable. There are reasonable costs associated with things like buying guns or getting a gun license, as well.

There are very few humans who aren't citizens of somewhere.

---

So why should you have to pay to engage in the democratic process?

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

Why should you have to pay to get a gun?

[Jamzmania]

No actually not everyone can get an ID.

It never ceases to amaze me as a non-American that government ID is not provided to all US citizens without cost.

I think it would probably be best for the states to issue IDs, at least so we can stop using the stupid social security numbers.

[The Widening Gyre]

It never ceases to amaze me as a non-American that government ID is not provided to all US citizens without cost.

I think it would probably be best for the states to issue IDs, at least so we can stop using the stupid social security numbers.

... And have 50+ different ID systems? That seems extremely excessive. One federal government photo ID, issued at age 18 and renewed every 4 years (for example). Super simple, covers everyone.

[Jamzmania]

I think it would probably be best for the states to issue IDs, at least so we can stop using the stupid social security numbers.

... And have 50+ different ID systems? That seems extremely excessive. One federal government photo ID, issued at age 18 and renewed every 4 years (for example). Super simple, covers everyone.

I think the federal government has the ability to, at the very least, keep up with a mere 50 different systems. They're just numbers, after all. In order to identify a citizen, you'd just need two things: state and number. Easy peasy.

[The Widening Gyre]

... And have 50+ different ID systems? That seems extremely excessive. One federal government photo ID, issued at age 18 and renewed every 4 years (for example). Super simple, covers everyone.

I think the federal government has the ability to, at the very least, keep up with a mere 50 different systems. They're just numbers, after all. In order to identify a citizen, you'd just need two things: state and number. Easy peasy.

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

[Ifreann]

I think the federal government has the ability to, at the very least, keep up with a mere 50 different systems. They're just numbers, after all. In order to identify a citizen, you'd just need two things: state and number. Easy peasy.

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

Some people just don't like the federal government doing things.

[Jamzmania]

I think the federal government has the ability to, at the very least, keep up with a mere 50 different systems. They're just numbers, after all. In order to identify a citizen, you'd just need two things: state and number. Easy peasy.

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

Because I don't want the feds doing it if they don't have to.

[Vassenor]

I think the federal government has the ability to, at the very least, keep up with a mere 50 different systems. They're just numbers, after all. In order to identify a citizen, you'd just need two things: state and number. Easy peasy.

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

Except the Social Security numbers are a load of crap.

[The Widening Gyre]

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

Because I don't want the feds doing it if they don't have to.

Why? This is like one of the least controversial things I can possibly think of the federal government doing. Literally no downsides.

[Telconi]

Why should you have to pay to get a carry license?

Because the two are not actually comparable. Voting is not like owning a gun.

Basic human right. = Basic human right.

Yeah, I think they are.

[The Widening Gyre]

I don't doubt that they have the ability to do it. I'm just questioning what possible reason there would be to do it since a federal system would be so much easier. Social security numbers already exist, so all it would require is associating a photo with that number and printing a card.

Except the Social Security numbers are a load of crap.

... Oh for the love of god, America. I despair of you sometimes, I really do.

[Nulla Bellum]

Left-wing nutbag shoots at Republican congressmen playing softball.

Discuss.

[Vassenor]

Left-wing nutbag shoots at Republican congressmen playing softball.

Discuss.

Not a lot to discuss that we haven't already covered in the brief gaps between tangents.