Crowdfunded Alt-Right Pirates Of The Libyan Coast

[Gravlen]

Actually, I was interested in every claim.

Now, the problem with your source here is my resounding inability to read German.

Most of my claims sort of tie into these statistics, so they're really kind of relevant.

Your inability to understand German is not my problem. I'm speaking from a German perspective, so of course an offical source from the German law enforcement agency is the source I'm going to hand out. And since the situation in Germany is primarily of interest to Germans, they don't really publish a non-German version. I'm not going to bother straw-feeding you forty-six pages of migrant crime statistics just for you to tell me that I'm reading them in a really unfavorable light at the end of that joyride.

Then please, show us some relevant quotes from the report.

[Torrocca]

It's pretty much common knowledge for the most part on my post.

Okay, assume I'm stupid and live under a rock. I need evidence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/manuel-valls-french-terrorism-pm-warns-15000-people-being-radicalised-as-new-paris-attacks-foiled-a7237696.html

Alright, that's evidence. How many of those 15,000 are migrants and refugees, not native-born Frenchmen?

[Gravlen]

Mef, Nak, can I get some sources, preferably unbiased, on your claims? Because I'm very skeptical about them, especially seeing as how in my own searches I could find nothing.

It's pretty much common knowledge for the most part on my post.

What, the post were you opened with an incorrect statement? And now you can't or won't find sources to back the remainder of your claims?

Have you ever heard of a man called Christopher Hitchens? You know, he used to shave from time to time...

[Mefpan]

Most of my claims sort of tie into these statistics, so they're really kind of relevant.

Your inability to understand German is not my problem. I'm speaking from a German perspective, so of course an offical source from the German law enforcement agency is the source I'm going to hand out. And since the situation in Germany is primarily of interest to Germans, they don't really publish a non-German version. I'm not going to bother straw-feeding you forty-six pages of migrant crime statistics just for you to tell me that I'm reading them in a really unfavorable light at the end of that joyride.

Then please, show us some relevant quotes from the report.

And get accused of and dismissed for alleged cherry picking, or regurgitating certain points in an exceedingly unfair way?

Yeah, fuck that.

[Torrocca]

Then please, show us some relevant quotes from the report.

And get accused of and dismissed for alleged cherry picking, or regurgitating certain points in an exceedingly unfair way?

Yeah, fuck that.

Mef, why are you being so stubborn about defending your claim?

[Nakena]

Okay, assume I'm stupid and live under a rock. I need evidence.

What evidence you need or want? Do you expect me to google and find you some "articles" for stuff that is really common knowledge among those who are interested or in some cases have first hand knowledge and expierence with the matter.

I mean i admit, some things are not known and not being mentioned by the MSM and neither alternative media such as the Western Union thing. (which is however common knowledge for all people of 3rd world countries living in the west as it is used to send money back to their relatives.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/manuel-valls-french-terrorism-pm-warns-15000-people-being-radicalised-as-new-paris-attacks-foiled-a7237696.html

Alright, that's evidence. How many of those 15,000 are migrants and refugees, not native-born Frenchmen?

I do assume the majority of them is descendants of french islamic colonials who have been living in France for quite a while. So by now it's in many european countries homegrown islamist terrorism. Which was the point of my post, that Millions of additional muslims inside europe will derail things more than they already are.

[Mefpan]

And get accused of and dismissed for alleged cherry picking, or regurgitating certain points in an exceedingly unfair way?

Mef, why are you being so stubborn about defending your claim?

Because there are certain people where I consider it a lost cause to even try to make them concede a point that goes against their pre-existing worldview.

You're free to reach your own conclusion what category you belong to.

[Torrocca]

What evidence you need or want?

Evidence to your claims. All of them.

I do assume the majority of them is descendants of french islamic colonials who have been living in France for quite a while. So by now it's in many european countries homegrown islamist terrorism. Which was the point of my post, that Millions of additional muslims inside europe will derail things more than they already are.

Refugees and migrants aren't a cause for homegrown terrorist thought. A sweeping majority of the terrorists that have stricken Europe have been 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims that are conflicted with being both European and Muslim - they're stuck in an in-between where they feel they're neither and seemingly ostracized by both. Introducing more Muslims isn't going to change that in-betweener thinking.

But again: how many of these suspected peoples are refugees and migrants, and not these 2nd and 3rd generation peoples? I need numbers. Statistics. Graphs. Charts. All that jazz.

[Torrocca]

Mef, why are you being so stubborn about defending your claim?

Because there are certain people where I consider it a lost cause to even try to make them concede a point that goes against their pre-existing worldview.

You're free to reach your own conclusion what category you belong to.

Mef, just defend your point, and stop making assumptions on people you've barely ever interacted with before, like me.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

To the contrary. As matter of fact, big part of the reasons why things in Europe are not working out is that their societies and it's leaders are unwilling or unable to lay down the rules towards the muslim immigrants. Europe is perceived as weak, as prey. A place that can be blamed and entitlement demanded from.

Again, Muslim immigrants aren't causing issues, and Europe's running perfectly fine.

I agree with that, as far as it goes. But it's really not sufficient rebuttal of the many claims made in IS's post.

I really shouldn't do this, because you probably won't take it as constructive advice, but. I think in the long series of one-on-one replies going back to this, you left too many sketchy claims of IS unaddressed, and that set you up for the big rant which bundles them together and which you now (pardon me for being blunt) really look like you can't address. All Imperium Sidhicum has to do now is let you have the last word (and your last word be only the above) and to anyone who read the whole exchange objectively (a game of debating skills, if you will) that's a contest IS won on points.

My advice is (a) be more wary if that's a poster you're not familiar with, (b) don't get into a long back-and-forth hoping they'll quit before you do, do that only if you're in it to win, and (c) drop out sooner if you're losing on points.

You're a decent poster, you've got your own ideas, and I've yet to see you lie nor pretend not to know something you really do. But you're inexperienced in debate, and IS is pretty tough. That encounter was one you have to learn something from, and whether or not what you learn is any of the things I just said.

I shouldn't post this, advice from strangers is rarely well received. But here it is, maybe it will be taken by some other poster. If it really offends you drop me a TG and I'll edit it out!

Thank you for the advice, friend, and as for the underlined, let me take this on now, as IS has made a strategic blunder.

The fate of other human beings does not concern me when the well-being of my own people is at stake. Maybe in an ideal world us and them could be brothers living in peace and harmony, but that world is unfortunately not the one we live in. In this world of finite resources and fierce competition for them, anybody who is not your of your own folk is either a (temporary) ally or an enemy, and those migrants sure as hell ain't Europe's allies, so that doesn't leave a whole lot else to pick from.

Europe has, for a very long time now, been a safe and comfortable place with the highest living standards in the world. Even while I personally hail from the least-prosperous parts of Europe, even here the living standards and safety are far above most of the remaining world. I like my homeland and Europe as whole just the way it was until recently, and I sure as hell want it to stay that way - prosperous, powerful, safe and happy, for myself, my family and my compatriots and fellow Europeans, regardless of whose expense this prosperity and happiness must be purchased at. Recently, however, that safety and comfort has started to become an increasingly scarce commodity, and the culprits aren't far to be found.

Since their ever-increasing presence hasn't been making my beloved home continent any safer and more prosperous, but to the contrary, I think it's pretty obvious as to why I'm referring to them in most unflattering terms and long to see these unsavoury people removed from European soil by any means necessary.

For your first point: the African and Middle Eastern migrants and refugees to Europe, as they are, are not a threat to Europe. Practically all of them (bar a few exceptions) are in Europe for quite a few reasons, and none of which are, "hey friends, I have a splendid idea. You see those white people up north? Let's go fucking kill and terrorize them so that they appease us." No. Refugees and migrants, as they are, are coming to Europe to flee from the inopportune situations of their lives in their homelands and to find opportunities, safeties, and new lives in a new home. Your argument hinges on, in its basic form, someone buying a new house to live in only to burn it down. Migrants and refugees aren't doing that.

For your second point, refer to my first, with this addendum: Every (or close to) recent incident of terror in Europe has been brought on by native-born peoples, not migrants and refugees. To go back to my first point, if they were, this would be like buying a new house, settling in, and burning it down while you're still inside it.

For your third point, these innocent people have not been causing the dangers in Europe that you perceive. Like any other people, they are the same: like Europeans, they have wants, loves, desires, and all manners of human qualities. They're not running to Europe to cause chaos like some two-dimensional movie villains, but they are going to Europe to acquire their various needs and wants that they can't from the countries they're leaving. Safety is a big one: refugees simply can't find safety in a war zone. My recommendation? Try to stop looking at the migrants and refugees coming to Europe as a "them" and Europeans as an "us" and try to step into their shoes, so to speak. Learn to understand them, especially as you are European. You'll gain true insight into their struggles and who they are, and maybe you'll stop seeing them as "they" and more as "us, too."

The majority of them might indeed not be a danger in themselves, simply looking for a better life. The majority of them might even be decent people. However, the simple fact that there is so many of them is a danger in itself. Even peaceful and law-abiding immigrants still represent a foreign element, ethnically, culturally and religiously. While that element is kept reasonably small and divided, these newcomers will pose no problem and integrate well, simply lacking the numbers or unity to make any concerted efforts against the majority, the few troublesome elements being few and easily contained.

However, when a massive number of migrants are allowed to settle in a region within a short period of time as it is now, that is no longer the case. Much like the natives (and human beings in general), they prefer the familiar and band together for comfort and protection. Gangs and ghettoes are born, alienating the already suspicious natives even further, the immigrant-settled areas becoming tinderboxes of ethnic tension. If the immigrants manage to gain political representation and have sufficient numbers and unity, they can begin to make political demands and concessions they otherwise wouldn't be able (or dare) to extract. If their reproductive rate is considerably above that of the natives, the migrants (especially given their habit of bringing along their extended families) can attain political and numerical majority in their settled areas within a single generation and begin to impose their rules and ways upon the natives in their own country. At this point, mutual resentments are probably high enough for a single spark to trigger a full-blown civil war, complete with ethnic cleansing and genocide.

This pattern has repeated throughout history in every single area where large numbers of foreigners would settle and compete with the natives. The Fall of Rome, the Arab conquests, Drang nach Osten, the Age of Discovery... The modern civil wars around the world also highlight the same problem, of two or more major ethnic groups within an (often artificially-created) country vying for primacy and limited resources. Individually, the vast majority of migrants these days may be completely harmless and peaceful people. It is their numbers that make them a danger.

---

As for terror attacks being perpetrated by homegrown radicals, this highlights another problem, namely the immigrant refusal to integrate. The perpetrators are mostly second and even third-generation immigrants as you promptly pointed out, yet the fact that they have radicalized and carry out such attacks speaks volumes about their lack of loyalty to the native culture and government as well as of the miserable failure of integration policies despite the amount of funding poured into them for the past decades. By admitting more migrants of the same cultural and ethnic backgrounds, Europe is aiding it's enemies by providing these radicals with more manpower to recruit from and bringing them closer to attaining majority status in their areas of residence.

Besides, as all the worst atrocities of recent history attest, it doesn't even take a distinct majority to radicalize entire populations. A tiny group of Bolsheviks seized power in Russia, starting a regime of terror that the peaceful majority was unable to stop. The majority of Germans were not Nazis, yet that didn't keep the Nazis from dragging their compatriots into a world war and genocide. The majority of Japanese had no quarrel whatsoever with the Chinese, yet they failed to stop their ultranationalist government at Nanking and many other places. The majority of Chinese and Cambodians were not Communists, nor were the majority of Rwandan Hutus or Serbs genocidal maniacs, yet they were of no consequence when the massacres started. In every single case, the peaceful majority was irrelevant, it always being the minority of extremists who would set the tone. That being said, I think it is not just dangerous, but borderline-suicidal for Europeans to tolerate a religion with such long and pronounced history of violent extremism as Islam within their lands, most migrants hailing exactly from regions where Islam is the majority religion.

---

My own country has a long and unpleasant history with mass immigration, namely the ethnic Russian minority (actually a majority in many of the big cities) that were sent here en masse during the Soviet era to work in heavy industry. Many have integrated reasonably well, but there are also many more who have little love, loyalty or respect for their host country, being outspokenly loyal to Russia, which obviously doesn't hesitate to take full political advantage of them.

The damage that the presence of such a large minority of disloyal elements can do is amply evident in Crimea and the Donbass. If anything, it is these people rather than the Russian military that pose the greatest threat to the survival of my nation.

If my compatriots are having difficulty dealing with these unintegrable elements even though us and the Russians have lived side by side for centuries, more or less understand each other's mentality and know what to expect of each other, I simply don't see how it would be possible to successfuly integrate people with a completely-alien worldview and mindset, especially if they have little if any interest to integrate themselves.

---

And lastly, there is simply not enough resources for everyone, even in Europe. Youth unemployment and a culture of welfare-leeching is already a major problem in Western Europe as it is, and Europe's prosperity depends on cheap foreign resources and outsourced manufacture. It simply cannot support the huge influx of immigrants without collapsing it's own welfare system. Since there's few jobs to be found in the first place, the majority of migrants tend to be too undereducated and underskilled (by Western standards, at least) to have any hope of securing a decent job, the majority of them will consequently be doomed to a life of idleness and poverty, forcing many to turn to crime and making ideal recruitment material for extremists, and that's even by courteously assuming that the majority would prefer to have a honest job rather than leech on welfare, which provides them with higher living standards than a lot of them could ever dream of back home. Since Europe cannot readily solve this problem already as it is, taking in any more migrants is contrary to any logic or common sense.

So as harsh and cruel as it may sound, Europe must close and secure it's borders in the interest of it's own survival. In the Middle Ages, besiegers would often desolate the countryside in hopes that the destitute and homeless peasants would flee to the castle, be admitted and deplete it's food stores sooner. A compassionate castellan would admit them and consequently usually end up losing his castle to the enemy. A wise castellan would drive the peasants away at arrow-point, shooting some down to scare off the others, and with luck last long enough to have the siege relieved.

---

So even while people might be tempted to sympathize with the unfortunate outsiders making their way here, it is in their own best interests to turn them away - Fortress Europa already has too many mouths to feed.

[Nakena]

I need numbers. Statistics. Graphs. Charts. All that jazz.

This ain't /pol/ :^)

[New Grestin]

I need numbers. Statistics. Graphs. Charts. All that jazz.

This ain't /pol/ :^)

Oh, darling.

You must be new here.

[Torrocca]

IS, you've made a lot of points there and I'd really love to address them right now, but I need to get to sleeping. Keep an eye out, though, for I'll have a response concocted some hours from now.

I need numbers. Statistics. Graphs. Charts. All that jazz.

This ain't /pol/ :^)

Asking for numbers and evidence is being /pol/ now?

[Nakena]

Asking for numbers and evidence is being /pol/ now?

I am not throwing lot of links at People. It's not my style. Unless I do have actual numbers and claims, other stuff I just know and have assembled over the Years. I am not somebody who builds up it's post upon some Breitbart or Gawker articles.

Because there are certain people where I consider it a lost cause to even try to make them concede a point that goes against their pre-existing worldview.

You're free to reach your own conclusion what category you belong to.

Mef, just defend your point, and stop making assumptions on people you've barely ever interacted with before, like me.

Ah so you don't have any first hand expierence with the situation?

I do, and i am afraid that my muslim friends are getting caught in crossfire of the future civil war in europe.

If it wouldn be for that I could really care less about the whole situation, because then deporting all muslims would be the solution and i wouldn have to worry about the stupid politics of the establishment who're working towards that war to happen due sheer ideological insanity and stupidty.

[Torrocca]

I am not throwing lot of links at People. It's not my style. Unless I do have actual numbers and claims, other stuff I just know and have assembled over the Years. I am not somebody who builds up it's post upon some Breitbart or Gawker articles.

No, but you can build your argument off of actual evidence, and you can defend your point better with evidence that's been asked for. I didn't ask for biased Breitbart (ugh) or Gawker (ugh), just evidence. Is that too much to ask for?

Ah so you don't have any first hand expierence with the situation?

I do, and i am afraid that my muslim friends are getting caught in crossfire of the future civil war in europe.

If it wouldn be for that I could really care less about the whole situation, because then deporting all muslims would be the solution and i wouldn have to worry about the stupid politics of the establishment who're working towards that war to happen due sheer ideological insanity and stupidty.

Deporting all Muslims isn't a solution.

[AiliailiA]

Europe's attempts to deal with ethnic and religious tensions is what gave us words like "genocide" and "holocaust".

Do old habits really die hard?

*snip*

In fact, I'm pretty sure we have words like "holocaust" and "genocide" because Europeans came to regard this course of action and the particular instance of it to be rather abhorrent and distasteful.

That is, almost to a word, the riposte which occurred to me when I read Gallia-'s post. Seconded!

Europeans were also central to the establishment of the International Criminal Court where charges of genocide are tried. The US helped too, and didn't kill it as they could have, but they've pretty much walked away and that leaves the credit for that highest court of international law firmly with Europle.

(Europle is a typo, but it is maybe useful to my point so it can stay)

[Gravlen]

Then please, show us some relevant quotes from the report.

And get accused of and dismissed for alleged cherry picking, or regurgitating certain points in an exceedingly unfair way?

Yeah, fuck that.

So you refuse to attempt to back up your claim, referring instead generally to a 46 page pdf (which, I should note, doesn't mention religious affiliation, shows that the overwhelming majority of immigrants did not commit any offenses, shows that the rate of criminality among Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis (groups which are more likely to be refugees) are significantly lower compared to their share of the immigrant group, while the rate of criminality among Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian and Georgian (groups which are less likely to be refugees) were higher compared to their share of the group of immigrants, and generally shows declining criminal activity).

Your consession is noted.

[Nakena]

No, but you can build your argument off of actual evidence, and you can defend your point better with evidence that's been asked for. I didn't ask for biased Breitbart (ugh) or Gawker (ugh), just evidence. Is that too much to ask for?

I don't know to share years of collected expierence and knowledge (some if it acquired first hand) with a single link to some enlightening article who covers it all. I have neither a collection of links I could share.

Deporting all Muslims isn't a solution.

It's a solution. However one that will have extremly horrible consequences.

It's going to happen in the end. After a lot more of europeans die and tormented first however.

The current liberal politicians are being to blame for this ALL.

[Torrocca]

No, but you can build your argument off of actual evidence, and you can defend your point better with evidence that's been asked for. I didn't ask for biased Breitbart (ugh) or Gawker (ugh), just evidence. Is that too much to ask for?

I don't know to share years of collected expierence and knowledge (some if it acquired first hand) with a single link to some enlightening article who covers it all. I have neither a collection of links I could share.

Deporting all Muslims isn't a solution.

It's a solution. However one that will have extremly horrible consequences.

It's going to happen in the end. After a lot more of europeans die and tormented first however.

The current liberal politicians are being to blame for this ALL.

Well, apologies if I can't take your claim of experience at face value.

But, regardless, removal of all Muslims from Europe is known as genocide, and Europeans aren't very fond of that after a very specific event called World War Two.

[Genivaria]

They're quite obviously criminals and should be prosecuted.

[Torrocca]

They're quite obviously criminals and should be prosecuted.

Well, who, Gen? The pirates (yes) or the refugees/migrants (no)? Because apparently to some here, refugees and migrants are deserving of death for the simple crime of "wanting a better life".

[Ifreann]

That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

To the contrary. As matter of fact, big part of the reasons why things in Europe are not working out is that their societies and it's leaders are unwilling or unable to lay down the rules towards the muslim immigrants. Europe is perceived as weak, as prey. A place that can be blamed and entitlement demanded from.

And your assessment of the popular perception of Europe across a variety of societies and cultures in the Middle East and North Africa is based on what, exactly?

I don't know about your position, but now that I think of it, it seems to me that most people who say this sort of thing, that immigrants and refugees think we're weak and vulnerable, are people who themselves think that Europe is weak and vulnerable. Do they really know what Middle Easterners and North Africans think? Or are they just projecting their own values? Do you know? Or are you just projecting?

[Nakena]

Well, apologies if I can't take your claim of experience at face value.

Fair enough.

But, regardless, removal of all Muslims for Europe is known as genocide, and Europeans aren't very fond of that after a very specific event called World War Two.

It would actually be ethnic cleansing. But as said it's whats going to be happen in the end. It's the tragedy the majority of people doesn't wants to happen or doesn't even dares or is able to think or imagine about.

Once it got to that level, having the wrong name at the wrong checkpoint can be a death sentence. This happened before in Lebanon, Algeria and elsewhere.

[Genivaria]

They're quite obviously criminals and should be prosecuted.

Well, who, Gen? The pirates (yes) or the refugees/migrants (no)? Because apparently to some here, refugees and migrants are deserving of death for the simple crime of "wanting a better life".

I would the pirate would be obvious but I guess not, refugees are not criminals by definition.

[Mefpan]

Because there are certain people where I consider it a lost cause to even try to make them concede a point that goes against their pre-existing worldview.

You're free to reach your own conclusion what category you belong to.

Mef, just defend your point, and stop making assumptions on people you've barely ever interacted with before, like me.

The earlier linked PDF document, page 43.

Here's a quick cleaned up google-translate of the very rough summary at the end of the document, so you stop bitching at me.

"4 Overall assessment
From the beginning of 2015 until the end of the year In 2016, some 1.16 million people came as asylum seekers to Germany - approximately five times as many as in 2014. This strong influx of influence also had an effect in 2016 crime development both in the field of general criminality as well as in the field of politically motivated crime and led to a further increase in the number of cases in many areas of crime.

It is noticeable that the majority of migrants that arrived since the beginning of 2015 continue to have committed no offenses.

4.1 General criminality
The absolute number of crimes with at least one suspected immigrant grew in 2016, as already projected in the federal crime statistic of 2015, compared to the previous year (+42%, +87.266 crimes). In conjunction, the number of suspected immigrants increased by by 53% (+60,200 suspects). This development has to be seen relative to the immigration trend since 2015. Since then the number of migrants to Germany has risen sharply (+490% compared to the year 2014), which has an effect on the absolute number of immigrants committing criminal offenses.

The reasons for the continued increase in criminal offenses committed by immigrants in individual offenses are different and complex. To make sound statementsiIt is necessary to provide more comprehensive and differentiated research.
Overall, it is to be expected that the number of Immigrant offenders continues to grow.

4.2 Organized crime
With the exception of the area of ​​smuggling criminality no information was available in 2016 on organized crime in the context of immigration. Nevertheless, the control of organized crime also observes aspects that are in the context of immigration, such as the establishment of new organized crime structures, or the use of the refugee flow by organized crime structures for criminal activities.

4.3 Politically motivated crime
Asylum is an outstanding field of activity of the right scene in Germany. Alone when considering the total number of crimes of asylum seekers and the offenses against asylum seekers / refugees will make it clear that the
agitation with xenophobia affect the safety situation and increased numbers of crimes have been committed. Despite falling numbers, particularly in the second half of 2016, against the background of the upcoming election year of 2017 a renewed intensification of the theme and other criminal offenses have to be expected. Social discourse, political debates as well as media cover this issue since 2013 with varying intensity and frequency depending on notable events and developments.

Actions of the left scene, especially in form of offenses against the political right opponents, but also against police forces as well as politicians, continued. The increased public presence of the right scene, led to regular reactions from the left spectrum, violent clashes and an aggressive basic mood dominate meetings between the two groups. Below the threshold of violent crime are further offenses in the form of blockade actions, property damage and other forms of agitation.

The numbers of presumed (active or former) fighters or relatives / supporters / sympathizers of terrorist organizations or "Islamist-motivated war criminals" to be in Germany Increased. This trend will also probably continue. The number of reports on various events In the main countries of Syria and Iraq by asylum seekers will continue to remain at a high level."

You should thank a certain unmentioned Frenchman, because he's the party who urged me to translate something out of there for you.

TL;DR ethnic tensions, general increase in criminal activity, projected increase in number of sympathizers for terrorist organizations, oh, and we're taking our first baby steps back to the left-right clusterfuck heydays of the Weimar Republic. I'm sure this is all worth the suicidal levels of compassion.