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Roman Emperors

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Best Roman Emperor

Augustus
38
27%
Tiberius
5
4%
Claudius
4
3%
Vespasian
5
4%
One of the Five Good Emperors
33
23%
Septimius Severus
2
1%
Diocletian
4
3%
Constantine the Great
30
21%
Julian the Apostate
5
4%
One of the ones no one cares about
15
11%
 
Total votes : 141

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Tue May 30, 2017 1:55 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:On what basis?

By any objective measure Julian was failure.

There are no objective measures without criteria, and any choice of criteria are subjective. I didn't specify the meaning of 'best' (and, in fact, phrased it inconsistently as 'favorite' in the OP and 'best' in the poll - mea culpa) for that very reason.
He was an Augustus for just over three years, and sole emperor for less than two. He was also politically incompetent.

His one great success was proving himself to be a better general than anyone anticipated, though it's worth stressing that he only reached the summit of unchallenged power because Constantius II died of natural causes on his way to depose Julian as Augustus of the West and named the latter - the sole surviving male member of his family - his successor.

While many of his attempted anti-corruption reforms were well-intentioned, his failure to acknowledge that the structure of the Empire had changed in the last 200 years led him to idolise and attempt to emulate an idealised government structure of the 2nd century. His short-sighted rigid adherence to his political ideology managed to rapidly alienate just about everyone who might have formed some sort of reliable power base. Even before his move to Antioch and his cack-handed (though again, almost certainly well-intentioned) attempt to deal with the Antiochian famine, he'd managed to systematically alienate just about everyone except his core support in the Western Army and a scattering of pagan philosophers - and that was before his failed religious reforms.

Those religious reforms, which is just about the only thing most people remember him for, were an abject failure. They not only continued to undermine core support in the Eastern Empire - by now by far the wealthiest and most powerful part of the Roman state - but vanished without a trace on his death. They weren't even embraced by the majority of pagans; his core support for his reforms seems to have been a tiny minority of Attican neoplatonists whose abstract ideas on paganism and attempts to co-opt some aspects of Christianity was rejected by most pagans, not least because 'paganism' wasn't a single religion or ideology. Attempting to make it so while imposing Christian discipline on its organisation was itself politically misguided because it likely alienated as many pagans as it did Christians.

His death was itself the direct result of spectacular political and military misjudgements. His plan for the invasion of Persia and capture of Ctesiphon was almost bizarrely hubristic. Leaving aside the total lack of provocation from the Sassanids, Julian could only rely on the Western army; his political incompetence had alienated the Eastern army, the officers of which were predominantly Christian, and which would inevitably bear the brunt of the workload for the invasion. His strategic decisions in the invasion were poor, leaving his army isolated deep within enemy territory, and unable to either besiege or storm Ctesiphon. His lack of caution and refusal to appoint the sort of bodyguard typical to post-Diocletian emperors led directly to his death during a Sassanid attack on the camp.

His reign was as brief, and as effective, as that of a transient soldier-emperor of the crisis of the third century. The only reason we remember him at all was because of the attempt to turn back the Christian tide and make his ascetic version of paganism the state religion

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Rather than seeing him as a transient soldier-emperor in the vein of the Illyrian clique or any number of fourth or fifth century coup successors, I see him as the last spark of a dying age.

As Hypatia of Alexandria is to the history of science and philosophy, Julian is to the history of the Roman Empire. He was great not because of what he achieved, but because of what he represented, or represents to us in the modern day. A final ember cast forth from the guttering fire, bright and brief and beautiful, regardless of the darkness that followed. Not that I think if Julian had succeeded in everything he'd set out to do that the Roman Empire would have RETURNED TO GLORIES LONG PAST, but let me have my poetic license here


Genuinely curious rather than attempting to be cute...

Why have you highlighted 'crisis of the third century' in bold and then made a comment about my making a mistake?

Is it that you think the comparison is essentially invalid, or are you claiming that there's a factual error in my use of 'crisis of the third century'? I don't want to respond until I've understood the objection.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue May 30, 2017 1:59 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:There are no objective measures without criteria, and any choice of criteria are subjective. I didn't specify the meaning of 'best' (and, in fact, phrased it inconsistently as 'favorite' in the OP and 'best' in the poll - mea culpa) for that very reason.

PROOF THAT EVEN GODS MAKE MISTAKES WHEN THEY WALK AMONGST MEN :p

Rather than seeing him as a transient soldier-emperor in the vein of the Illyrian clique or any number of fourth or fifth century coup successors, I see him as the last spark of a dying age.

As Hypatia of Alexandria is to the history of science and philosophy, Julian is to the history of the Roman Empire. He was great not because of what he achieved, but because of what he represented, or represents to us in the modern day. A final ember cast forth from the guttering fire, bright and brief and beautiful, regardless of the darkness that followed. Not that I think if Julian had succeeded in everything he'd set out to do that the Roman Empire would have RETURNED TO GLORIES LONG PAST, but let me have my poetic license here


Genuinely curious rather than attempting to be cute...

Why have you highlighted 'crisis of the third century' in bold and then made a comment about my making a mistake?

Is it that you think the comparison is essentially invalid, or are you claiming that there's a factual error in my use of 'crisis of the third century'? I don't want to respond until I've understood the objection.

I think at the time I read the statement as Julian being one of the emperors of the crisis of the third century rather than it being a comparison.
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Sanctissima
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Postby Sanctissima » Tue May 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Have to go with Trajan.

He was basically a healthier Augustus with a military background. All around a great emperor, and in my opinion the best one Rome ever had. Only things I can fault him on are not picking a successor and overplaying his hand in Parthia, but his wife Plotina quickly resolved the former, and in the latter he at least succeeded in annexing Armenia and thoroughly fucking over the Parthians for half a century.

All around a great guy, and it's a shame his reign didn't last longer.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Tue May 30, 2017 2:14 pm

CM, what did Julian attempt to do that would have changed much of the Roman Empire's fortunes to warrant that grand poetic license? A few administrative reforms? His religious reforms would have been pretty meaningless, considering the supposed decline of the Roman Empire started long before Christianity became the state religion.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue May 30, 2017 2:17 pm

Elagabalus was hilarious and thus my favorite. Anyways, Elagabalus is widely believed to be transgender. But Elagabalus wasn't in power long enough to be anything more than mediocre at best. So the best Roman Emperor? I go with one of the 5 Good Emperors not named Marcus Aurelius for the reason that Marcus Aurelius named his son as successor. And as some people believe, the commode wasn't named for Commodus.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue May 30, 2017 2:18 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:CM, what did Julian attempt to do that would have changed much of the Roman Empire's fortunes to warrant that grand poetic license? A few administrative reforms? His religious reforms would have been pretty meaningless, considering the supposed decline of the Roman Empire started long before Christianity became the state religion.

As I said:
As Hypatia of Alexandria is to the history of science and philosophy, Julian is to the history of the Roman Empire. He was great not because of what he achieved, but because of what he represented, or represents to us in the modern day. A final ember cast forth from the guttering fire, bright and brief and beautiful, regardless of the darkness that followed. Not that I think if Julian had succeeded in everything he'd set out to do that the Roman Empire would have RETURNED TO GLORIES LONG PAST, but let me have my poetic license here


I like Julian because he was a fish out of temporal water, because he chose to adapt his ideals to a changing world rather than abandon them, because he was a philosopher-king and a warrior in an age of emperors who led politically and followed spiritually, not because I think he was a SAVIOR OF ROME whose empire-changing life was tragically cut short.

I would think you of all people would appreciate that. :p
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Tue May 30, 2017 2:21 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:CM, what did Julian attempt to do that would have changed much of the Roman Empire's fortunes to warrant that grand poetic license? A few administrative reforms? His religious reforms would have been pretty meaningless, considering the supposed decline of the Roman Empire started long before Christianity became the state religion.

As I said:
As Hypatia of Alexandria is to the history of science and philosophy, Julian is to the history of the Roman Empire. He was great not because of what he achieved, but because of what he represented, or represents to us in the modern day. A final ember cast forth from the guttering fire, bright and brief and beautiful, regardless of the darkness that followed. Not that I think if Julian had succeeded in everything he'd set out to do that the Roman Empire would have RETURNED TO GLORIES LONG PAST, but let me have my poetic license here


I like Julian because he was a fish out of temporal water, because he chose to adapt his ideals to a changing world rather than abandon them, because he was a philosopher-king and a warrior in an age of emperors who led politically and followed spiritually, not because I think he was a SAVIOR OF ROME whose empire-changing life was tragically cut short.

I would think you of all people would appreciate that. :p

But even then, that's not a defense to put an objectively bad Emperor whose reign was disastrous for the Empire in the top ten list. I have the same objection to having him in that I would have for Arch suggesting Heraclius; however, Heraclius would actually be a better suggestion, because he at least saved the Empire from unmitigated disaster once.
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EnragedMaldivians
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Tue May 30, 2017 3:13 pm

Mehmed II. :twisted:

Actually no, I'll go with Claudius. I'm a sucker for an underdog coming out on top story.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm

Are we counting Justinian as Roman here?
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The Sauganash Union
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Postby The Sauganash Union » Tue May 30, 2017 3:38 pm

Probably Augustus because he ended the 30-year civil war and just went out conquering the fuck out of everyone.
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EnragedMaldivians
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Postby EnragedMaldivians » Tue May 30, 2017 3:47 pm

Genivaria wrote:Are we counting Justinian as Roman here?


Why wouldn't he be? The Eastern Roman empire had its roots in a legitimate administarive division of the Roman empire as a whole. He's as much a Roman as Diocletian.
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Vallermoore
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vallermoore » Tue May 30, 2017 3:50 pm

Augustus was the best and the most talented of the Roman Emperors in my view.

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Postby Sovaal » Tue May 30, 2017 4:15 pm

Romulous Augustulus, obviously. :p
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Postby Glorious Terran Empire » Tue May 30, 2017 8:47 pm

Augustus as always, since he made the Empire, but I would argue that Justinian the Great was the greatest Emperor of the Byzantine period, perhaps greater than Constantine, due to his near-legendary reconquest of Africa, his retaking of Iberian colonies, and even taking Rome back for the Empire.
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Postby MERIZoC » Tue May 30, 2017 8:58 pm

As a lifelong proponent of equine governance, I throw my support behind Caligula. Glory to Incitatus.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed May 31, 2017 1:06 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Genuinely curious rather than attempting to be cute...

Why have you highlighted 'crisis of the third century' in bold and then made a comment about my making a mistake?

Is it that you think the comparison is essentially invalid, or are you claiming that there's a factual error in my use of 'crisis of the third century'? I don't want to respond until I've understood the objection.

I think at the time I read the statement as Julian being one of the emperors of the crisis of the third century rather than it being a comparison.


So you concede the mistake wasn't mine, youngling.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed May 31, 2017 1:15 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:Anyways, Elagabalus is widely believed to be transgender.


'Widely'?

No, not really.

It's a minority - though by no means fringe - hypothesis that's gained some currency in the last 50 years, but I'd struggle to call it 'widespread'. The central problem lies in applying late 20th/early 21st-century conceptions of sexual identity to unreliable propagandist reports of Elagabalus 1800 years after his death. It remains unclear as to the extent that his 'depravity' was reported factually or was designed to discredit his grandmother and aunt - the actual powers behind the throne - and the entire concept of Eastern 'decadence'.

So I'd take any attempt to claim Elagabalus as some form of proto-modern LGBT+ historical figure with a fairly large pinch of salt.

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San Marlindo
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Postby San Marlindo » Wed May 31, 2017 1:21 pm

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Are we counting Justinian as Roman here?


Why wouldn't he be? The Eastern Roman empire had its roots in a legitimate administarive division of the Roman empire as a whole. He's as much a Roman as Diocletian.


So where do we draw the line as to where the Eastern Empire ceased to be effectively "Roman"? Or do we not draw said line at all?

I mean, can anybody honestly say Justinian was more of a Roman emperor than Leo III? Or Basil II? The empress Irene of Charlemagne's day? Heraclius? Or for that matter, any of the Komnenian rulers?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed May 31, 2017 1:22 pm

San Marlindo wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Why wouldn't he be? The Eastern Roman empire had its roots in a legitimate administarive division of the Roman empire as a whole. He's as much a Roman as Diocletian.


So where do we draw the line as to where the Eastern Empire ceased to be effectively "Roman"? Or do we not draw said line at all?

I mean, can anybody honestly say Justinian was more of a Roman emperor than Leo III? Or Basil II? The empress Irene of Charlemagne's day? Heraclius? Or for that matter, any of the Komnenian rulers?


I'd say that depends on what you consider "Roman".
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed May 31, 2017 1:40 pm

San Marlindo wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Why wouldn't he be? The Eastern Roman empire had its roots in a legitimate administarive division of the Roman empire as a whole. He's as much a Roman as Diocletian.


So where do we draw the line as to where the Eastern Empire ceased to be effectively "Roman"? Or do we not draw said line at all?


1204; all other dates are a matter of subjective preference.

Up until the Fourth Crusade, there was a clear line of constitutional and institutional development from the deposition of Tarquin II through to the sack of Constantinople. This applies to both civic and army institutions. The Fourth Crusade destroyed almost all of those evolved institutions along with any real sense of institutional continuity in the history of the Roman state.

For the sake of convenience, we consider the 'restored' empire of 1261-1453 as being a continuation of the 'Byzantine' Empire, but it was realistically the new institutions of 'Empire' of Nicaea taking on the mantle of the defunct Eastern Roman Empire rather than a genuine continuation of the pre-1204 Roman state.

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Wed May 31, 2017 1:56 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
San Marlindo wrote:
So where do we draw the line as to where the Eastern Empire ceased to be effectively "Roman"? Or do we not draw said line at all?

I mean, can anybody honestly say Justinian was more of a Roman emperor than Leo III? Or Basil II? The empress Irene of Charlemagne's day? Heraclius? Or for that matter, any of the Komnenian rulers?


I'd say that depends on what you consider "Roman".

Well, the byzantines considered themsleves to be Romans, and had the history and military might to back that claim.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Wed May 31, 2017 1:58 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:CM, what did Julian attempt to do that would have changed much of the Roman Empire's fortunes to warrant that grand poetic license? A few administrative reforms? His religious reforms would have been pretty meaningless, considering the supposed decline of the Roman Empire started long before Christianity became the state religion.


Allowing tolerance for all sects of the growing Christian religion was actually a huge deal. A serious concern for the Christain orthodoxy trying to fight off Arianism, etc.

His goal in doing so was to allow the Christian sects to eat each other alive. Often glossed over is in historical descriptions of early Christianity is its tendency towards mob violence. Julian witnessed this firsthand, when he visited a pagan temple in disrepair, removed the Christian martyrs's bodied who were buried there (giving them to a church), and then hearing reports after he left the city of the temple being burned down by Christians. Had the tolerance lasted (meaning, had Julian ruled longer than he did), it is not unlikely that this sort of violence would have destroyed the Christian movement at the time.

His attempt to rebuild the Jewish temple would have greatly shifted Jewish attitudes towards the Roman Empire. It was "destroyed by an earthquake" during reconstruction, a likely euphemism for Christian vandalism.

Taking state funds away from churches seriously hurt their political influence, and effectively barring Christians from education meant less learned Christians capable of mounting a coherent, tactical resistance.

What Julian did in his few years in power is fairly impressive for someone without a political/military background. What he attempted to do would have made him one of the greatest Roman emperors. It was a plan for long term, slow reversal of Christianization. I think the only elaborate plan to resist Christian influence comparable would be Iceland.
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San Marlindo
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Postby San Marlindo » Wed May 31, 2017 2:01 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
San Marlindo wrote:
So where do we draw the line as to where the Eastern Empire ceased to be effectively "Roman"? Or do we not draw said line at all?


1204; all other dates are a matter of subjective preference.

Up until the Fourth Crusade, there was a clear line of constitutional and institutional development from the deposition of Tarquin II through to the sack of Constantinople. This applies to both civic and army institutions. The Fourth Crusade destroyed almost all of those evolved institutions along with any real sense of institutional continuity in the history of the Roman state.

For the sake of convenience, we consider the 'restored' empire of 1261-1453 as being a continuation of the 'Byzantine' Empire, but it was realistically the new institutions of 'Empire' of Nicaea taking on the mantle of the defunct Eastern Roman Empire rather than a genuine continuation of the pre-1204 Roman state.


I have to ask: were the civic and military institutions of Nicaea really so different from those once maintained from Constantinople?

From my perspective it appears as if the Eastern Empire was not entirely dismantled in 1204, merely reduced in size to a bi-fractured rump state (Nicaea and Epirus; Trebizond seems to have broken away before the Fourth Crusade actually succeeded), the first of which later retook Constantinople.

However you seem to be implying that Nicaea was an entirely separate geopolitical entity with little if any institutional coherence with the pre-1204 imperial state.
Last edited by San Marlindo on Wed May 31, 2017 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Wed May 31, 2017 2:19 pm

San Marlindo wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
1204; all other dates are a matter of subjective preference.

Up until the Fourth Crusade, there was a clear line of constitutional and institutional development from the deposition of Tarquin II through to the sack of Constantinople. This applies to both civic and army institutions. The Fourth Crusade destroyed almost all of those evolved institutions along with any real sense of institutional continuity in the history of the Roman state.

For the sake of convenience, we consider the 'restored' empire of 1261-1453 as being a continuation of the 'Byzantine' Empire, but it was realistically the new institutions of 'Empire' of Nicaea taking on the mantle of the defunct Eastern Roman Empire rather than a genuine continuation of the pre-1204 Roman state.


I have to ask: were the civic and military institutions of Nicaea really so different from those once maintained from Constantinople?


Yes.

It's after 10:00 pm here, so I lack the time to give a detailed analysis, but if you read the relevant chapters of Warren Treadgold's The History of the Byzantine State and Society, the breakdown in continuity becomes much clearer. Just quoting quickly from pages 813-814...

The Fourth Crusade shattered a tradition of unified government in the Aegean Basin that dated back to the Roman Republic, and wrecked institutions that were as old as Diocletian and Constantine I. Since the Crusaders failed to conquer the whole Byzantine Empire, they never replaced its institutions with a single system of their own. Because the Byzantines failed to reconquer everything they had lost, or even suppress all of the Latin States and the Empire of Trebizond, they were unable to restore the old system.


The rest of Chapter 26 further develops the theme, outlining just how different the Empire of Nicaea and the restored post-1261 Empire were institutionally from their pre-1204 predecessor (allowing for attempts to recreate some of the pre-1204 institutions, such as Michael VIII's restoration of the Patriarchal School).

However, institutions are not the same thing as ideology. Right up until its final hours, the post-Constantine I Byzantine Empire believed itself to be the one true ecumenical Christian Empire in association with the one true church. Other Christian princes might regrettably not recognise the supremacy of the Roman Emperor in Constantinople, and many of those princes had equally regrettably fallen into heresy and schism; but the Byzantines - in their conception of the world - knew better. Whatever the institutional transformations, that much remained constant.

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Nocturnalis
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nocturnalis » Wed May 31, 2017 2:34 pm

>not including Repubican Rome or, gods forbid, the Roman Kingdom in this
Tarquinius Priscus and Servius Tullius must be spinning in their graves, wherever they are.

As for emperors, I'd have to go with Trajan or Marcus Aurelius as my favourites, both great leaders in their own rights. Then again, Marcus Aurelius did give us Commodus, instead of going with the long tradition of adopting an heir. If we're including Eastern Emperors, then Basil II and/or Alexios I.

Cosmopoles wrote:I can't decide between Heliogabalus during their transgender hooker roleplaying phase and the floating head of Justinian.

If there was any emperor that outright deserved to get brutally murdered by his own guards, it was Elagabalus.

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