White supremacist murders two in Portland

[Daeseong]

It's not the same as systematic ethnic genocide to perpetrate the idea of a "master race," but let's keep detracting from the actual issue at hand because it's more convenient to attack the failings of other ideologies than address what should actually be discussed.

I'm pretty sure if the death toll is larger by an order of magnitude, the reasons of both don't matter as much, and just the raw numbers.

Terrorism doesn't matter because the death toll is relatively small.

[Proctopeo]

We're both speaking from opinions here, you know.

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.

Yes, it is. But, fine, believe whatever you wish.

[Uxupox]

We're both speaking from opinions here, you know.

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.

It doesn't make it better at all. It makes it look like complete incompetent ideology that only prolongs people suffering and causes massive numbers of dead just like it's complete opposite Nazism.

[Torrocca]

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.

Yes, it is. But, fine, believe whatever you wish.

I'm pretty sure if the death toll is larger by an order of magnitude, the reasons of both don't matter as much, and just the raw numbers.

Terrorism doesn't matter because the death toll is relatively small.

Sure thing, Proct.

[Irona]

If you going to call the Holodomor genocide then you have to accept that the free market capitalism of the British Empire killed millions more in exactly the same way.

For instance-

Irish Potato Famine: 1 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
Indian Famines: 20 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B ... ne_of_1770 + https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalisa_famine

These were famines that were caused by the economic ideological commitments of the state and that were ignored because of either ideological or racial reasons.

Nobody denies that the British Empire fucked India up on the other hand.

Yeah they do. Just go to the UK pol forum and ask. A lot of people think we imperialism had a positive effect on India.

[Gallia-]

I think the prevailing theory was that it was intentionally prolonged by the government.

As is the prevailing theory about the Irish Potato famine and Indian Famines under the Raj yet we don't accuse the British Empire and free market capitalism of genocide.

Yes we do?

[Torrocca]

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.

It doesn't make it better at all. It makes it look like complete incompetent ideology that only prolongs people suffering and causes massive numbers of dead just like it's complete opposite Nazism.

When you misinterpret it as Communism when it wasn't actually Communism, sure it makes Communism look bad. But when you actually look into it, you can see it's not actually Communism.

Whereas on the other hand, you can see exactly what Nazism is and what exactly it did. The same can be said of Fascism and White Supremacy, actually, because of what their beliefs are and what they actually fucking do. They're actually a problem because what they were is now what they are and is what they will continue to be.

But, you know, let's just keep ignoring that and saying, "b-b-but Communism!" because that's somehow remotely relevant to the actual problem at hand here.

[Proctopeo]

Yes, it is. But, fine, believe whatever you wish.

Terrorism doesn't matter because the death toll is relatively small.

Sure thing, Proct.

I specifically ignored that post because it's an example of the phenomenon of "understanding, but disregarding the actual meaning to make an argument that is easier to attack".

[Torrocca]

Sure thing, Proct.

I specifically ignored that post because it's an example of the phenomenon of "understanding, but disregarding the actual meaning to make an argument that is easier to attack".

You specifically said that reasons don't matter because they're a matter of opinion. What are you even trying to get at?

[New haven america]

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.

It doesn't make it better at all. It makes it look like complete incompetent ideology that only prolongs people suffering and causes massive numbers of dead just like it's complete opposite Nazism.

Except those past governments weren't communist, they said they were communist, and then completely went against the tenants of communism.

Hence, your argument is pointless.

[Proctopeo]

I specifically ignored that post because it's an example of the phenomenon of "understanding, but disregarding the actual meaning to make an argument that is easier to attack".

You specifically said that reasons don't matter because they're a matter of opinion. What are you even trying to get at?

I specifically said that whether or not reasons matter is a matter of opinion.

[The Blaatschapen]

Ugh, another white terrorist.

[Torrocca]

You specifically said that reasons don't matter because they're a matter of opinion. What are you even trying to get at?

I specifically said that whether or not reasons matter is a matter of opinion.

And it's actually not a matter of opinion because reasons do matter; if they didn't then how the fuck would we ever actually address a problem?

[Proctopeo]

I specifically said that whether or not reasons matter is a matter of opinion.

And it's actually not a matter of opinion because reasons do matter; if they didn't then how the fuck would we ever actually address a problem?

It is a matter of opinion, at least when the death counts between two ideologies related to historical regimes are an order of magnitude apart.

[Uxupox]

It doesn't make it better at all. It makes it look like complete incompetent ideology that only prolongs people suffering and causes massive numbers of dead just like it's complete opposite Nazism.

Except those past governments weren't communist, they said they were communist, and then completely went against the tenants of communism.

Hence, your argument is pointless.

Different doctrines of communism exist all with different subsequent schools of thought.

[New haven america]

Ugh, another white terrorist.

And of course it had to be in Portland...

[Torrocca]

And it's actually not a matter of opinion because reasons do matter; if they didn't then how the fuck would we ever actually address a problem?

It is a matter of opinion, at least when the death counts between two ideologies related to historical regimes are an order of magnitude apart.

Yeah, no it's not, especially not when the reasoning behind one is, "we're genociding people who aren't like us and we'll keep doing it so long as we're not stopped!" and the reasoning behind the other is, "this is a fucking awful famine caused by shitty policy but it was unintentional!" Unless you propose that the result of both, death, is somehow solved through the same exact means?

[Uxupox]

Nobody denies that the British Empire fucked India up on the other hand.

Yeah they do. Just go to the UK pol forum and ask. A lot of people think we imperialism had a positive effect on India.

Are you really using a forum known for its nationalistic tendencies as a measure of excellence? Really?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Torroca, if communism supports the dissolution of a state, how can communism even be practiced?

[Kubumba Tribe]

It is a matter of opinion, at least when the death counts between two ideologies related to historical regimes are an order of magnitude apart.

Yeah, no it's not, especially not when the reasoning behind one is, "we're genociding people who aren't like us and we'll keep doing it so long as we're not stopped!" and the reasoning behind the other is, "this is a fucking awful famine caused by shitty policy but it was unintentional!" Unless you propose that the result of both, death, is somehow solved through the same exact means?

Millions of people died in the famines. Communist leaders surely could've done something about it.

[Proctopeo]

It is a matter of opinion, at least when the death counts between two ideologies related to historical regimes are an order of magnitude apart.

Yeah, no it's not, especially not when the reasoning behind one is, "we're genociding people who aren't like us and we'll keep doing it so long as we're not stopped!" and the reasoning behind the other is, "this is a fucking awful famine caused by shitty policy but it was unintentional!" Unless you propose that the result of both, death, is somehow solved through the same exact means?

That's simply your opinion.

[New haven america]

Except those past governments weren't communist, they said they were communist, and then completely went against the tenants of communism.

Hence, your argument is pointless.

Different doctrines of communism exist all with different subsequent schools of thought.

Not really.

Anything that doesn't follow: A stateless, classless society where workers own the means of production, isn't really communist.

Hell, by having states, they already go against the first tenant.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Yeah, no it's not, especially not when the reasoning behind one is, "we're genociding people who aren't like us and we'll keep doing it so long as we're not stopped!" and the reasoning behind the other is, "this is a fucking awful famine caused by shitty policy but it was unintentional!" Unless you propose that the result of both, death, is somehow solved through the same exact means?

That's simply your opinion.

An opinion with evidence becomes a fact.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Different doctrines of communism exist all with different subsequent schools of thought.

Not really.

Anything that doesn't follow: A stateless, classless society where workers own the means of production, aren't communist.

Hell, by having states, they already go against the first tenant.

Looks to me that communism commits suicide.

[Daeseong]

Torroca, if communism supports the dissolution of a state, how can communism even be practiced?

Depends on your specific doctrinal beliefs. Communism has many variations.

Many during the Brezhnev era, for example, assumed that strengthening the state would eventually cause it to wither away (somehow). But I think that the essence is that a communist society would be built of free association, where the coercive forces of the state are not necessary.