White supremacist murders two in Portland

[Daeseong]

It's so obvious now. There was never a real communist state was there?

1. There's no such thing as a communist state
2. Nope. There have been attempts, but every single time, something has fucked up somewhere and turned the place into a dictatorship (Most common being a capitalist dictatorship)

Marxist-Leninism is almost inherently foredoomed to falling into dictatorship, however. Lenin's emphasis on party discipline and specialization made certain of that.

[Oldenfranck]

What a terrible incident. Now I know why many racists get excited when they hear that the Trump train is coming to town.

[Torrocca]

I wasn't talking about Nazism there, I was talking specifically about how Fascists took Communism and twisted it for their gains and power and how everyone likes to conveniently ignore it when saying, "b-b-but Communism killed people too!" Ignoring that blatant "whataboutism", saying stupid shit like this literally just ignores what happened in these "Communist" societies (hint: they weren't Communist because Communism calls for the dissolution of the state).

But going back to that whataboutism, it seems very funny that everyone seems to want to ignore intentional, systematic genocide (emphasis on that because it's pretty fucking important) and even remotely try to compare it to deaths from famine. There is no comparison because famine is NOT intentional murder, but genocide literally is. It seems that systematic murder isn't important though, because while that's literally a core value of Nazism, "it's okay because they didn't kill that many people so let's let them have free speech!" No. Nazis don't deserve free speech, because it preaches murder and genocide. It's a catalyst for events like what happened in Portland and many other events, most notably the Holocaust. Nazism is literally a plague on humanity.

Well, I mean, there was the Holodomor. An intentional famine with a death toll on par with the Holocaust: 7-10 million for the Holodomor and 6-11 for the Holocaust.

It wasn't necessarily intentional, but it was mostly ignored until it was too late (as per the first paragraph).

[Aelex]

Because the Soviet Union, a state that pretended to be Communist, actually ever practiced Communist ideals. Despite, y'know, Communism calling for the dissolution of the state.

Couldn't help but think of this gif. Now, I wouldn't be as harsh as call said system "retarded" but one can't help but to notice a pattern.

[Kash Island]

Well, I mean, there was the Holodomor. An intentional famine with a death toll on par with the Holocaust: 7-10 million for the Holodomor and 6-11 for the Holocaust.

It wasn't necessarily intentional, but it was mostly ignored until it was too late (as per the first paragraph).

It wasn't intentional?

lol I thought holocaust denial was something only nazis did.

[Torrocca]

It wasn't necessarily intentional, but it was mostly ignored until it was too late (as per the first paragraph).

It wasn't intentional?

lol I thought holocaust denial was something only nazis did.

Did you even read my source?

[Kubumba Tribe]

This has a lot to do with Al-Islam for some people. And there could be a correlation to the islamophobic attacks and the Trump election.

That is certainly a point one can make, but discussing Islam in and of itself and the 2016 election in and of itself does not really correlate to the stabbing in a manner that supports a point that actually relates back to the stabbing, in and of itself.

Points made.

[Kash Island]

It wasn't intentional?

lol I thought holocaust denial was something only nazis did.

Did you even read my source?

Why bother, you have said that you want to erase greed from humanity(which is impossible barring some freakish genetic experiment to make us drone)

your logic or sources attempting to support it would make no sense.

[Proctopeo]

Well, I mean, there was the Holodomor. An intentional famine with a death toll on par with the Holocaust: 7-10 million for the Holodomor and 6-11 for the Holocaust.

It wasn't necessarily intentional, but it was mostly ignored until it was too late (as per the first paragraph).

It's also recognized by many countries as a genocide against Ukranians done by the Soviets, and it was certainly not a natural event.

[Kubumba Tribe]

SHE! Christian's Facebook profile identifies herself as female.

So a transgender alt-left anti-establishment racist white supremacist who voted for bernie sanders and wants to genocide jews and create a ethno-white superstate and who believes zionist jews control the world and also is a Fascist?

Actually, she could be an actual woman.

[Torrocca]

Did you even read my source?

Why bother, you have said that you want to erase greed from humanity(which is impossible barring some freakish genetic experiment to make us drone)

your logic or sources attempting to support it would make no sense.

If you can't even be assed to read a source given to you, there's no point in entertaining your logic of, "well if Nazism should be banned, so should Communism because waaah they're dirty evil Commies with no morals or anything!"

I have genuine, evidence-backed reasons for wanting to silence Nazism, Fascism, White Supremacism, etc. across the world, in part due to incidents like this recent Portland stabbing. What do you have?

[Torrocca]

It wasn't necessarily intentional, but it was mostly ignored until it was too late (as per the first paragraph).

It's also recognized by many countries as a genocide against Ukranians done by the Soviets, and it was certainly not a natural event.

Yes, but going into further detail, you can see that there's more to it than just some systematic attempt at eradicating the Ukrainians; things like industrialization and collectivization also played their hand in causing the famine. There's obviously speculation that Stalin might have caused some of it to quell Ukrainian nationalism and I don't deny that, but there's more than one factor in play here. Unlike this, however, the Nazis were literally waging a war of extermination against non-Aryans; what they did still even outweighs the Holodomor.

[Irona]

I wasn't talking about Nazism there, I was talking specifically about how Fascists took Communism and twisted it for their gains and power and how everyone likes to conveniently ignore it when saying, "b-b-but Communism killed people too!" Ignoring that blatant "whataboutism", saying stupid shit like this literally just ignores what happened in these "Communist" societies (hint: they weren't Communist because Communism calls for the dissolution of the state).

But going back to that whataboutism, it seems very funny that everyone seems to want to ignore intentional, systematic genocide (emphasis on that because it's pretty fucking important) and even remotely try to compare it to deaths from famine. There is no comparison because famine is NOT intentional murder, but genocide literally is. It seems that systematic murder isn't important though, because while that's literally a core value of Nazism, "it's okay because they didn't kill that many people so let's let them have free speech!" No. Nazis don't deserve free speech, because it preaches murder and genocide. It's a catalyst for events like what happened in Portland and many other events, most notably the Holocaust. Nazism is literally a plague on humanity.

Well, I mean, there was the Holodomor. An intentional famine with a death toll on par with the Holocaust: 7-10 million for the Holodomor and 6-11 for the Holocaust.

If you going to call the Holodomor genocide then you have to accept that the free market capitalism of the British Empire killed millions more in exactly the same way.

For instance-

Irish Potato Famine: 1 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
Indian Famines: 20 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B ... ne_of_1770 + https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalisa_famine

These were famines that were caused by the economic ideological commitments of the state and that were ignored because of either ideological or racial reasons.

[Daeseong]

This is patently incorrect.

Though it's true that not all fascists were Nazis - and thus were not necessarily antisemites or eugenicists - fascism is inherently racist - as compared to right-wing authoritarianism. The defining feature of fascism literally was stressing one's national identity and this justified conquest as a necessary evil in a macrocosm of international Darwinism.

Racism, as defined by Oxford's online dictionary, is to antagonize against a person or group based on his or her nationality or racial identity. Fascism literally and inextricably advocates for this as a part of its very defining ethos. Palingenetic millenarianism and ultranationalism both inherently exalt race as defining features of a national rejuvenation, and these concepts were inherent to fascism as a whole - not just Nazism.

And then you have Nietzsche, but he should speak for himself.

oh i didn't know french was a race or Taiwanese is also a race....da fuck world we living in.

Though it is true race =/= ethnicity generally - with some exceptions - ethnicities comprise a race. And the line is blurry in any case because race is inherently a social construct, as is ethnicity.

But let's not dabble in semantics. Fascists like Mussolini and Franco both are known to have spoken of race and the superiority of certain races in multiple occassions. for example, in Italian-Germanic discourse, talk of the alpine race vs. the nordic one (for example) was widespread. Proto-fascists writers and thinkers have all discussed, the various European races, the superiority of certain races over others, etc. Maurras, for example, spoke often of race. Bergson also expressed extremely racist views though I'm not entirely certain if he delved heavily into racial sciences or not.

Here's the thing: since from its conception, the thinkers and ideas that contributed to the development of fascism - and not necessarily Nazism - dabbled extensively in racial science and studies of different ethnicities and the relative superiority of certain races over others. This is, by definition, racist.

So to conclude, yes, fascism as an ideology has its historical and ideological roots in racist beliefs. Perhaps modern fascists aren't - I don't keep up with skinheads - but in that case, they have abandoned the crucial founding tenets of their ideology.

[Proctopeo]

It's also recognized by many countries as a genocide against Ukranians done by the Soviets, and it was certainly not a natural event.

Yes, but going into further detail, you can see that there's more to it than just some systematic attempt at eradicating the Ukrainians; things like industrialization and collectivization also played their hand in causing the famine. There's obviously speculation that Stalin might have caused some of it to quell Ukrainian nationalism and I don't deny that, but there's more than one factor in play here. Unlike this, however, the Nazis were literally waging a war of extermination against non-Aryans; what they did still even outweighs the Holodomor.

We're about to go in circles here, so I'm just going to call it off here and refer to the hundred million dead again.

[Uxupox]

Well, I mean, there was the Holodomor. An intentional famine with a death toll on par with the Holocaust: 7-10 million for the Holodomor and 6-11 for the Holocaust.

If you going to call the Holodomor genocide then you have to accept that the free market capitalism of the British Empire killed millions more in exactly the same way.

For instance-

Irish Potato Famine: 1 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
Indian Famines: 20 million dead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B ... ne_of_1770 + https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalisa_famine

These were famines that were caused by the economic ideological commitments of the state and that were ignored because of either ideological or racial reasons.

Nobody denies that the British Empire fucked India up on the other hand.

[Torrocca]

Yes, but going into further detail, you can see that there's more to it than just some systematic attempt at eradicating the Ukrainians; things like industrialization and collectivization also played their hand in causing the famine. There's obviously speculation that Stalin might have caused some of it to quell Ukrainian nationalism and I don't deny that, but there's more than one factor in play here. Unlike this, however, the Nazis were literally waging a war of extermination against non-Aryans; what they did still even outweighs the Holodomor.

We're about to go in circles here, so I'm just going to call it off here and refer to the hundred million dead again.

It's not the same as systematic ethnic genocide to perpetrate the idea of a "master race," but let's keep detracting from the actual issue at hand because it's more convenient to attack the failings of other ideologies than address what should actually be discussed.

[Yagon]

Why bother, you have said that you want to erase greed from humanity(which is impossible barring some freakish genetic experiment to make us drone)

your logic or sources attempting to support it would make no sense.

Wait, so you see the only alternative to greed as being drones? There aren't maybe other states of motivation someone could think up?

Buckminster Fuller wasn't greedy, and he wasn't a drone. He was a creative genius whose work influenced numerous fields and created value for humanity so complex and varied, it would be impossible to quantify.

Bill Gates advocates that he and his fellow Billionaires should be taxed much higher, and he follows through by donating the majority of his wealth to the very poor. He's not greedy, and he's not a drone.

Some humans are complex enough that they don't just have a binary switch state of "greedy" or "drone". Some of them are neither of those things.

Back on topic, I do wonder if the perpetrator here had similar developmental experiences but in a different culture, he would've gravitated towards violence and attached it to whatever controversial attention-getting cause was at hand. He wanted meaning for his madness, to believe his murderous shit was part of a cause. In that, he was like the terrorists.

The women and the heroes who defended them were going about their lives, living peaceably with others. In that, they were like most Muslims and non-Muslims, most whites and non-whites.

[Vassenor]

It's also recognized by many countries as a genocide against Ukranians done by the Soviets, and it was certainly not a natural event.

Yes, but going into further detail, you can see that there's more to it than just some systematic attempt at eradicating the Ukrainians; things like industrialization and collectivization also played their hand in causing the famine. There's obviously speculation that Stalin might have caused some of it to quell Ukrainian nationalism and I don't deny that, but there's more than one factor in play here. Unlike this, however, the Nazis were literally waging a war of extermination against non-Aryans; what they did still even outweighs the Holodomor.

I think the prevailing theory was that it was intentionally prolonged by the government.

[Proctopeo]

We're about to go in circles here, so I'm just going to call it off here and refer to the hundred million dead again.

It's not the same as systematic ethnic genocide to perpetrate the idea of a "master race," but let's keep detracting from the actual issue at hand because it's more convenient to attack the failings of other ideologies than address what should actually be discussed.

I'm pretty sure if the death toll is larger by an order of magnitude, the reasons of both don't matter as much, and just the raw numbers.

[New Grestin]

It's kind of telling about our society that the most horrifying thing about these crimes isn't typically the crimes themselves, but the attempts by armchair pundits to try and use them for their own political narrative, something all too common from lowly NSG to the heights of mass media.

This was an appalling crime, and I hope that the man responsible is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. My condolences for those affected.

[Torrocca]

It's not the same as systematic ethnic genocide to perpetrate the idea of a "master race," but let's keep detracting from the actual issue at hand because it's more convenient to attack the failings of other ideologies than address what should actually be discussed.

I'm pretty sure if the death toll is larger by an order of magnitude, the reasons of both don't matter as much, and just the raw numbers.

Well actually the reasons do matter, but it's easier to ignore and address them and just look at raw numbers, because why actually talk about the actual problem?

[Irona]

Yes, but going into further detail, you can see that there's more to it than just some systematic attempt at eradicating the Ukrainians; things like industrialization and collectivization also played their hand in causing the famine. There's obviously speculation that Stalin might have caused some of it to quell Ukrainian nationalism and I don't deny that, but there's more than one factor in play here. Unlike this, however, the Nazis were literally waging a war of extermination against non-Aryans; what they did still even outweighs the Holodomor.

I think the prevailing theory was that it was intentionally prolonged by the government.

As is the prevailing theory about the Irish Potato famine and Indian Famines under the Raj yet we don't accuse the British Empire and free market capitalism of genocide.

[Proctopeo]

I'm pretty sure if the death toll is larger by an order of magnitude, the reasons of both don't matter as much, and just the raw numbers.

Well actually the reasons do matter, but it's easier to ignore and address them and just look at raw numbers, because why actually talk about the actual problem?

We're both speaking from opinions here, you know.

[Torrocca]

Well actually the reasons do matter, but it's easier to ignore and address them and just look at raw numbers, because why actually talk about the actual problem?

We're both speaking from opinions here, you know.

It's not an opinion to say that the reasons do matter, but sure let's just go with that.