The Manchester Attacks Megathread

[The Alma Mater]

On a happier note, the surviving but injured kids were cheered up a bit by the Queen:

[Aelex]

Because our society tried tolerating these "different" people before and it has failed miserably. The lot of these terrorists have been born and raised here in the civilized world, only to bite the hand that fed them, and their communities have done exactly zero to prevent that from happening, more often to the contrary. What more evidence would anyone need that their ilk have no place in a civilized society, their proper place being in the war-torn backwater shitholes they've made for themselves these days?

We've been trying for barely a generation. Society doesn't move very quickly.

TIL that the timespan going from the sixties to today is "barely a generation".
Are Englishmen a very particular specie of human-looking turtles (in which case 60 years may indeed be " barely a generation") or are you just trying to downplay the time since when this shit as been going on as a way to mitigate the failure of such policies of "tolerance"?

[The Alma Mater]

Because our society tried tolerating these "different" people before and it has failed miserably. The lot of these terrorists have been born and raised here in the civilized world, only to bite the hand that fed them, and their communities have done exactly zero to prevent that from happening, more often to the contrary. What more evidence would anyone need that their ilk have no place in a civilized society, their proper place being in the war-torn backwater shitholes they've made for themselves these days?

We've been trying for barely a generation. Society doesn't move very quickly.

5 years actually is quite a normal time to succeed with integration. 60 is a tad bit long.

[Aelex]

On a happier note, the surviving but injured kids were cheered up a bit by the Queen:
(Image)

Poor kids, one tragedy after another...

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

Why is the solution always "get rid of the people who are different"? Purge The Xenos is only a solution in 40K.

That is why I think Western nations ought to take no more chances with their sort and expel if not all, then certainly the majority of Muslims from their lands. They have, after all, time and time again proven that they cannot be trusted to live peacefully among civilized people.

How do you categorize "civilized people"? I expect for you it's involve something about them being white, supportive of imperialism, rich, and knowledgeable. Which bothers me since the Muslims are the same as well. Except for the imperialism, maybe. And skin color.

[Vassenor]

We've been trying for barely a generation. Society doesn't move very quickly.

5 years actually is quite a normal time to succeed with integration. 60 is a tad bit long.

Based upon what data?

[Alvecia]

We've been trying for barely a generation. Society doesn't move very quickly.

5 years actually is quite a normal time to succeed with integration. 60 is a tad bit long.

I don't know that I'd necessarily agree. It's a harsh but somewhat true statement that progress is made at about the same rate that older generations die off.

[Alvecia]

*duplicate

[Imperializt Russia]

On a happier note, the surviving but injured kids were cheered up a bit by the Queen:
(Image)

I was really, really confused for a second, because that girl looks distressingly like one of the dead. She makes me think of Georgina, an 18-year old student who was one of the first two confirmed dead.

[Aelex]

5 years actually is quite a normal time to succeed with integration. 60 is a tad bit long.

Based upon what data?

Historical one. Took us merely 30ish years to assimilate (and not merely integrate) more than 60% of our population to our official culture when most of said population barely even spoke our language.
And that was at a time where mass-medias didn't exist yet and we weren't even trying that hard to do it.

Given how hard we have been trying for 60 years and how little we achieved in term of actual integration, it seems rather obvious that the problem comes not from a lack of time or effort from the State but from an unwillingness of the population, a thing that is made even clearer when you compare Christians Arabs (who're for the crushing majority assimilated) and Muslims ones (who're the ones causing problems and self-segregating).

[Big Jim P]

That is why I think Western nations ought to take no more chances with their sort and expel if not all, then certainly the majority of Muslims from their lands. They have, after all, time and time again proven that they cannot be trusted to live peacefully among civilized people.

How do you categorize "civilized people"? I expect for you it's involve something about them being white, supportive of imperialism, rich, and knowledgeable. Which bothers me since the Muslims are the same as well. Except for the imperialism, maybe. And skin color.

Adhering to a faith that calls for the killing of infidels as a core tenant defines it fine for most people.

[Frank Zipper]

On a happier note, the surviving but injured kids were cheered up a bit by the Queen:

And her amazing comedy hat.

[Alvecia]

How do you categorize "civilized people"? I expect for you it's involve something about them being white, supportive of imperialism, rich, and knowledgeable. Which bothers me since the Muslims are the same as well. Except for the imperialism, maybe. And skin color.

Adhering to a faith that calls for the killing of infidels as a core tenant defines it fine for most people.

Fortunately most religious people are good at cherry picking which core tenants to follow

[Imperializt Russia]

We've been trying for barely a generation. Society doesn't move very quickly.

5 years actually is quite a normal time to succeed with integration. 60 is a tad bit long.

Based on what? Even looking at "european" immigrants to, say, the US, there's still generational lags between entry and "integration" of subsequent "Americans" of foreign descent. Diverse cities like New York still have distinct enclaves with cultural ties not strictly American, and those areas are a hundred years old or more.

In Britain, it is suggested that 2nd-generation (ie children of children of immigrants) are fairly well "integrated" from some backgrounds. This is a forty or fifty year lag between first migration, and 2nd-generation children reaching adulthood.
However, with the changing social climes and anti-immigration mood, it is also this generation which has been heavily targeted by extremists to radicalise them. It is the generation that finds it the easiest to consider themselves British, but also the most susceptible to the idea that based on "look around you" that Britain does not want them.

[Imperializt Russia]

How do you categorize "civilized people"? I expect for you it's involve something about them being white, supportive of imperialism, rich, and knowledgeable. Which bothers me since the Muslims are the same as well. Except for the imperialism, maybe. And skin color.

Adhering to a faith that calls for the killing of infidels as a core tenant defines it fine for most people.

It's in the bible too, y'know.

[Imperializt Russia]

Based upon what data?

Historical one. Took us merely 30ish years to assimilate (and not merely integrate) more than 60% of our population to our official culture when most of said population barely even spoke our language.
And that was at a time where mass-medias didn't exist yet and we weren't even trying that hard to do it.

Given how hard we have been trying for 60 years and how little we achieved in term of actual integration, it seems rather obvious that the problem comes not from a lack of time or effort from the State but from an unwillingness of the population, a thing that is made even clearer when you compare Christians Arabs (who're for the crushing majority assimilated) and Muslims ones (who're the ones causing problems and self-segregating).

Those people were ethnically French.
Just like the many principalities, duchies and sub-states that made up what was eventually a unified Germany were ethnically Germanic.

Even though the cultures were not the same, there was significant sharing, due to proximity, and the language not too dissimilar.
It's not comparable.

[Big Jim P]

Adhering to a faith that calls for the killing of infidels as a core tenant defines it fine for most people.

It's in the bible too, y'know.

Ja, but you don't see christians or jews committing these acts very often, now do you?

[Alvecia]

It's in the bible too, y'know.

Ja, but you don't see christians or jews committing these acts very often, now do you?

Not in the West. They're still burning witches in Africa.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's in the bible too, y'know.

Ja, but you don't see christians or jews committing these acts very often, now do you?

I know Kony 2012 was a pretty pathetic social movement that achieved nothing, but it was still referring to an actual thing.

Some Christian countries in Africa also carry the death penalty for homosexuality, something that westerners love to complain about in Islam (even though the number of middle eastern countries that actually have that penalty more or less match up with the number in Africa). Kind of worrying since these laws have, on occasion, been passed and supported by American Christian leaders or Christian politicians.

[Big Jim P]

Ja, but you don't see christians or jews committing these acts very often, now do you?

I know Kony 2012 was a pretty pathetic social movement that achieved nothing, but it was still referring to an actual thing.

Some Christian countries in Africa also carry the death penalty for homosexuality, something that westerners love to complain about in Islam (even though the number of middle eastern countries that actually have that penalty more or less match up with the number in Africa). Kind of worrying since these laws have, on occasion, been passed and supported by American Christian leaders or Christian politicians.

I am not too fond of christianity either, but when they start attacking innocents anywhere near the frequency of radical muslims, please be sure to let us know.

[Alvecia]

I know Kony 2012 was a pretty pathetic social movement that achieved nothing, but it was still referring to an actual thing.

Some Christian countries in Africa also carry the death penalty for homosexuality, something that westerners love to complain about in Islam (even though the number of middle eastern countries that actually have that penalty more or less match up with the number in Africa). Kind of worrying since these laws have, on occasion, been passed and supported by American Christian leaders or Christian politicians.

I am not too fond of christianity either, but when they start attacking innocents anywhere near the frequency of radical muslims, please be sure to let us know.

My personal theory is it's because they can still get away with it in most majority Muslim countries.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I am not too fond of christianity either, but when they start attacking innocents anywhere near the frequency of radical muslims, please be sure to let us know.

My personal theory is it's because they can still get away with it in most majority Muslim countries.

They do it non Muslim majority countries too. The Philippines is overwhelmingly Christian if I'm not mistaken yet a bunch of Muslim militants just executed some 20 people there, reportedly for not being able to recite verses from the Quran or some such shit.

[Imperializt Russia]

I know Kony 2012 was a pretty pathetic social movement that achieved nothing, but it was still referring to an actual thing.

Some Christian countries in Africa also carry the death penalty for homosexuality, something that westerners love to complain about in Islam (even though the number of middle eastern countries that actually have that penalty more or less match up with the number in Africa). Kind of worrying since these laws have, on occasion, been passed and supported by American Christian leaders or Christian politicians.

I am not too fond of christianity either, but when they start attacking innocents anywhere near the frequency of radical muslims, please be sure to let us know.

Wow, countries not currently in civil wars have less people killed by extremists than those in civil wars.

Who fuckin' knew?

[Amuaplye]

It's in the bible too, y'know.

Ja, but you don't see christians or jews committing these acts very often, now do you?

Oh, I don't know...

the 1996 Olympic Bombing in Atlanta?

[Aelex]

Those people were ethnically French.
Just like the many principalities, duchies and sub-states that made up what was eventually a unified Germany were ethnically Germanic.

Even though the cultures were not the same, there was significant sharing, due to proximity, and the language not too dissimilar.
It's not comparable.

They weren't. And I'm not saying that only because there is no "ethnic French" as the French identity is one built around Culture rather than Blood. I'm saying that because ethnically speaking; Occitans, Bretons, Catalans and Basques are different to the people of Northern France as the former are closer to Latin like Spaniards and Italians (or Irish for the Bretons) while the later are closer to Germanic like Germans or English. That much is something we know for certain.
The same is also true for the language, if not even truer. Saying that they were "not too dissimilar" is utter bullshit of the highest level. French and English are actually closer to each other as languages (with about 45% of English words being of French origins) than French and Occitan are. Arguing the contrary is not only stupid but factually false.

To recapitulate, the ethnicity, language and culture were all different but it's still not comparable, somehow? Honestly, the only reason it wouldn't be is you refusing to accept a truth you dislike.
No matter whether you like it or not, the facts remain the same. With less tools at its disposal and less efforts, France managed to assimilate in more or less of 30 years approximately 60% of its total population despite them being more or less entirely foreign to the "primary" culture. And now, in double the time and with way more tools and efforts, mere integration was impossible to achieve with what amount to only 6% to 9% of the total population.

The conclusion is easy to draw, here. :^)