The Manchester Attacks Megathread

[Alvecia]

Well, Islamic terrorism should at least be mentioned in-name, because it IS a threat. Thus, it is somewhat aggravating when news-stations are like, "Oh, hey, ISIS claimed responsibility and whatnot, but [x] was just...you know...common terrorism."

Or maybe we could try not trying to connect this to a billion innocent people in the minds of the public?

They aren't, just the terrorist ones.

[Luminesa]

Anyway, I'm probably late to the party on this, but...it looks like, according to the NYT, Abedi was Muslim, and his parents were worried about his radicalization. They were afraid enough, in fact, that they tried to take away his passport. And now people are also worried that he was working with people, so it's possible he was no "lone wolf". Once again, I just showed back up, but what do you guys think? When your parents are scared enough that you're gonna snap that they try to keep you from traveling, what sort of person could this have been?

[Luminesa]

Well, Islamic terrorism should at least be mentioned in-name, because it IS a threat. Thus, it is somewhat aggravating when news-stations are like, "Oh, hey, ISIS claimed responsibility and whatnot, but [x] was just...you know...common terrorism."

Or maybe we could try not trying to connect this to a billion innocent people in the minds of the public?

...Did I ever say I was going to do so?...

[Luminesa]

Yes, continue to ignore the problem. Business as usual everyone, carry on.

So how is not creating faulty generalisations ignoring a problem?

And yet you made the faulty generalization that mentioning Islamic terrorism immediately meant I was going to shout that all Muslims need to die.

[Sareva]

Yes, continue to ignore the problem. Business as usual everyone, carry on.

So how is not creating faulty generalisations ignoring a problem?

Generalisations? Heavens no, but not pointing out the fact that there are some serious problems going on within Islam isn't helping either. Point being, Islam has some views that are at odds with the West but the vast plurality have little interest in sparking a war of faith. A considerable minority do want this in some fashion, and pretending they don't exist is a bit useless isn't?

[Vassenor]

Or maybe we could try not trying to connect this to a billion innocent people in the minds of the public?

...Did I ever say I was going to do so?...

That's generally what the insistence that this be referred to as Islamic Terrorism rather than just Terrorism does.

[Athrax]

Or maybe we could try not trying to connect this to a billion innocent people in the minds of the public?

If isn't connected to them. It's connected to their faith.

There's a difference.

A big problem for me is people being overly willing to tie together their criticism of Islam as an institution with feeling towards Muslims that leads so often to any talk on the issue devolving quickly into rather unsavory phrases being tossed at whole populations of people.

[Alvecia]

...Did I ever say I was going to do so?...

That's generally what the insistence that this be referred to as Islamic Terrorism rather than just Terrorism does.

Well, I mean, it was Islamic Terrorism.

[Sareva]

...Did I ever say I was going to do so?...

That's generally what the insistence that this be referred to as Islamic Terrorism rather than just Terrorism does.

Generalisation for a generalisation I see.

[Frank Zipper]

And when you have the Libyans telling you what to do.

Instructions on how ro make semtex can be found in most highschool chemistry books. It is not hard - which is ofc also part of the problem.

What sort of fuckwit puts how to make explosives in school text books?

[Galloism]

Instructions on how ro make semtex can be found in most highschool chemistry books. It is not hard - which is ofc also part of the problem.

What sort of fuckwit puts how to make explosives in school text books?

You can find instructions on how to build nukes in the public library.

Materials are hard to come by though.

[The Alma Mater]

Instructions on how ro make semtex can be found in most highschool chemistry books. It is not hard - which is ofc also part of the problem.

What sort of fuckwit puts how to make explosives in school text books?

Dunno. But I still have mine somewhere in the attic.
Ofc, the internet also exists.

[Luminesa]

...Did I ever say I was going to do so?...

That's generally what the insistence that this be referred to as Islamic Terrorism rather than just Terrorism does.

Alright, so Point A (Islamic Terrorism exists) often has trouble getting to Point B (Islamic terrorism is acknowledged and considered). Instead of ignoring Point A, then, let's maybe build the bridge between Point A and Point B, instead of strawmanning your opponent saying, "Hey, you probably hate Islam because you acknowledge Islamic terrorism!" No, I acknowledge that the problem exists, and I want to solve it. Nothing can be done, for better or for worse, if the problem is not acknowledged.

[Athrax]

That's generally what the insistence that this be referred to as Islamic Terrorism rather than just Terrorism does.

Alright, so Point A (Islamic Terrorism exists) often has trouble getting to Point B (Islamic terrorism is acknowledged and considered). Instead of ignoring Point A, then, let's maybe build the bridge between Point A and Point B, instead of strawmanning your opponent saying, "Hey, you probably hate Islam because you acknowledge Islamic terrorism!" No, I acknowledge that the problem exists, and I want to solve it. Nothing can be done, for better or for worse, if the problem is not acknowledged.

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

[Ifreann]

Alright, so Point A (Islamic Terrorism exists) often has trouble getting to Point B (Islamic terrorism is acknowledged and considered). Instead of ignoring Point A, then, let's maybe build the bridge between Point A and Point B, instead of strawmanning your opponent saying, "Hey, you probably hate Islam because you acknowledge Islamic terrorism!" No, I acknowledge that the problem exists, and I want to solve it. Nothing can be done, for better or for worse, if the problem is not acknowledged.

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

Wanker terrorism?

[Uxupox]

Alright, so Point A (Islamic Terrorism exists) often has trouble getting to Point B (Islamic terrorism is acknowledged and considered). Instead of ignoring Point A, then, let's maybe build the bridge between Point A and Point B, instead of strawmanning your opponent saying, "Hey, you probably hate Islam because you acknowledge Islamic terrorism!" No, I acknowledge that the problem exists, and I want to solve it. Nothing can be done, for better or for worse, if the problem is not acknowledged.

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

How the hell are we supposed to name them then?

[Gauthier]

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

How the hell are we supposed to name them then?

"Terrorism"

[Edding]

How the hell are we supposed to name them then?

"Terrorism"

Vague to the point of being moot.

[Sareva]

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

How the hell are we supposed to name them then?

According to mass media, lone wolves.

[Uxupox]

How the hell are we supposed to name them then?

"Terrorism"

An not address the source of thereof?

[Athrax]

"Terrorism"

An not address the source of thereof?

The source of terrorism is a sense of detatchment, isolation, abandonment, etc. Poverty and mental health play a much bigger role in determining all forms of crime, including terrorism, than the religion of an individual.

[Liriena]

Or maybe we could try not trying to connect this to a billion innocent people in the minds of the public?

If isn't connected to them. It's connected to their faith.

There's a difference.

Sounds awfully like the religious equivalent "I don't hate homosexuals, just homosexuality".

[Luminesa]

Alright, so Point A (Islamic Terrorism exists) often has trouble getting to Point B (Islamic terrorism is acknowledged and considered). Instead of ignoring Point A, then, let's maybe build the bridge between Point A and Point B, instead of strawmanning your opponent saying, "Hey, you probably hate Islam because you acknowledge Islamic terrorism!" No, I acknowledge that the problem exists, and I want to solve it. Nothing can be done, for better or for worse, if the problem is not acknowledged.

Except that experts in terrorism have often said that talking about "Islamic terrorism" only serves as a propoganda tool for the terrorists, as it creates a perception of the West being against Islam and frames this as a civilizational conflict, making their propoganda work easier. More precise language going after the groups in question has been far more advised than talking about "Islamic terrorism"

The problem is this needs to be weaved through. Islamic terrorism does exist, and is a growing problem in many poor and unstable countries. It is a very specific form of terrorism, and it needs to be fought, not ignored or shoved under the rug. Of course, the problem here is that, yes, it's very easy for ISIS and whatnot to twist the U.S.'s actions as "imperialism", but that cannot keep a hold over the U.S. forever.

[Uxupox]

An not address the source of thereof?

The source of terrorism is a sense of detatchment, isolation, abandonment, etc. Poverty and mental health play a much bigger role in determining all forms of crime, including terrorism, than the religion of an individual.

And if radicalization and one's violent method did not exist we would not see such a similar attack conducted.

[Frank Zipper]

"Terrorism"

An not address the source of thereof?

Saudi Arabia?