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The Problems of Democracy

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United Muscovite Nations
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The Problems of Democracy

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 12:03 pm

Going to try to keep this non-bloggy, but it could delve into that territory, so I apologize if I don't stay on-message.

Democracy has been, since the Enlightenment, becoming more popular in discussions on politics, with most Western countries (and many non-Western countries) at least claiming to be democratic; indeed, democracy has become a sort of "unquestioned good", and it is this among other things I want to address in this post.

Firstly, the question of democracy as universally desirable or good, I think, is a self-defeating one. Democracy is inherently relativistic; policy isn't decided based on ideological reasons or even necessarily according to merit, but according to what is supported by the majority (or plurality) of people in the society. This is self defeating because, when even what is desirable is relative, then whether democracy is desirable is also relative, and most democracies only maintain themselves as democracies (and this is debatable, as I shall go into later) through legal force, grounding themselves on an ideology that, at its core, is not democratic.

The main way, as previously mentioned, to prevent relativism from rendering democracy into continually degenerating, is a republican structure based on core principles. Two problems present themselves here, firstly, as mentioned before, that these core principles aren't democratic, by nature. The nature of things like civil rights, is that it violates the principle of majority-control. The second problem, is that, as pointed out by Robert Michels in his formulation of the Iron Law of Oligarchy in 1911. The argument made by Herr Michels is that the organization of large republics inevitably creates hierarchy, on the bases that 1) political organization requires people to devote their lives to it (i.e. political organization is not a part-time endeavor), 2) that, because political organization requires time and training, it is not open to everyone, as the great mass of the population must work on other things, 3) because only a small class of people will be able to spend their time running the political organizations, they will eventually come to be the only people who actually know how to run the political machine, becoming a political elite, and 4), because the political elites are the only people with the organization and expertise to run the political machine, they will be the only choices. Michels also includes the point that the weight of a single vote in a large enough society is so little, that it is a poor investment to actually spend your time and money educating yourself on the political process simply for the purpose of voting. As evidence of his assertion that even democratic institutions will be subsumed into the oligarchy, he provided the examples (later, not in his original book) of how the radical socialist and Marxist parties, with the exception of the Bolsheviks, rallied behind their wartime governments in the First World War, even though this would undoubtedly lead to the deaths of millions of working-class people for the gain of the existing political structure, not the workers. Michels used this "Iron Law" to explain why there have been so few long-lasting democratic institutions throughout history (because they would either collapse into mob rule or rule by a political elite).

So, we are faced with two premises:
1) Pure democracy is not inherently desirable, and
2) Large republics are oligarchies, not democracies

I, personally, am fairly convinced by these arguments, but I think it is foolish to rely solely on one's own faculties to assess an argument, especially when you are already biased in-favor or against it. Because of that, I direct the following questions to the largest internet community I am a part of (outside of 4Chan):

1) Is democracy inherently relativistic? If not, how does it avoid becoming so?
2) In-practice, do existing political organizations (specifically, political parties) adhere to the Iron Law of Oligarchy (i.e. are they ruled by a politically educated elite).
3) Are there large, successful governments, either historically or currently-existing, that did not rely on the organization which, according to Michels, creates oligarchy in all cases?



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Last edited by United Muscovite Nations on Sun May 21, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Pantuxia
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Postby New Pantuxia » Sun May 21, 2017 3:29 pm

Democracy just doesn't work. It naturally leads to communism amd destroys nations.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 3:34 pm

New Pantuxia wrote:Democracy just doesn't work. It naturally leads to communism amd destroys nations.

I don't think that's necessarily true, I just think that democracy would come to the natural problem that democracy on a large, organized scale isn't possible.

Thanks for bumping my thread, btw.
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Postby Korica » Sun May 21, 2017 3:45 pm

Oh Democracy, where you vote for which party is going to continue to serve the needs of capitalist class and not the people.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 3:46 pm

Korica wrote:Oh Democracy, where you vote for which party is going to continue to serve the needs of capitalist class and not the people.

Marxist-Leninist organization would inherently run into the same problems presented in Michel's iron law.
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Postby New Pantuxia » Sun May 21, 2017 3:50 pm

Korica wrote:Oh Democracy, where you vote for which party is going to continue to serve the needs of capitalist class and not the people.

I agree, but the power shouldn't go to "the people" it should go to the strong and most capable of ensuring the survival of the nation and its folk.
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Postby Korica » Sun May 21, 2017 3:57 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Korica wrote:Oh Democracy, where you vote for which party is going to continue to serve the needs of capitalist class and not the people.

Marxist-Leninist organization would inherently run into the same problems presented in Michel's iron law.

How exactly?

New Pantuxia wrote:
Korica wrote:Oh Democracy, where you vote for which party is going to continue to serve the needs of capitalist class and not the people.

I agree, but the power shouldn't go to "the people" it should go to the strong and most capable of ensuring the survival of the nation and its folk.

And who will decide is the most "strong and most capable of ensuring the survival of the nation and its folk"?
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Postby Ambarii » Sun May 21, 2017 4:02 pm

New Pantuxia wrote:Democracy just doesn't work. It naturally leads to communism amd destroys nations.

Even though the majority of communist nations collapsed because of democratic reforms...

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:15 pm

Korica wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Marxist-Leninist organization would inherently run into the same problems presented in Michel's iron law.

How exactly?

The exact same reasons that democracy does, because it requires a political elite to run the affairs of state and who devotes their entire time to the affairs of state that are outside of the ability of everyone to partake in.
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Postby Rhodevus » Sun May 21, 2017 4:17 pm

Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-quote from Churchill
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Rhodevus wrote:Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-quote from Churchill

That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?
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Postby Nakena » Sun May 21, 2017 4:22 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Rhodevus wrote:Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-quote from Churchill

That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?


Peaceful transition of power and generally but not necessarily higher degrees of accountability.

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:23 pm

Nakena wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?


Peaceful transition of power and generally but not necessarily higher degrees of accountability.

Most forms of government manage peaceful transition of power when working properly.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun May 21, 2017 4:27 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Rhodevus wrote:Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-quote from Churchill

That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?

I'd say democracy is 'better' due to tendency to be more stable.
An authoritarian government that suppresses all other ideologies can only be overthrown through force and violence, whereas pluralistic democracies have a culture of "let's agree to disagree, go vote, and go back to our coffee".

As to the criticism of 'policies aren't based on what's most effective but most popular' is technically true but isn't really a valid criticism because you can make the same criticism of autocracies and oligarchies where policy is based on what the one or the few want.

The HOPE is that a government that is bound to the will of the people will be more responsive to the actual needs and rights of the people.
While it doesn't always work out that way you do see more responsive governments then we historically did with hereditary autocracies with their "You didn't put me on this throne, God did, and I don't have to answer to you." attitude.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sun May 21, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rhodevus » Sun May 21, 2017 4:28 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Rhodevus wrote:Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-quote from Churchill

That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?


All forms of government tried to date have either revolved around: everyone gets equal power or one person gets all the power. The problem with all political systems is that we are trying to put rules on a species that is not perfect. Due to every individual being slightly different, all with their own thoughts and thought process, there is no way for any system to be 100% perfect for humanity.

In any system where one person is in charge of many, it will ultimately collapse when the masses decide that the person in charge should no longer be in that position. In a system where everyone has equal footing, then everyone will still try to do better than the people around him. Even now, humans run on survival of the fittest, but instead of biological abilities, it is wealth, material and otherwise that sets people apart. Even in a society with 'perfect communism', it will eventually collapse, because humans aren't perfect enough to want to share all resources equally. We will try to compete for something. Humans are, after all competitive creatures.

Democracy, while not very good, is the only system which both gives everyone an equal say, and still puts someone in charge of everyone. It allows people to rise and fall in power and does it all fairly stably.

Will democracies tend towards oligarchies eventually? Yes they will. Although, I do doubt it will happen outfront. More likely it will be normal democratic elections as always, but the person in charge is pretty much a puppet of companies. And when this happens to a full extent, I bet most people will eventually (emphasis on eventually) retaliate, dismantle that system and put a new government style in its place. Which, whatever it is will devolve back into a democracy, or something very similar to it.
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Postby Tekeristan » Sun May 21, 2017 4:29 pm

Democracy probably sucks, but it's the best we got, and thus I'll fight for it.

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:30 pm

Genivaria wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:That doesn't really answer any of the questions presented in the OP. Why is democracy better than other forms of government? And, just as importantly, at what point does democracy devolve into oligarchy?

I'd say democracy is 'better' due to tendency to be more stable.
An authoritarian government that suppresses all other ideologies can only be overthrown through force and violence, whereas pluralistic democracies have a culture of "let's agree to disagree, go vote, and go back to our coffee".

As to the criticism of 'policies aren't based on what's most effective but most popular' is technically true but isn't really a valid criticism because you can make the same criticism of autocracies and oligarchies where policy is based on what the one or the few want.

The HOPE is that a government that is bound to the will of the people will be more responsive to the actual needs and rights of the people.

But what if the government shouldn't be changed, and is being effective, but is still unpopular? In that case, it shouldn't be voted out.

My criticism is more that pure democracy would be more vulnerable to radical ideological change over short periods of time.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun May 21, 2017 4:33 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'd say democracy is 'better' due to tendency to be more stable.
An authoritarian government that suppresses all other ideologies can only be overthrown through force and violence, whereas pluralistic democracies have a culture of "let's agree to disagree, go vote, and go back to our coffee".

As to the criticism of 'policies aren't based on what's most effective but most popular' is technically true but isn't really a valid criticism because you can make the same criticism of autocracies and oligarchies where policy is based on what the one or the few want.

The HOPE is that a government that is bound to the will of the people will be more responsive to the actual needs and rights of the people.

But what if the government shouldn't be changed, and is being effective, but is still unpopular? In that case, it shouldn't be voted out.

My criticism is more that pure democracy would be more vulnerable to radical ideological change over short periods of time.

To my understanding historically speaking most people don't care for radically change unless a government is REALLY bad, and there's something seriously strange going on if a government is both very effective at addressing the needs of the people and still very unpopular.

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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:38 pm

Genivaria wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:But what if the government shouldn't be changed, and is being effective, but is still unpopular? In that case, it shouldn't be voted out.

My criticism is more that pure democracy would be more vulnerable to radical ideological change over short periods of time.

To my understanding historically speaking most people don't care for radically change unless a government is REALLY bad, and there's something seriously strange going on if a government is both very effective at addressing the needs of the people and still very unpopular.

But it's happened very often, just look at the fall of Estado Novo for an example.

It may not seem like radical change because it happens over the course of a few decades, but it certainly can be extremely radical when viewed. Think about it, we went from being so finnicky about sex that Lucy (fromI Love Lucy) and her husband didn't share a bed when they were talking, to literally having public advertisements that just put the product in front of a vagina, in the course of fifty years. That seems like a radical change. In the US, we seem to be going from no public healthcare system, to a public healthcare system, then back again, in the course of less than ten years.
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Postby Italios » Sun May 21, 2017 4:39 pm

The biggest failure of democracy's part is its subversion to the power of money. We see this in America and its corruption of the democratic system, but these problems are solvable as shown in places like Sweden in which donations of money to political parties are banned and they receive funding based on the size of their membership. Thus, parties are able to grow naturally and gain popularity with minimal corruption.
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Italios
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Postby Italios » Sun May 21, 2017 4:40 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'd say democracy is 'better' due to tendency to be more stable.
An authoritarian government that suppresses all other ideologies can only be overthrown through force and violence, whereas pluralistic democracies have a culture of "let's agree to disagree, go vote, and go back to our coffee".

As to the criticism of 'policies aren't based on what's most effective but most popular' is technically true but isn't really a valid criticism because you can make the same criticism of autocracies and oligarchies where policy is based on what the one or the few want.

The HOPE is that a government that is bound to the will of the people will be more responsive to the actual needs and rights of the people.

My criticism is more that pure democracy would be more vulnerable to radical ideological change over short periods of time.

What's the issue with that? The point of democracy is that it bends with the will of the people and is subject then to whatever radical ideological change they experience. If it's not a reflection of the people, it's not working like it's supposed to.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:41 pm

Italios wrote:The biggest failure of democracy's part is its subversion to the power of money. We see this in America and its corruption of the democratic system, but these problems are solvable as shown in places like Sweden in which donations of money to political parties are banned and they receive funding based on the size of their membership. Thus, parties are able to grow naturally and gain popularity with minimal corruption.

But that isn't really what causes oligarchy to evolve in democracy. Oligarchy isn't necessarily rule by the rich, it's rule by an elite of any kind, and even in the Nordic countries, there is a political elite that control the basic aspects of public policy.
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Postby Bakery Hill » Sun May 21, 2017 4:41 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:So, we are faced with two premises:
1) Pure democracy is not inherently desirable, and
2) Large republics are oligarchies, not democracies

Agreed.

1) Is democracy inherently relativistic? If not, how does it avoid becoming so?

It is relativistic. I would say that a spirituality of some sort (secular or religious) would help tame some of the problems.

2) In-practice, do existing political organizations (specifically, political parties) adhere to the Iron Law of Oligarchy (i.e. are they ruled by a politically educated elite).

They tend to be. This is why we need mass structures, and why I trust trade unions over political parties. They can and do suffer similar problems, but they are grounded in working class struggle and when infused with that aforementioned spirit, they can do great things.

3) Are there large, successful governments, either historically or currently-existing, that did not rely on the organization which, according to Michels, creates oligarchy in all cases?

Successful? Perhaps. Desirable? Depends who you are. But they were all lead by oligarchies.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 pm

Italios wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:My criticism is more that pure democracy would be more vulnerable to radical ideological change over short periods of time.

What's the issue with that? The point of democracy is that it bends with the will of the people and is subject then to whatever radical ideological change they experience. If it's not a reflection of the people, it's not working like it's supposed to.

Which is a problem. Radical changes are a threat to stability. This goes back to my criticism that pure democracy is inherently relativistic, and not founded on any principles, going as far as to ideologically undermine itself by rendering its own existence as merely subjectively good.
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Italios
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Postby Italios » Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Italios wrote:The biggest failure of democracy's part is its subversion to the power of money. We see this in America and its corruption of the democratic system, but these problems are solvable as shown in places like Sweden in which donations of money to political parties are banned and they receive funding based on the size of their membership. Thus, parties are able to grow naturally and gain popularity with minimal corruption.

But that isn't really what causes oligarchy to evolve in democracy. Oligarchy isn't necessarily rule by the rich, it's rule by an elite of any kind, and even in the Nordic countries, there is a political elite that control the basic aspects of public policy.

The people still have the ability to vote them out.
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