NationStates

New haven america wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Not abundantly during recorded history.

Yes, actually.

How do you think Alfred Wegener figured out Continental Drift? Hint: He was studying plant and animal fossils from Antarctica.

If it's old enough to be fossilized, it's not recorded history; recorded history means the written record.

The oceans are also very concerning.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:TBH, these comments and jokes are absolutely brilliant. I think the Norse one and the Australian one were my favorites.

The best joke in this thread in the one where OP claimed Antarctica was a inhospitable and frozen wasteland until now, while the article he linked is about the increased growth rate of existing moss.

Aclion wrote:

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:TBH, these comments and jokes are absolutely brilliant. I think the Norse one and the Australian one were my favorites.

The best joke in this thread in the one where OP claimed Antarctica was a inhospitable and frozen wasteland until now, while the article he linked is about the increased growth rate of existing moss.

The fact that only moss grows there is generally evidence that an area is inhospitable.

Jamzmania wrote:Apparently, thanks to global warming, vast sums of land will now be much more habitable and arable. Thanks global warming!

And other land -- land that currently has people living in it, land where people have invested a lot of time and money into building up infrastructure -- will become uninhabitable.

USS Monitor wrote:

Jamzmania wrote:Apparently, thanks to global warming, vast sums of land will now be much more habitable and arable. Thanks global warming!

And other land -- land that currently has people living in it, land where people have invested a lot of time and money into building up infrastructure -- will become uninhabitable.

Yay! Flooding!!

Jesus Christ.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:Before anyone pounces on me, let me state my position: climate change is a fact and the earth is warming. The hoax is that it's mostly our fault and that we should empower the government to control every inch of our consumption to fix it.

It is not a hoax. Demonstrate otherwise.
Climate change is natural but the cumulative increase in damaging effects - predominantly the increase in concentration of greenhouse gases beginning from the industrial revolution from man-made sources, either by increased agriculture or industrial activity - have led to an unprecedented rate of warming, in a rapid manner. This time, now.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum/

Take a government resource from three years back over your blog and Daily Mail. While sea ice is melting somewhat in the Arctic, Antarctica is, by comparison, doing just fine. The record lows in its summer are offset entirely by wintertime. Its sea ice levels since then have been mostly average. The Hole In the Ozone Layer has also closed, thanks to environmental responsibility (and needless government intervention, the Free Market would have ended CFCs itself once the damage got out).

Yes, there is a typical loss of ice in summer months from the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets, and a recovery of ice in winter months.
The issue is that while Anarctica has a slight net gain over the course of a year, Greenland has an enormous net loss, far outstripping Antarctica's gain. I believe the gap is a factor of around 4 (ie globally, four times as much ice is lost than recovered).
The fact that record lows are becoming "more record" is still a cause for concern, particularly because of the effects experienced on the other ice sheet.

The hole in the ozone layer would not have fixed itself or the "free market" ending CFC use out of their own goodwill. If this were remotely true, then we wouldn't be shipping waste white goods and electronics to the third world now, where heavy metal poisoning and fumes from the breaking down of these products poisons millions.
Demonstrate the reasons you believe the free market would behave in such an altruistic manner when true altruism would necessitate actions to reduce consumption, antithetical to free capitalism?

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:When Republicans say that anthropogenic climatechange is a hoax, they don't mean that climate change itself is a hoax.

Speak for yourself, but for many, it's a carefully worded defence to throw off the accusation that they don't believe in climate change at all. This way, they get to play the breezy game that "the science isn't settled" (it is), "it's under debate" (it's not to any meaningful degree) and take advantage of the extremely low level of scientific understanding of the western general public.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:They believe that the Chicken Little heralds among us, who say the world will end every X years unless we give government control over every inch of our consumption and crush our freedoms.

Those people aren't important and nor does the New World Order marxist conspiracy exist.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:IF climate change is our fault, the government is not a solution. However, since it is not our fault, we can only do what we can to migitate rising temperatures and seas until the earth returns to the global cooling cycle that Chicken Little heralds said would start the next Ice Age.

"Government" isn't a solution. International agreements, enforced by elements of "government", is a stopgap measure to reduce the impact of pollution, until we can reach a solution.
One such solution would be a worldwide agreement to greatly limit consumption now, or to replace fossil fuels with non-fossil fuel sources to not do that. Green energy or nuclear. Governments - through subsidy, socialising of risk - can help energy suppliers to do this.
Of course if the government did already own the energy supplying apparatus, then that would simplify about thirty steps and billions of dollars, but oh well, the magic of the Free Market I guess.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:Don't forget that CO2 is VERY good for plants, and that there are now more trees in the USA than there were in 1900 AD, and hundreds of billions more trees across the earth than there were fifty years ago.

CO2 is "good for plants". This is irrelevant, since climate change in the UK and US is predicted to lead to much more arid climes in regions that are typically strong agricultural areas. This would completely demolish any possible gains in yield from increased CO2, and indeed, decrease overall yield.

Can you substantiate your claim there are "more trees" in the US and globally than there were one hundred years ago? In the last 50 years, we have seen significant droughts and desertification in several African and middle eastern countries, and enormous deforestation to a number of causes (mostly logging and farming) in South America, and Asia.

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:I will NEVER trust climate alarmists. They've said the world will end every few years since Al Gore began his career as an oracle, and remember, almost all the ringleaders of AGCC fly in jumbo jets, drive motercades of limousines, and live in beachfront mansions. Al Gore, Obama, and the other alarmists pollute more than I will in my lifetime.

What is a "climate alarmist" to you? If you don't trust them, why do they matter? Why not listen to climate scientists, the people who actually study and record this?

Al Gore is irrelevant. He's a publicity figure. He doesn't know the science, and in his Inconvenient Truth film, arguably misrepresented much of it, by being vague and misleading about his timescales.
No serious activist, and no scientist, claims "the world will end" as a result of climate change. Society will be massively damaged by its impacts, through climate refugees, lost crop yields and rising sea levels that will cost colossal amounts of money.
But no-one says society will "end", because that is of course, dumb.

Thermodolia wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
And other land -- land that currently has people living in it, land where people have invested a lot of time and money into building up infrastructure -- will become uninhabitable.

Yay! Flooding!!

I was actually thinking of desertification, but some places are likely to have problems with flooding too.

Dytarma wrote:

Iceland-Greenland Union wrote:
Also, as the Earth get's warmer, ice will melt, causing some arable land to go underwater. Also, stuff expands as it gets warmer, which will make even more land go underwater.

That's not the case with water. As water freezes, it expands, so if ice melts, it won't expand, there will just be more water.

Water does "expand" when heated. One component of sea level rise is the addition of new water into the oceans (ice sheet/glacial melt, freshwater sources etc), and the other is the thermal expansion of the oceans as global temperature rises.

Further, it is not sea ice that is the issue. If the ice is already in the sea, then it's an issue of displacement. The same amount of water as ice already in the water, it doesn't affect it. Put five ice cubes in a glass of water, and wait for them to melt.
However, ice falling into the sea from a glacier or ice sheet, that's new "water" coming into the sea, that will melt, and increase the water level.
Put five ice cubes in a glass of water, then add a sixth.

DARGLED wrote:

Saiwania wrote:For all of recorded history, Antarctica has been an inhospitable and frozen wasteland, nothing but tundra...

You are factually incorrect.

true look at this wiki article

Geological history and palaeontology

More than 170 million years ago, Antarctica was part of the supercontinent Gondwana. Over time, Gondwana gradually broke apart and Antarctica as we know it today was formed around 25 million years ago. Antarctica was not always cold, dry, and covered in ice sheets. At a number of points in its long history, it was farther north, experienced a tropical or temperate climate, was covered in forests, and inhabited by various ancient life forms.

Palaeozoic era (540–250 Ma)

During the Cambrian period, Gondwana had a mild climate. West Antarctica was partially in the Northern Hemisphere, and during this period large amounts of sandstones, limestones and shales were deposited. East Antarctica was at the equator, where sea floor invertebrates and trilobites flourished in the tropical seas. By the start of the Devonian period (416 Ma), Gondwana was in more southern latitudes and the climate was cooler, though fossils of land plants are known from this time. Sand and silts were laid down in what is now the Ellsworth, Horlick and Pensacola Mountains. Glaciation began at the end of the Devonian period (360 Ma), as Gondwana became centred on the South Pole and the climate cooled, though flora remained. During the Permian period, the land became dominated by seed plants such as Glossopteris, a pteridosperm which grew in swamps. Over time these swamps became deposits of coal in the Transantarctic Mountains. Towards the end of the Permian period, continued warming led to a dry, hot climate over much of Gondwana.[49]

Mesozoic era (250–66 Ma)

As a result of continued warming, the polar ice caps melted and much of Gondwana became a desert. In Eastern Antarctica, seed ferns or pteridosperms became abundant and large amounts of sandstone and shale were laid down at this time. Synapsids, commonly known as "mammal-like reptiles", were common in Antarctica during the Early Triassic and included forms such as Lystrosaurus. The Antarctic Peninsula began to form during the Jurassic period (206–146 Ma), and islands gradually rose out of the ocean. Ginkgo trees, conifers, bennettites, horsetails, ferns and cycads were plentiful during this period. In West Antarctica, coniferous forests dominated through the entire Cretaceous period (146–66 Ma), though southern beech became more prominent towards the end of this period. Ammonites were common in the seas around Antarctica, and dinosaurs were also present, though only three Antarctic dinosaur genera (Cryolophosaurus and Glacialisaurus, from the Hanson Formation,[50] and Antarctopelta) have been described to date.[51] It was during this era that Gondwana began to break up.

However, there is some evidence of antarctic marine glaciation during the Cretaceous period.[52]

Gondwana breakup (160–23 Ma)

The cooling of Antarctica occurred stepwise, as the continental spread changed the oceanic currents from longitudinal equator-to-pole temperature-equalising currents to latitudinal currents that preserved and accentuated latitude temperature differences.

Africa separated from Antarctica in the Jurassic, around 160 Ma, followed by the Indian subcontinent in the early Cretaceous (about 125 Ma). By the end of the Cretaceous, about 66 Ma, Antarctica (then connected to Australia) still had a subtropical climate and flora, complete with a marsupial fauna.[53] In the Eocene epoch, about 40 Ma Australia-New Guinea separated from Antarctica, so that latitudinal currents could isolate Antarctica from Australia, and the first ice began to appear. During the Eocene–Oligocene extinction event about 34 million years ago, CO2 levels have been found to be about 760 ppm[54] and had been decreasing from earlier levels in the thousands of ppm.

Around 23 Ma, the Drake Passage opened between Antarctica and South America, resulting in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current that completely isolated the continent. Models of the changes suggest that declining CO2 levels became more important.[55] The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent.

Neogene Period (23–0.05 Ma)

Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice

Aclion wrote:

TURTLESHROOM II wrote:TBH, these comments and jokes are absolutely brilliant. I think the Norse one and the Australian one were my favorites.

The best joke in this thread in the one where OP claimed Antarctica was a inhospitable and frozen wasteland until now, while the article he linked is about the increased growth rate of existing moss.

...
What part of "until now" are you not getting, exactly?

Thermodolia wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:
And other land -- land that currently has people living in it, land where people have invested a lot of time and money into building up infrastructure -- will become uninhabitable.

Yay! Flooding!!

YAY Toll free water park delivered to your home!

5 out of 5 dead pandas!

New haven america wrote:

Jamzmania wrote:Apparently, thanks to global warming, vast sums of land will now be much more habitable and arable. Thanks global warming!

Actually, a lot (If not most) of Antarctica is below sea level, so if the ice melts, it'll turn from a continent into an archipelago, so not much land would actually be gained.

not even close look here

Gig em Aggies wrote:

DARGLED wrote:You are factually incorrect.

true look at this wiki article

Geological history and palaeontology

More than 170 million years ago, Antarctica was part of the supercontinent Gondwana. Over time, Gondwana gradually broke apart and Antarctica as we know it today was formed around 25 million years ago. Antarctica was not always cold, dry, and covered in ice sheets. At a number of points in its long history, it was farther north, experienced a tropical or temperate climate, was covered in forests, and inhabited by various ancient life forms.

Palaeozoic era (540–250 Ma)

During the Cambrian period, Gondwana had a mild climate. West Antarctica was partially in the Northern Hemisphere, and during this period large amounts of sandstones, limestones and shales were deposited. East Antarctica was at the equator, where sea floor invertebrates and trilobites flourished in the tropical seas. By the start of the Devonian period (416 Ma), Gondwana was in more southern latitudes and the climate was cooler, though fossils of land plants are known from this time. Sand and silts were laid down in what is now the Ellsworth, Horlick and Pensacola Mountains. Glaciation began at the end of the Devonian period (360 Ma), as Gondwana became centred on the South Pole and the climate cooled, though flora remained. During the Permian period, the land became dominated by seed plants such as Glossopteris, a pteridosperm which grew in swamps. Over time these swamps became deposits of coal in the Transantarctic Mountains. Towards the end of the Permian period, continued warming led to a dry, hot climate over much of Gondwana.[49]

Mesozoic era (250–66 Ma)

As a result of continued warming, the polar ice caps melted and much of Gondwana became a desert. In Eastern Antarctica, seed ferns or pteridosperms became abundant and large amounts of sandstone and shale were laid down at this time. Synapsids, commonly known as "mammal-like reptiles", were common in Antarctica during the Early Triassic and included forms such as Lystrosaurus. The Antarctic Peninsula began to form during the Jurassic period (206–146 Ma), and islands gradually rose out of the ocean. Ginkgo trees, conifers, bennettites, horsetails, ferns and cycads were plentiful during this period. In West Antarctica, coniferous forests dominated through the entire Cretaceous period (146–66 Ma), though southern beech became more prominent towards the end of this period. Ammonites were common in the seas around Antarctica, and dinosaurs were also present, though only three Antarctic dinosaur genera (Cryolophosaurus and Glacialisaurus, from the Hanson Formation,[50] and Antarctopelta) have been described to date.[51] It was during this era that Gondwana began to break up.

However, there is some evidence of antarctic marine glaciation during the Cretaceous period.[52]

Gondwana breakup (160–23 Ma)

The cooling of Antarctica occurred stepwise, as the continental spread changed the oceanic currents from longitudinal equator-to-pole temperature-equalising currents to latitudinal currents that preserved and accentuated latitude temperature differences.

Africa separated from Antarctica in the Jurassic, around 160 Ma, followed by the Indian subcontinent in the early Cretaceous (about 125 Ma). By the end of the Cretaceous, about 66 Ma, Antarctica (then connected to Australia) still had a subtropical climate and flora, complete with a marsupial fauna.[53] In the Eocene epoch, about 40 Ma Australia-New Guinea separated from Antarctica, so that latitudinal currents could isolate Antarctica from Australia, and the first ice began to appear. During the Eocene–Oligocene extinction event about 34 million years ago, CO2 levels have been found to be about 760 ppm[54] and had been decreasing from earlier levels in the thousands of ppm.

Around 23 Ma, the Drake Passage opened between Antarctica and South America, resulting in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current that completely isolated the continent. Models of the changes suggest that declining CO2 levels became more important.[55] The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent.

Neogene Period (23–0.05 Ma)

Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice

None of that is recorded history.

Imperializt Russia wrote:Jesus Christ.

Given that he can walk on water, he's not so concerned with the floods that are caused by climate change.

Saiwania wrote:Should we permanently settle Antarctica like we have for the other continents?

But what about the penguins? What happens to them?

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Gig em Aggies wrote:true look at this wiki article

Geological history and palaeontology

More than 170 million years ago, Antarctica was part of the supercontinent Gondwana. Over time, Gondwana gradually broke apart and Antarctica as we know it today was formed around 25 million years ago. Antarctica was not always cold, dry, and covered in ice sheets. At a number of points in its long history, it was farther north, experienced a tropical or temperate climate, was covered in forests, and inhabited by various ancient life forms.

Palaeozoic era (540–250 Ma)

During the Cambrian period, Gondwana had a mild climate. West Antarctica was partially in the Northern Hemisphere, and during this period large amounts of sandstones, limestones and shales were deposited. East Antarctica was at the equator, where sea floor invertebrates and trilobites flourished in the tropical seas. By the start of the Devonian period (416 Ma), Gondwana was in more southern latitudes and the climate was cooler, though fossils of land plants are known from this time. Sand and silts were laid down in what is now the Ellsworth, Horlick and Pensacola Mountains. Glaciation began at the end of the Devonian period (360 Ma), as Gondwana became centred on the South Pole and the climate cooled, though flora remained. During the Permian period, the land became dominated by seed plants such as Glossopteris, a pteridosperm which grew in swamps. Over time these swamps became deposits of coal in the Transantarctic Mountains. Towards the end of the Permian period, continued warming led to a dry, hot climate over much of Gondwana.[49]

Mesozoic era (250–66 Ma)

As a result of continued warming, the polar ice caps melted and much of Gondwana became a desert. In Eastern Antarctica, seed ferns or pteridosperms became abundant and large amounts of sandstone and shale were laid down at this time. Synapsids, commonly known as "mammal-like reptiles", were common in Antarctica during the Early Triassic and included forms such as Lystrosaurus. The Antarctic Peninsula began to form during the Jurassic period (206–146 Ma), and islands gradually rose out of the ocean. Ginkgo trees, conifers, bennettites, horsetails, ferns and cycads were plentiful during this period. In West Antarctica, coniferous forests dominated through the entire Cretaceous period (146–66 Ma), though southern beech became more prominent towards the end of this period. Ammonites were common in the seas around Antarctica, and dinosaurs were also present, though only three Antarctic dinosaur genera (Cryolophosaurus and Glacialisaurus, from the Hanson Formation,[50] and Antarctopelta) have been described to date.[51] It was during this era that Gondwana began to break up.

However, there is some evidence of antarctic marine glaciation during the Cretaceous period.[52]

Gondwana breakup (160–23 Ma)

The cooling of Antarctica occurred stepwise, as the continental spread changed the oceanic currents from longitudinal equator-to-pole temperature-equalising currents to latitudinal currents that preserved and accentuated latitude temperature differences.

Africa separated from Antarctica in the Jurassic, around 160 Ma, followed by the Indian subcontinent in the early Cretaceous (about 125 Ma). By the end of the Cretaceous, about 66 Ma, Antarctica (then connected to Australia) still had a subtropical climate and flora, complete with a marsupial fauna.[53] In the Eocene epoch, about 40 Ma Australia-New Guinea separated from Antarctica, so that latitudinal currents could isolate Antarctica from Australia, and the first ice began to appear. During the Eocene–Oligocene extinction event about 34 million years ago, CO2 levels have been found to be about 760 ppm[54] and had been decreasing from earlier levels in the thousands of ppm.

Around 23 Ma, the Drake Passage opened between Antarctica and South America, resulting in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current that completely isolated the continent. Models of the changes suggest that declining CO2 levels became more important.[55] The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent.

Neogene Period (23–0.05 Ma)

Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice

None of that is recorded history.

just because its not recorded history doesn't mean it doesn't count

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Aclion wrote:The best joke in this thread in the one where OP claimed Antarctica was a inhospitable and frozen wasteland until now, while the article he linked is about the increased growth rate of existing moss.

The fact that only moss grows there is generally evidence that an area is inhospitable.

But not only moss grows there. Nearly all of the antarctic inland is an ice shelf, with no plant life, but the peninsula that these articles are about are home to ferns, grasses and even flowering plants. OP is being very dishonest.

New haven america wrote:

Jamzmania wrote:Apparently, thanks to global warming, vast sums of land will now be much more habitable and arable. Thanks global warming!

Actually, a lot (If not most) of Antarctica is below sea level, so if the ice melts, it'll turn from a continent into an archipelago, so not much land would actually be gained.

Lolno. Antarctica has the highest average elevation on any continent.

Gig em Aggies wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:None of that is recorded history.

just because its not recorded history doesn't mean it doesn't count

It does when what was said is "for all of recorded history".

Aclion wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:The fact that only moss grows there is generally evidence that an area is inhospitable.

But not only moss grows there. Nearly all of the antarctic inland is an ice shelf, with no plant life, but the peninsula that these articles are about are home to ferns, grasses and even flowering plants.

Hops and barley, please? Yes, I really want antarctican beer.

History of Climate Denial

1995: "Yeah but its like getting cooler man...
2006: "An inconvenient truth? Its snowing out, the earth isn't warming."
2010: "Stats that show a warming earth are being manipulated."
2013: "I mean, maybe the earth is warming, but we aren't scientists."
2017: "Yeah, the earth is warming, but the human effect on a warming earth is greatly over exaggerated."
2022: "Sure, we're contributing to a rapidly warming earth, but we can't really do anything about it."
2030: "Yeah, we're fucked. Sorry guys."

Well, this is certainly a thing.

If it becomes habitable enough, would the Antarctic Treaty be rescinded? If it is, I can't wait to own Antarctic beachfront property in the American territory of New Alaska.

The Antarctic Pennisula averages around 2 Centigrade and often gets up low teens in summer with the highest recorded being 175C. Moss, Lichen and grasses are normally found there but lately have been spreading faster than usual. (are yes forgot about liverworts)

I think this is great and hope to acquire real estate there soon - now we just need to reestablish the native dinosaura

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Gig em Aggies wrote: just because its not recorded history doesn't mean it doesn't count

It does when what was said is "for all of recorded history".

still wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Antarctica

so what was that about nothing living there again?