Trump MAGAthread VI

[Napkiraly]

I also question how willing the Greeks would be. A lot of Greeks are not particularly fond of the rest of Europe atm, particularly the likes of Germany and co and are increasingly tied to the Russians for economic and cultural (primarily religious) reasons. This is also something that must be taken into consideration. A number of the countries have particularly weak willed populations.

Which countries are you referring too? I know some, Poland obviously among them, would very much stand their ground.

Yes, Poland is a country who can be depended on at least to offer ferocious opposition to the Russians.

My primary concerns would be Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

[Ism]

Not really sure why we're actually discussing the possibility of a Russian invasion of Europe and an American counter-invasion as if the Cold War never ended. Russia couldn't invade us for shit. And we still have nukes that would hold them off long enough (if the situation were truly that desperate) that America could come save us or what have you without having to do another landing at Normandy.

That's bad. Russia has plenty of nukes too, so no one should be pulling nukes unless we want to turn all of Europe into Chernobyl.

[Uxupox]

Not really sure why we're actually discussing the possibility of a Russian invasion of Europe and an American counter-invasion as if the Cold War never ended. Russia couldn't invade us for shit. And we still have nukes that would hold them off long enough (if the situation were truly that desperate) that America could come save us or what have you without having to do another landing at Normandy.

If the Soviet Union decided to invade in 1948 during the initial stages of the Cold war. Then you wouldn't not be able to stop it.

[Lady Scylla]

Then you aren't taking your foe seriously or looking at the situation for what it is.

Do the Russians really have the resources to occupy Europe? Attack it, sure, maybe, and this is a big maybe, conquer it. But occupy it? I seriously doubt that.

Doubtful they'd make it far before Europe's arsenal went live.

[Conserative Morality]

You never fully deploy all those numbers. Always use the 1/3rd rule.

That doesn't change matters considering that the same rule would apply to the Russians. The real discussion is proportional to the Russians, not absolute numbers.

[The East Marches II]

Greece has supply issues and theirs out of commission. I don't know about the Romanians but I thought they sold alot of their kit to the Ukies. As for the Turks, they are missing a senior command and have opted to gut their incoming classes of officers by about 4 years. They are also practically out of commission.

Thank you for reminding me about the Ukranians - it's doubtful that they'd be particularly happy about a conventional Russian invasion on their doorstep. They're pissed enough about the 'rebel' problem in the Donbass.

Germany has 150 tanks in active service, France 200, the UK about 200.

These may not be optimal numbers - but taken together they're not "Roll over and die within a month" numbers either. "They can do better - and should" I agree with. "They are waiting to die" I don''t.

>European readiness rates

It's bad odds on NATO at the moment. Will their tanks even work? Will they commit theirs piecemeal? Some NATO countries don't have enough ammo train or MGs to use. It's a bad spot. It shouldn't be this way, that's the shame.

[Conserative Morality]

If the Soviet Union decided to invade in 1948 during the initial stages of the Cold war. Then you wouldn't not be able to stop it.

The SovUnion /=/ Russia

1948 /=/ Now

For one the entire former Warsaw pact is on our side.

[Sanctissima]

I also question how willing the Greeks would be. A lot of Greeks are not particularly fond of the rest of Europe atm, particularly the likes of Germany and co and are increasingly tied to the Russians for economic and cultural (primarily religious) reasons. This is also something that must be taken into consideration. A number of the countries have particularly weak willed populations.

Greece has been tied more and more to Europe financially speaking. And remember - Orthodox are not like Catholics - each national church is autocephalous.

If I recall correctly, SIRIZA recently tried to get Putin to print a new Greek currency and basically use them as a puppet against the EU.

Naturally, Putin told them to fuck off, but the relationship is still there nonetheless. In the event of a war between NATO and Russia, then at the very least, it is unlikely Greece would be a particularly passionate ally.

[Lady Scylla]

You never fully deploy all those numbers. Always use the 1/3rd rule.

That doesn't change matters considering that the same rule would apply to the Russians. The real discussion is proportional to the Russians, not absolute numbers.

http://thebulletin.org/how-us-nuclear-f ... super10578

[Olerand]

Not really sure why we're actually discussing the possibility of a Russian invasion of Europe and an American counter-invasion as if the Cold War never ended. Russia couldn't invade us for shit. And we still have nukes that would hold them off long enough (if the situation were truly that desperate) that America could come save us or what have you without having to do another landing at Normandy.

That's bad. Russia has plenty of nukes too, so no one should be pulling nukes unless we want to turn all of Europe into Chernobyl.

Then they shouldn't invade us. The whole point of the French nuclear program, which is not big enough to cause MAD, is dissuasion du faible au fort. We know we can't end Russia, and they can end us. But we intend to inflict as much damage on Russia as we possibly can to make the idea of ending us simply not worth it.

In de Gaulle's words:
Within ten years, we shall have the means to kill 80 million Russians. I truly believe that one does not light-heartedly attack people who are able to kill 80 million Russians, even if one can kill 800 million French, that is if there were 800 million French.

If we're genuinely facing a full-scale Russian invasion (which Russia cannot do today anyway) and we're on the verge of becoming a Russian Vichy State and the Americans aren't helping and we're down the shitter and all of that, I'm fairly certain we'd be willing to use nukes for dissuasion.

Not really sure why we're actually discussing the possibility of a Russian invasion of Europe and an American counter-invasion as if the Cold War never ended. Russia couldn't invade us for shit. And we still have nukes that would hold them off long enough (if the situation were truly that desperate) that America could come save us or what have you without having to do another landing at Normandy.

If the Soviet Union decided to invade in 1948 during the initial stages of the Cold war. Then you wouldn't not be able to stop it.

Absolutely, and that's why America was there in the first place. America "liberated" Western Europe so that the USSR wouldn't be able to do it. But, history is history, and the USSR did not start WWIII against the American soldiers stationed in Europe and the other European States in 1948, fortunately.

[Uxupox]

If the Soviet Union decided to invade in 1948 during the initial stages of the Cold war. Then you wouldn't not be able to stop it.

The SovUnion /=/ Russia

1948 /=/ Now

For one the entire former Warsaw pact is on our side.

You are right. I'd rather depend on the former Warsaw states than those who where in NATO since it's inception.

[Gauthier]

Do the Russians really have the resources to occupy Europe? Attack it, sure, maybe, and this is a big maybe, conquer it. But occupy it? I seriously doubt that.

Doubtful they'd make it far before Europe's arsenal went live.

But but Europe is just a bunch of pussies that couldn't stand up to a breeze because they don't spend themselves into bankruptcy with military hardware!

[Ism]

Which countries are you referring too? I know some, Poland obviously among them, would very much stand their ground.

Yes, Poland is a country who can be depended on at least to offer ferocious opposition to the Russians.

My primary concerns would be Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

Portugal and Spain I can understand, but they seem unlikely to be crucial to anti-Russian fighting. Italy I could also see, and they are definitely in a more sensitive area. I don't know enough about Greece to comment. Germany, I think Germany can hold its ground, in terms of popular support that is. I don't see the Germans rolling over to quickly.

[The East Marches II]

Not really sure why we're actually discussing the possibility of a Russian invasion of Europe and an American counter-invasion as if the Cold War never ended. Russia couldn't invade us for shit. And we still have nukes that would hold them off long enough (if the situation were truly that desperate) that America could come save us or what have you without having to do another landing at Normandy.

If you are weak, then you invite somebody to try it. Moscow would be right to question whether the moralists in Europe or the gentlemen in Paris have the guts to pull the trigger on nukes. You can't stop Turkey from blackmail without a moral quandary. It's another Cold War already. That ship has sailed.

[Hittanryan]

Deter them from doing what? Put pressure on them to do what?

Their expansionism and challenging of the American world order. They are doing everything to undermine us. Parallel insitutions in the financial world, a large naval build up and menacing the South China Sea. We should have stopped them, even if by force, from making those islands. We seriously made mistakes.

Are you sure military force would even deter them in the South China Sea? We'd be fighting a foe across the Pacific, one who lacks blue-water naval capability but has plenty of brown and green water threats as well as a huge air force. Meanwhile, US-China trade collapses along with the global economy, with untold billions of investment in China being wiped out in an instant.

[Conserative Morality]

Yes, Poland is a country who can be depended on at least to offer ferocious opposition to the Russians.

My primary concerns would be Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

You underestimate Germany, I think. Russian occupation would result in basically exactly the militaristic kind of illiberal regime they've spent the past 3/4s of a century guilting and terrifying themselves over. In the event of an actual Russian attack on Europe, Germany's problem wouldn't be will, but capabilities.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Then you aren't taking your foe seriously or looking at the situation for what it is.

Do the Russians really have the resources to occupy Europe? Attack it, sure, maybe, and this is a big maybe, conquer it. But occupy it? I seriously doubt that.

They don't. If we count reserves, RGF has about a little over 1 million troops. That's a lot, but the Nazis had some 18 mil back in ww2, and look how that went

[Napkiraly]

Are you not aware of China's growing ambitions, particularly within that region of the world?

China's 'growing' ambitions have had a stopper put in them ever since all our former enemies decided to play nice with us for that sweet American military hardware. The only place where they're actually a threat to the global order is Africa, and that's not a threat that we'll be dealing with in military terms.

And they are still increasingly becoming more tied with them as their economies become more intertwined with China's. China is being aggressive but not as flashy as the Russians are but the Chinese are seeking to replace the United States, make no mistake about that.

I also question how willing the Greeks would be. A lot of Greeks are not particularly fond of the rest of Europe atm, particularly the likes of Germany and co and are increasingly tied to the Russians for economic and cultural (primarily religious) reasons. This is also something that must be taken into consideration. A number of the countries have particularly weak willed populations.

Greece has been tied more and more to Europe financially speaking. And remember - Orthodox are not like Catholics - each national church is autocephalous.

Yes, something which they are not happy about considering the austerity that has been placed upon them and the resulting changes and hardship that brought. They are not happy with the EU and especially not happy with the Germans.

Orthodox countries can usually count on quite a number of foreign Orthodox joining in. That's why Serb forces in the Yugoslav Wars had considerable numbers of Greeks fighting for them. Greece was never particularly happy at the targeting of Serbia during that period.

[Lady Scylla]

Doubtful they'd make it far before Europe's arsenal went live.

But but Europe is just a bunch of pussies that couldn't stand up to a breeze because they don't spend themselves into bankruptcy with military hardware!

Right? Yet maintain overseas installations for the US involving nuclear forces of both nations.

[Napkiraly]

Yes, Poland is a country who can be depended on at least to offer ferocious opposition to the Russians.

My primary concerns would be Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

You underestimate Germany, I think. Russian occupation would result in basically exactly the militaristic kind of illiberal regime they've spent the past 3/4s of a century guilting and terrifying themselves over. In the event of an actual Russian attack on Europe, Germany's problem wouldn't be will, but capabilities.

No, I don't. Many, many Germans are weak willed. It's honestly a shame. The pool of recruits is becoming more and more limited as the military is seen as a dead end.

It's honestly baffling how they can be surprised that ultranationalists can develop a significant presence within their military considering the anti-militarism that exists within the wider population.

[The East Marches II]

Doubtful they'd make it far before Europe's arsenal went live.

But but Europe is just a bunch of pussies that couldn't stand up to a breeze because they don't spend themselves into bankruptcy with military hardware!

Do you have anything other than bad strawmen? You used to be good at that but you can't even manage that anymore.

[Uxupox]

Yes, Poland is a country who can be depended on at least to offer ferocious opposition to the Russians.

My primary concerns would be Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

You underestimate Germany, I think. Russian occupation would result in basically exactly the militaristic kind of illiberal regime they've spent the past 3/4s of a century guilting and terrifying themselves over. In the event of an actual Russian attack on Europe, Germany's problem wouldn't be will, but capabilities.

I wouldn't trust Germany these days. Their equipment and hardware numbers is low. Their morale exceptionally low. If it was during 1980's then it'd be a completely reverse opinion.

[The East Marches II]

Their expansionism and challenging of the American world order. They are doing everything to undermine us. Parallel insitutions in the financial world, a large naval build up and menacing the South China Sea. We should have stopped them, even if by force, from making those islands. We seriously made mistakes.

Are you sure military force would even deter them in the South China Sea? We'd be fighting a foe across the Pacific, one who lacks blue-water naval capability but has plenty of brown and green water threats as well as a huge air force. Meanwhile, US-China trade collapses along with the global economy, with untold billions of investment in China being wiped out in an instant.

Yes, you should read Kissinger's On China for a good idea of how they think and operate.

[Lady Scylla]

You underestimate Germany, I think. Russian occupation would result in basically exactly the militaristic kind of illiberal regime they've spent the past 3/4s of a century guilting and terrifying themselves over. In the event of an actual Russian attack on Europe, Germany's problem wouldn't be will, but capabilities.

No, I don't. Many, many Germans are weak willed. It's honestly a shame. The pool of recruits is becoming more and more limited as the military is seen as a dead end.

It's honestly baffling how they can be surprised that ultranationalists can develop a significant presence within their military considering the anti-militarism that exists within the wider population.

Germans don't want a war, but they would fight tooth and nail against Russia. 1980 wasn't that long ago.

[Uxupox]

Do the Russians really have the resources to occupy Europe? Attack it, sure, maybe, and this is a big maybe, conquer it. But occupy it? I seriously doubt that.

They don't. If we count reserves, RGF has about a little over 1 million troops. That's a lot, but the Nazis had some 18 mil back in ww2, and look how that went

Are those complete numbers? And not just battle phase numbers?