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The future of the US as a nation

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

The future of the US as a nation?

The internal divisions will result in a violent break-up
11
15%
The internal divisions will see more political autonomy devolved to local levels of government governing more unified areas
11
15%
The internal divisions will remain as they are now, and the groups will swap places in power every so often - one in charge, the other trying to frustrate them
12
17%
The current internal divisions are serious, but they will go away and may be replaced by different ones
11
15%
The current internal divisions are blown out of proportion, this is just normal politics
25
35%
Other (Explain)
2
3%
 
Total votes : 72

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Neu Leonstein
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Ex-Nation

The future of the US as a nation

Postby Neu Leonstein » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:14 am

So I'm not going to pull out the various statistics, because I'm sure we're all aware by this point. But basically, the US is splitting up more and more into different nations. You have political polarisation, but this is more and more also coinciding with economic polarisation (areas that are contributing a lot to GDP and are connected with the world economy vs everywhere else), geographic polarisation (city vs country), cultural polarisation (educated vs less educated), religious polarisation (various forms of (politicised?) Christianity vs everything else) and even ethnic polarisation. Those different groups are more and more consuming different news and interpreting them in different ways. The world is a very different place depending on which side you ask. Even America is a very different place depending on which side you ask. There seems to be less and less that those sides can agree on, and more and more stuff that can be repurposed as a new front in this conflict.

So far, so trodden out. But if this trend continues, and elections continue to become the main instances of a larger culture war going on, fought out with increasing rancour and occasional instances of violence... how much longer can the US continue to exist as one nation? How do you see this play out in the future? Will there be some sort of cataclysmic event, or will this turn around somehow?

And if it turns around, what do you think would have to happen? What sort of event, or what sort of leader, would be required to bring all these groups back together again?

As for my own view... I'm really unsure at this point. It's hard for me to imagine the US actually falling apart, but it's equally hard for me to imagine a way for these trends to be reversed. That's sorta why I'm asking for opinions.
Last edited by Neu Leonstein on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself in all cases as the age and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies. Man has no property in man; neither has any generation a property in the generations which are to follow.”
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Risottia
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Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:53 am

Considering how secessionist/localist movements tend to grow in times of economic crisis, I guess it's likely that one day a crisis will lead to the US splitting up somewhat, but I don't think it's anywhere in the foreseeable future.
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Lady Scylla
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Founded: Nov 22, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Lady Scylla » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:10 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:So I'm not going to pull out the various statistics, because I'm sure we're all aware by this point. But basically, the US is splitting up more and more into different nations. You have political polarisation, but this is more and more also coinciding with economic polarisation (areas that are contributing a lot to GDP and are connected with the world economy vs everywhere else), geographic polarisation (city vs country), cultural polarisation (educated vs less educated), religious polarisation (various forms of (politicised?) Christianity vs everything else) and even ethnic polarisation. Those different groups are more and more consuming different news and interpreting them in different ways. The world is a very different place depending on which side you ask. Even America is a very different place depending on which side you ask. There seems to be less and less that those sides can agree on, and more and more stuff that can be repurposed as a new front in this conflict.

So far, so trodden out. But if this trend continues, and elections continue to become the main instances of a larger culture war going on, fought out with increasing rancour and occasional instances of violence... how much longer can the US continue to exist as one nation? How do you see this play out in the future? Will there be some sort of cataclysmic event, or will this turn around somehow?

And if it turns around, what do you think would have to happen? What sort of event, or what sort of leader, would be required to bring all these groups back together again?

As for my own view... I'm really unsure at this point. It's hard for me to imagine the US actually falling apart, but it's equally hard for me to imagine a way for these trends to be reversed. That's sorta why I'm asking for opinions.


I don't think the country will split up per se, but I could see a major regime change happening. I don't have any estimate as far as when such a change could or would happen -- things like this are notoriously unpredictable at times. However, the US could be arriving at an impasse where we see the government further centralise and move further away from federation (which would be consistent with our historical trend), or we see a major topple of the current government for something else entirely. The problem with arriving at any single, precise conclusion on this is the amount of variables involved, notably, as you pointed out, the different forms of clashing within our society.

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Lorkhan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Lorkhan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:49 am

If the current trend of violent political destabilization continues among the common class, then we are in for a really rough ride. Riots and street groups are forming across the nation, each with the agenda to protect and if necessary enforce their ideology, triggering battles between literal political gangs in our cities. I do not think there is going to be any peace.

If the federal government continues to spiral out of control, then it's just going to be worse.
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Neu Leonstein
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Ex-Nation

Postby Neu Leonstein » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:54 am

Lorkhan wrote:If the current trend of violent political destabilization continues among the common class, then we are in for a really rough ride. Riots and street groups are forming across the nation, each with the agenda to protect and if necessary enforce their ideology, triggering battles between literal political gangs in our cities. I do not think there is going to be any peace.

If the federal government continues to spiral out of control, then it's just going to be worse.

Is there any sort of politician or political platform that could heal some of these divisions and form a more inclusive majority?
“Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself in all cases as the age and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies. Man has no property in man; neither has any generation a property in the generations which are to follow.”
~ Thomas Paine

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Lorkhan
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Founded: May 18, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Lorkhan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:57 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Lorkhan wrote:If the current trend of violent political destabilization continues among the common class, then we are in for a really rough ride. Riots and street groups are forming across the nation, each with the agenda to protect and if necessary enforce their ideology, triggering battles between literal political gangs in our cities. I do not think there is going to be any peace.

If the federal government continues to spiral out of control, then it's just going to be worse.

Is there any sort of politician or political platform that could heal some of these divisions and form a more inclusive majority?


I doubt it. I think something can and will develop over time, but it's not really feasible right now. We will probably have to kill each other in large violent flash mobs first, and then we can decide to be humans again.
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Seleucas
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Ex-Nation

Postby Seleucas » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:51 pm

I think that it could go one of two ways; either the US will split up along the lines mentioned, or it will change into a more authoritarian and unitary form to bypass gridlock and keep everyone in line. I do not know how long hyper-partisanship and having one party be the party of 'No' will last, and there is no better way to consolidate power than a well-leveraged crisis.

Honestly, I am hoping the US breaks up. There is no real benefit in having an increasingly financialized economy that leaves most people out in the cold, is inherently unstable, and promotes rampant speculation instead of production. I do not see the elites giving up their powers to make things right, but if their influence was cut off and political power was put on a more local basis, then there would be a much more substantial chance of eliminating a variety of social and economic ills.
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San Marlindo
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Father Knows Best State

Postby San Marlindo » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:55 pm

Hahahahahaha!

You think the US has internal divisions, possibly to the point of breakup?

Come back to me when it's reached the point of Russia, which has several active separatist movements, dozens of individual ethnic and national sub-units, and a Chechen insurgency, yet still shows no sign of breaking up anytime soon.

Yet for some reason I never hear Russians going off on tangents about their country breaking up, it's always melodramatic Yanks.
Last edited by San Marlindo on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sanctissima
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:59 pm

The obsession with free market Capitalism will result in another inevitable major recession, one which, combined with too much military intervention abroad and fruitless expenditure of resources, will weaken the US to the point where it loses its status as superpower.

Otherwise, that's about it. Glory days will be gone, but it's not like the US will implode or anything.

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Great Minarchistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:59 pm

Problem solving guideline:

1- Break up into 50 states
2- Wait coalitions to form
3- Rinse and repeat
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:00 pm

Sanctissima wrote:The obsession with free market Capitalism will result in another inevitable major recession


tfw US has been keynesian since 2000
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Sanctissima
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:03 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:The obsession with free market Capitalism will result in another inevitable major recession


tfw US has been keynesian since 2000


Republicans control Congress and the presidency, so not for much longer.

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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:04 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:
tfw US has been keynesian since 2000


Republicans control Congress and the presidency, so not for much longer.


> Implying most Republicans - mainly Dubya - are keynesians

Also buddy, free market capitalism in US died in 1913.
Last edited by Great Minarchistan on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Osnil Returns
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Ex-Nation

Postby Osnil Returns » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:07 pm

My theory: The San Andreas Fault goes off and chucks the whole west coast into the sea and conservatism reigns supreme for the rest of eternity. That, and my Nevada Desert Property becomes Oceanfront property. :rofl:
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Ashlak
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ashlak » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:08 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:The obsession with free market Capitalism will result in another inevitable major recession


tfw US has been keynesian since 2000


>Any amount of regulation equals Keynesianism

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been monetarist since the 70s.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:11 pm

Ashlak wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:
tfw US has been keynesian since 2000


>Any amount of regulation equals Keynesianism

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been monetarist since the 70s.


>20 trillion debt
>Big budget
>Stimulus package and bailout programs
>Cronyism
>Interest rates on the floor (sure... monetarism...)
>Three bubbles created since 2000

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been keynesian since 2000. Or since 1990s, meh.
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Osnil Returns
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Postby Osnil Returns » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:14 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Ashlak wrote:
>Any amount of regulation equals Keynesianism

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been monetarist since the 70s.


>20 trillion debt
>Big budget
>Stimulus package and bailout programs
>Cronyism
>Interest rates on the floor (sure... monetarism...)
>Three bubbles created since 2000

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been keynesian since 2000. Or since 1990s, meh.

The Trump (pun intended) is sounding for the ending of the Keynesian Ideology and returning to Classical common sense.
Last edited by Osnil Returns on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:15 pm

Osnil Returns wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:
>20 trillion debt
>Big budget
>Stimulus package and bailout programs
>Cronyism
>Interest rates on the floor (sure... monetarism...)
>Three bubbles created since 2000

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been keynesian since 2000. Or since 1990s, meh.

The Trump (pun intended) is sounding for the ending of the Keynesian Ideology and returning to Classical common sense.


"Classical common sense"?
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Ashlak
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ashlak » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:19 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Ashlak wrote:
>Any amount of regulation equals Keynesianism

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been monetarist since the 70s.


>20 trillion debt
>Big budget
>Stimulus package and bailout programs
>Cronyism
>Interest rates on the floor (sure... monetarism...)
>Three bubbles created since 2000

Hate to disappoint you, but the US has been keynesian since 2000. Or since 1990s, meh.


>Implying that the weak stimulus package that Obama did amounted to any significant deviance into Keynesian economics
>Implying that the other things you listed aren't just what happens when you practice deregulartion

kek
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Osnil Returns
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Postby Osnil Returns » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:19 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Osnil Returns wrote:The Trump (pun intended) is sounding for the ending of the Keynesian Ideology and returning to Classical common sense.


"Classical common sense"?

The Classical Economic view: no economic regulations = good economy, regulations= bad economy

Therefore: Common Sense.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:21 pm

Osnil Returns wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:
"Classical common sense"?

The Classical Economic view: no economic regulations = good economy, regulations= bad economy

Therefore: Common Sense.


Less regulations and more spending, kek. Social democracy detected
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:23 pm

Ashlak wrote:>Implying that the weak stimulus package that Obama did amounted to any significant deviance into Keynesian economics


>Implying 1.5 trillion dollars amounted to 10% of GDP back in 2008

Ashlak wrote:>Implying that the other things you listed aren't just what happens when you practice deregulartion


tfw cronyism and bubbles (mainly the 1929, 2001 and 2008) are caused by government and Federal Reserve.

Ashlak wrote:kek


kek² at your economical illiteracy
Last edited by Great Minarchistan on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Batorys
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Postby The Batorys » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:24 pm

To use a quote....


The future is shit.

Just like the past.
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Ashlak
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Postby Ashlak » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Ashlak wrote:>Implying that the weak stimulus package that Obama did amounted to any significant deviance into Keynesian economics


>Implying 1.5 trillion dollars amounted to 10% of GDP back in 2008

Ashlak wrote:>Implying that the other things you listed aren't just what happens when you practice deregulartion


tfw cronyism and bubbles (mainly the 1929, 2001 and 2008) are caused by government and Federal Reserve.

Ashlak wrote:kek


kek² at your economical illiteracy


>He thinks those things are the results of keynesianism and not the natural result of "free market" capitalism

Capitalism ain't the grand meritocracy you think it is, man.

Also, keynesian policies are what helped the US recover from 1929.
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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:38 pm

Ashlak wrote:>He thinks those things are the results of keynesianism and not the natural result of "free market" capitalism


Sure, because Federal Reserve was totally not created by government :roll:

Ashlak wrote:Capitalism ain't the grand meritocracy you think it is, man.


Then why did it work so well from 1776 to 1913? Explain pls.

Ashlak wrote:Also, keynesian policies are what helped the US recover from 1929.


Or delayed it.
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