Do you think that punishing pornographers would right?

[The United Remnants of America]

I feel like if we just educate children in school about porn and what it is and what it isn't, then there can't be a misconception about what you should be learning from it.

If we tell you what you should be learning, you can't fill in the gaps yourself and get "sex + camera = sexually assault women."

And if you do, then we have prisons for you. If you don't, enjoy wanking.

[Arcturus Novus]

Sex work may be super entwined with misogyny and patriarchy, but it's a career that lots of girls choose for themselves. There's no sense in punishing them for making money if they're not hurting anyone.

[Sovaal]

As long as it doesn't involve people who either haven't or are incapable of giving consent, is should be a-ok.

[Proctopeo]

That sounds like a bad idea.

[Risottia]

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

Correlation =/= causation...

I'd make another point. Prohibition of a good usually creates an illegal and unregulated market for it, and an illegal market mean more exploitation and more money for the criminal organisations who would control the whole production of that good. I'd rather regulate.

[Souseiseki]

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

Correlation =/= causation...

I'd make another point. Prohibition of a good usually creates an illegal and unregulated market for it, and an illegal market mean more exploitation and more money for the criminal organisations who would control the whole production of that good. I'd rather regulate.

correlation doesn't equal causation

but when it happens consistently across multiple countries there's probably something there

[Hansdeltania]

The only porn that should be punished are child, bestial, extreme BDSM when safe words are used but not respected or nonexistent, rape, and snuff.

[Great Minarchistan]

Hey buddy, some points I'd like to make instead of call your proposal just outright stupid:

1) Women are on porn and prostitution - specially the former - voluntarily. There's nobody forcing them to engage in sexual acts for money.
2) Porn is an important part of our society. Most of mankind usually can't get their sexual appetite properly satisfied. If you ban porn, expect some pedos around.
3) Ban it will be difficult. From teenagers to old-aged, from men to women, a lot of people watch porn. Oh, and with this law me might see some "porn evasion", similar to what happens when income is taxed.
4) How the fuck would this increase gender equality?

[Crockerland]

Personally I think, too, that pornography is encouraging, even worse: teaching, violence against women.

No, it's not.

[Galloism]

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

Correlation =/= causation...

I'd make another point. Prohibition of a good usually creates an illegal and unregulated market for it, and an illegal market mean more exploitation and more money for the criminal organisations who would control the whole production of that good. I'd rather regulate.

Of course I'm being somewhat hyperbolic. After shutting down her unproved causation claim with no evidence repeatedly with reverse correlation showed across multiple countries and scenarios only to be ignored, I'm entitled to be somewhat flippantly hyperbolic on the subject in all future threads with the same ridiculous claims.

[Ashmoria]

dangerous practices

tbh dangerous practices is massively subjective

yeah but it can be worked out.

[Threlizdun]

There is definitely a problem with widespread construction of male fantasies as sexual aggression towards women, though that is a problem of the manner in which porn is currently structured, rather than an inherent problem of pornography itself. Improvements could involve dramatically increasing the number of female, queer, trans, and non-white porn producers and writers, enabling women and other oppressed groups to construct the representation of their sexuality rather than having it constructed by cishet white men, showcasing informed and enthusiastic consent within scenes, and working to make viewers understand that scenes depicted in porn are just fantasies and should not necessarily representations of what sex is generally like.

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

I would be highly reluctant to attribute a reduction in rape rates directly to access to porn. There are far too many variables at work for it to be even remotely possible to discern if the relationship is causal. Most nations with high rates of pornography consumption have also had greater histories of feminist movements and legislation prosecuting marital rape and sexual abuse between partners, as well as more robust women's services and support networks. Those all seem much more likely candidates for reduction in rape cases than pornography.

[Souseiseki]

There is definitely a problem with widespread construction of male fantasies as sexual aggression towards women, though that is a problem of the manner in which porn is currently structured, rather than an inherent problem of pornography itself. Improvements could involve dramatically increasing the number of female, queer, trans, and non-white porn producers and writers, enabling women and other oppressed groups to construct the representation of their sexuality rather than having it constructed by cishet white men, showcasing informed and enthusiastic consent within scenes, and working to make viewers understand that scenes depicted in porn are just fantasies and should not necessarily representations of what sex is generally like.

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

I would be highly reluctant to attribute a reduction in rape rates directly to access to porn. There are far too many variables at work for it to be even remotely possible to discern if the relationship is causal. Most nations with high rates of pornography consumption have also had greater histories of feminist movements and legislation prosecuting marital rape and sexual abuse between partners, as well as more robust women's services and support networks. Those all seem much more likely candidates for reduction in rape cases than pornography.

the correlation also holds for the kinds of porn we're not allowed to talk about and in places where the feminist movement isn't quite up to scratch.

[Jello Biafra]

Pornography is free speech, though if people want to do awareness campaigns about it that's fine.

[Galloism]

There is definitely a problem with widespread construction of male fantasies as sexual aggression towards women, though that is a problem of the manner in which porn is currently structured, rather than an inherent problem of pornography itself. Improvements could involve dramatically increasing the number of female, queer, trans, and non-white porn producers and writers, enabling women and other oppressed groups to construct the representation of their sexuality rather than having it constructed by cishet white men, showcasing informed and enthusiastic consent within scenes, and working to make viewers understand that scenes depicted in porn are just fantasies and should not necessarily representations of what sex is generally like.

Given wider access to pornography is correlated with a reduction in rape rates, why do you want more people raped, OP?

I would be highly reluctant to attribute a reduction in rape rates directly to access to porn. There are far too many variables at work for it to be even remotely possible to discern if the relationship is causal. Most nations with high rates of pornography consumption have also had greater histories of feminist movements and legislation prosecuting marital rape and sexual abuse between partners, as well as more robust women's services and support networks. Those all seem much more likely candidates for reduction in rape cases than pornography.

Correlation =/= causation...

I'd make another point. Prohibition of a good usually creates an illegal and unregulated market for it, and an illegal market mean more exploitation and more money for the criminal organisations who would control the whole production of that good. I'd rather regulate.

Of course I'm being somewhat hyperbolic. After shutting down her unproved causation claim with no evidence repeatedly with reverse correlation showed across multiple countries and scenarios only to be ignored, I'm entitled to be somewhat flippantly hyperbolic on the subject in all future threads with the same ridiculous claims.

[Risottia]

Correlation =/= causation...

I'd make another point. Prohibition of a good usually creates an illegal and unregulated market for it, and an illegal market mean more exploitation and more money for the criminal organisations who would control the whole production of that good. I'd rather regulate.

Of course I'm being somewhat hyperbolic. After shutting down her unproved causation claim with no evidence repeatedly with reverse correlation showed across multiple countries and scenarios only to be ignored, I'm entitled to be somewhat flippantly hyperbolic on the subject in all future threads with the same ridiculous claims.

I approve highly of hyperbolae and of being flippant.

I also think we both approve of paraboloids. Especially if used to combine some "LASERS".

[Gauthier]

Straw feminism encouraging organized crime control of pornography and actual exploitation of women thereof. Yeeah...

[Chessmistress]

There is definitely a problem with widespread construction of male fantasies as sexual aggression towards women

I'm glad that we agree on such point.

Improvements could involve dramatically increasing the number of female

Problem being that women consume way less porn than men, so more women as producers would mostly do movies meant for men, or otherwise they would never achieve a significant share of the market.
Worth mentioning it still would be economical exploitation of women's bodies, basically a form of rape since it's coerced through money...

queer, trans and non-white porn producers and writers,

I understand "queer" and "trans" but what have to do race with that?
However if you really want to play "universally-inclusive" game then you did forget vegans and pro-animal rights and religious minorities porn producers

enabling women and other oppressed groups to construct the representation of their sexuality rather than having it constructed by cishet white men,

See above: are you really suggesting that the sexuality of heterosexual black/asian men is significantly different from the sexuality of white men?
That sounds even vaguely racist, and deeply conflicting against the notion of patriarchy: male heterosexuality within a patriarchy have many common traits that are universally shared among very different cultures, and here we're talking about people born in the same country, all heterosexual men, who have just only different skin color.
While I understand the good intentions, it would very likely end in having few women, and a greater portion of black heterosexual male producers and asian heterosexual male producers, on the whole still making the same kind of harmful movies.
Do you have proofs that heterosexual black men and heterosexual asian men have on average lesser patriarchal attitudes than heterosexual white men? Otherwise, you know, I'm right about that...

I would be highly reluctant to attribute a reduction in rape rates directly to access to porn. There are far too many variables at work for it to be even remotely possible to discern if the relationship is causal. Most nations with high rates of pornography consumption have also had greater histories of feminist movements and legislation prosecuting marital rape and sexual abuse between partners, as well as more robust women's services and support networks. Those all seem much more likely candidates for reduction in rape cases than pornography.

[/quote]

I fully agree even on such point.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Prohibition reduces what it prohibits, yo. /s

Clearly before porn existed not a single bad thing happened to women.

[Chessmistress]

Prohibition reduces what it prohibits, yo. /s

Clearly before porn existed not a single bad thing happened to women.

I never said that, that's just a strawman.
Regarding prohibition: my stance is against rich producers, at least initially (and however it should be kept so for years, maybe for many years), not about users.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Clearly before porn existed not a single bad thing happened to women.

I never said that, that's just a strawman.
Regarding prohibition: my stance is against rich producers, at least initially (and however it should be kept so for years, maybe for many years), not about users.

Your stance doesn't make any sense and frankly has no basis in reality.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Worth mentioning it still would be economical exploitation of women's bodies, basically a form of rape since it's coerced through money...

All jobs are rape then, because we're coerced to do things we may or may not like for money.


Seriously, we have a bad enough problem with rape without you watering down the terminology or what actually constitutes rape. Let's not cheapen people's suffering by suggesting that being paid to have sex on film, or in photography, or anything of the sort, by free will and choice, is anything even remotely close to being forced to endure unwanted sexual contact, penetration, or abuse, whatever gender one might happen to be, and regardless of the gender of the rapist.

[Galloism]

Worth mentioning it still would be economical exploitation of women's bodies, basically a form of rape since it's coerced through money...

All jobs are rape then, because we're coerced to do things we may or may not like for money.


Seriously, we have a bad enough problem with rape without you watering down the terminology or what actually constitutes rape. Let's not cheapen people's suffering by suggesting that being paid to have sex on film, or in photography, or anything of the sort, by free will and choice, is anything even remotely close to being forced to endure unwanted sexual contact, penetration, or abuse, whatever gender one might happen to be, and regardless of the gender of the rapist.

Btw, this is the eventual result of term dilution.

It's like the term "sex offender". Now that, in some states, "sex offender" includes someone caught urinating in public while drunk a decade ago, the term has been diluted beyond any real meaning. Consequently, if someone says "X person is a sex offender" my first question is "sex offense for what?" This is because the term has been diluted so much that it, by itself, carries no real meaning or weight anymore.

That's the logical result of Chessmistress and people like her diluting the term 'rape'.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

All jobs are rape then, because we're coerced to do things we may or may not like for money.


Seriously, we have a bad enough problem with rape without you watering down the terminology or what actually constitutes rape. Let's not cheapen people's suffering by suggesting that being paid to have sex on film, or in photography, or anything of the sort, by free will and choice, is anything even remotely close to being forced to endure unwanted sexual contact, penetration, or abuse, whatever gender one might happen to be, and regardless of the gender of the rapist.

Btw, this is the eventual result of term dilution.

It's like the term "sex offender". Now that, in some states, "sex offender" includes someone caught urinating in public while drunk a decade ago, the term has been diluted beyond any real meaning. Consequently, if someone says "X person is a sex offender" my first question is "sex offense for what?" This is because the term has been diluted so much that it, by itself, carries no real meaning or weight anymore.

That's the logical result of Chessmistress and people like her diluting the term 'rape'.

Agreed, and it needs to stop. Anyone actually believing that a horny teenager who gets caught doing what comes naturally with their equally horny teenage partner is of the same level of offense as a serial rapist for example, needs a serious reality check. We've allowed things that ought to be common sense to get entirely out of control, and that my friends, is not 'freedom', nor 'justice' of any sort.

[Sanctissima]

Depends.

If they're child pornographers, they should be hung by their entrails from the nearest tree.

If they're regular pornographers, as Chess seems to suggest, then I don't really see the problem with it so long as the people being used in the pornography aren't doing it against their will. It's an industry, like any other, and while it needs some regulation, it shouldn't be stamped out just because it centers around sex.