Chechnya gays, come to America !!

[New Clearland]

An LGBT homeland will only be sustainable for about one generation... After that their population crisis would be far worse than Japan or South Korea.

I responded to a nearly identical statement on the first page. If you're interested in learning, here is quite a lot to consider:

There are multiple problems with this sentence.

An LGBT homeland will only be sustainable for about one generation... After that their population crisis would be far worse than Japan or South Korea.

If you are interested in learning something new, please read! It took some time to write, and it makes me happy when people learn things.

I'll begin very simply:

L esbian - women - women
G ay - men - men
B isexual men - men women - women - men - women = Children?!
T rans - Not a sexuality, but a gender identity. Many be men -men women - women - men - women = Children?!
Q ueer - "other" catergory, women - women men - men women - men = Children?!

Furthermore, with in vitro fertilization and adoption, LGBT couples frequently have families now. What does this men? Well lets revisit our L and Gs.

Gay - Men - Men + various scientific methods = Children!
Lesbian - women - women + various scientific methods = children!

It is a little more difficult for our Gays and Lesbians, but hey - raising children is described as difficult by almost all parents! But back on topic...

So no, they wouldn't die off in a single generation. Disappointed? Fear not! Serious problems still face our hypothetical and newly born country. We'll get to that in just a bit. For now, don't feel too attacked, for in the problems I reveal, I will also reveal that the question you responded to, is a bit of a trick question!

Why? Because, a LGBT nation would quickly become a conventional nation, since gay couples will give birth to straight children - just as the reverse happens. Any LGBT nation, would not be a LGBT nation for long. There might be more LGBT persons concentrated in this nation than in any existing nation, which would certainly be interesting to consider, but just like every existing nation, Gaytopia will soon become LGBTQStraightopia. That sentence was a bit cringy, but you get the point, no?

So what solutions are we left with, if Gaytopia is a bit of a pipe dream?

Well, the only permanent solutions are,

1. Acceptance of LGBT persons.
2. Continuous termination of LGBT persons (this would have to be a permanent program, since LGBT persons will continuously be born).

Few societies can stomach the continuous killing of any group of people, so two is hardly a permanent solution. Yep, Chechnya. Not only are your actions horrendously evil, but they're futile as well. So is there an inbetween mass murder, and mass acceptance? Well yes. This brings up option 3:

3. Make it socially unacceptable and costly to publicly identify as LGBT.

Again, this is a temporary solution, since in developed nations with human rights, LGBT persons will eventually mobilize and argue for their rights. With the invention of modern technology (the internet), it is easier than ever for the LGBT community to build connections with each other, and unfortunately, there's no real coming back from that. Once the demand for recognition is made, the society will then go to option 1 (example: USA), or 2 (example: Chechnya*). Option 2 is clearly a horrible and costly option, that should be discouraged across the modern world. It is murderous and barbaric. However, if history is to be believed, it is also very temporary.

A country built of entirely LGBT people, would simply be a wildly improbably option 4, and one that would also be a very temporary solutions.

Hopefully, the situation in Chechnya comes to an end sooner than later, though. It is certainly within a countries rights to discourage LGBT persons, but as a member of the international community, there should be the strictest of consequences for what Chechnya is doing.

*The current situation in Chechnya, comes after LGBT groups applied to have a pride parade.

Do you think the Japanese and Koreans are asexual? No. Even with real reproduction they are still have population problems. Though as I understand Japan's birthrate is slowly rising.

And you are right that most children that are "conceived" in an LGBT homeland would be straight by default... regardless of how unconventionally they try to raise them. The only way to keep an LGBT nation LGBT would be to genocide all straight children, deport them, or have a minority rule situation like apartheid South Africa.

[Reploid Productions]

Wow. The inbred Chechen's did something good.

Chechens are fucking stupid, despite this. They are on par with Kosovar Albanians.

*** Faarali, WARNED for trolling. *** You need to review the site rules before proceeding, because broad, sweeping, nasty statements like this are not how we conduct discussion around here. Knock it off.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Sarigen]

I responded to a nearly identical statement on the first page. If you're interested in learning, here is quite a lot to consider:

There are multiple problems with this sentence.

An LGBT homeland will only be sustainable for about one generation... After that their population crisis would be far worse than Japan or South Korea.

If you are interested in learning something new, please read! It took some time to write, and it makes me happy when people learn things.

I'll begin very simply:

L esbian - women - women
G ay - men - men
B isexual men - men women - women - men - women = Children?!
T rans - Not a sexuality, but a gender identity. Many be men -men women - women - men - women = Children?!
Q ueer - "other" catergory, women - women men - men women - men = Children?!

Furthermore, with in vitro fertilization and adoption, LGBT couples frequently have families now. What does this men? Well lets revisit our L and Gs.

Gay - Men - Men + various scientific methods = Children!
Lesbian - women - women + various scientific methods = children!

It is a little more difficult for our Gays and Lesbians, but hey - raising children is described as difficult by almost all parents! But back on topic...

So no, they wouldn't die off in a single generation. Disappointed? Fear not! Serious problems still face our hypothetical and newly born country. We'll get to that in just a bit. For now, don't feel too attacked, for in the problems I reveal, I will also reveal that the question you responded to, is a bit of a trick question!

Why? Because, a LGBT nation would quickly become a conventional nation, since gay couples will give birth to straight children - just as the reverse happens. Any LGBT nation, would not be a LGBT nation for long. There might be more LGBT persons concentrated in this nation than in any existing nation, which would certainly be interesting to consider, but just like every existing nation, Gaytopia will soon become LGBTQStraightopia. That sentence was a bit cringy, but you get the point, no?

So what solutions are we left with, if Gaytopia is a bit of a pipe dream?

Well, the only permanent solutions are,

1. Acceptance of LGBT persons.
2. Continuous termination of LGBT persons (this would have to be a permanent program, since LGBT persons will continuously be born).

Few societies can stomach the continuous killing of any group of people, so two is hardly a permanent solution. Yep, Chechnya. Not only are your actions horrendously evil, but they're futile as well. So is there an inbetween mass murder, and mass acceptance? Well yes. This brings up option 3:

3. Make it socially unacceptable and costly to publicly identify as LGBT.

Again, this is a temporary solution, since in developed nations with human rights, LGBT persons will eventually mobilize and argue for their rights. With the invention of modern technology (the internet), it is easier than ever for the LGBT community to build connections with each other, and unfortunately, there's no real coming back from that. Once the demand for recognition is made, the society will then go to option 1 (example: USA), or 2 (example: Chechnya*). Option 2 is clearly a horrible and costly option, that should be discouraged across the modern world. It is murderous and barbaric. However, if history is to be believed, it is also very temporary.

A country built of entirely LGBT people, would simply be a wildly improbably option 4, and one that would also be a very temporary solutions.

Hopefully, the situation in Chechnya comes to an end sooner than later, though. It is certainly within a countries rights to discourage LGBT persons, but as a member of the international community, there should be the strictest of consequences for what Chechnya is doing.

*The current situation in Chechnya, comes after LGBT groups applied to have a pride parade.

Do you think the Japanese and Koreans are asexual? No. Even with real reproduction they are still have population problems. Though as I understand Japan's birthrate is slowly rising.

And you are right that most children that are "conceived" in an LGBT homeland would be straight by default... regardless of how unconventionally they try to raise them. The only way to keep an LGBT nation LGBT would be to genocide all straight children, deport them, or have a minority rule situation like apartheid South Africa.

Exactly!

I suppose population problems would certainly plague our hypothetical Gaytopia. Our fledgling country would have to struggle with this, even as straight, bisexual, and artificially inseminated/surrogate lesbians and gays have families.

It unfortunately all leads us right back to either option 1 or 2, a society that accepts gays or continuously exterminates them, as you mentioned. The problem with the assertion that a gay country would have population problems isn't that the statement is wrong, but rather that the whole premise of a gay country is highly unrealistic.

It's an interesting thought experiment, to flip the gay minority and straight majority situation. This has been explored before though, by people far smarter than I. If you are interested, you could google for information on them, there is a particularly well known short story on the topic.

[New Clearland]

Do you think the Japanese and Koreans are asexual? No. Even with real reproduction they are still have population problems. Though as I understand Japan's birthrate is slowly rising.

And you are right that most children that are "conceived" in an LGBT homeland would be straight by default... regardless of how unconventionally they try to raise them. The only way to keep an LGBT nation LGBT would be to genocide all straight children, deport them, or have a minority rule situation like apartheid South Africa.

First, I don't think you can appreciate how greatly they must want it. Take for example, Israel. I am sure that no one thought a bunch of Jews could form there own nation. But guess what ? They did. The answer as I see it is for a LGBTQ nation to form on earth. How to do it ? By constantly protesting. After all, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. showed us the power and the effectiveness of peaceful protests. After all, the Big Three ( Judaism, Christianity and Islam) say that being gay is wrong. A new philosophy has to be adopted that allows gay people to live instead of the options the Big Three suggests which is denial of your urges or even death.

Jews can reproduce in sufficient numbers. LGBT people cannot. And most of the babies that are born in an LGBT nation will turn out straight (it is supposed to be genetic after all) so they will have to either be deported, treated as second class citizens, or genocided to keep the nation LGBT. Either method will either result in a massive international uproar, trade sanctions, internal straight-rights revolution, and possible foreign military intervention. Even without those consequences, the LGBT nation would die off within a generation or two because of extremely low birthrates.

[Valgora]

Do you think the Japanese and Koreans are asexual? No. Even with real reproduction they are still have population problems. Though as I understand Japan's birthrate is slowly rising.

And you are right that most children that are "conceived" in an LGBT homeland would be straight by default... regardless of how unconventionally they try to raise them. The only way to keep an LGBT nation LGBT would be to genocide all straight children, deport them, or have a minority rule situation like apartheid South Africa.

First, I don't think you can appreciate how greatly they must want it. Take for example, Israel. I am sure that no one thought a bunch of Jews could form there own nation. But guess what ? They did. The answer as I see it is for a LGBTQ nation to form on earth. How to do it ? By constantly protesting. After all, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. showed us the power and the effectiveness of peaceful protests. After all, the Big Three ( Judaism, Christianity and Islam) say that being gay is wrong. A new philosophy has to be adopted that allows gay people to live instead of the options the Big Three suggests which is denial of your urges or even death.

I don't see how Israel is a good example, unless you want the new LGBTQ nation to force the people living there already away while the LGBTQ nation represses the other people's rights.

[Setgavarius]

An LGBT-only nation? I sense an agenda of the fifth column is at work.

[Aodh-Rhionnia]

An nation solely of gay people sounds both impractical, and political improbable. Where would it be?

[San Lumen]

No there should not be a LGBT nation but they should leave Chechnya and come to Europe or the West where they would be safe from prosecution. Everyone is equal and deserves the right to be happy.

[Great Minarchistan]

Do you believe there should be a nation made up of only LGBTQ members ?

> tfw another Israel, but a gay one

What would be the name? *chuckles*

[Valgora]

> tfw another Israel, but a gay one

What would be the name? *chuckles*

It depends on the nation. What do *THEY* want to call it ?

Gaysrael

[Great Minarchistan]

> tfw another Israel, but a gay one

What would be the name? *chuckles*

It depends on the nation. What do *THEY* want to call it ?

Queerland.
PS.: For Christ's sake, that's a joke. Don't get me wrong.

Issue two: how to make it sustainable? Gay imports?

[Valgora]

It depends on the nation. What do *THEY* want to call it ?

Queerland.
PS.: For Christ's sake, that's a joke. Don't get me wrong.

Issue two: how to make it sustainable? Gay imports?

Queerland sounds like a fucking gay amusement park.

Gaysrael sounds better.

[Threlizdun]

There's a possible mass incarceration and massacre of LGBTQIA individuals in Chechnya, and this thread is really arguing about the logistics of a queer-only nation?

Police in the predominantly Muslim republic allegedly rounded up more than 100 gay men and killed at least three In the face of growing international concern about reported detentions and killings of gay men in Chechnya, Russian president Vladimir Putin’s spokesman says the Kremlin does not have confirmed information on the targeted violence. The respected Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta reported this month that police in the predominantly Muslim republic rounded up more than 100 men suspected of homosexuality and that at least three of them have been killed. Chechen authorities have denied the reports. But the UN’s high commissioner for human rights and prominent international organisations have urged the Russian government to investigate the reported abuse . But Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told journalists on Friday: “We do not have any reliable information about any problems in this area.” Novaya Gazeta said in a statement that it fears for the safety of its journalists after exposing the persecution of gay men in Chechnya, a Muslim-majority republic of Russia .

( This came from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -spokesman )

My Response: I think what is happening in Chechnya is wrong . Indeed, I believe that God is against this action because if he wasn't, there would be no gays. Yet we find gays and lesbians since the world started turning.
Therefore, let me welcome any Chechnyan gay or lesbian to America, where you will be safe.

There is absolutely no guarantee of safety for the LGBTQIA community in America. Hate crimes against queer and trans people still occur with regular frequency, job and housing discrimination is still legal in many states, and rates of homelessness, sexual assault, mental illness, suicide, and lack of access to adequate healthcare remain much higher for the LGBTQIA community than average.

[Great Minarchistan]

There's a possible mass incarceration and massacre of LGBTQIA individuals in Chechnya, and this thread is really arguing about the logistics of a queer-only nation?

He legit asked us about it... Why wouldn't we talk about it?

[Aodh-Rhionnia]

There's a possible mass incarceration and massacre of LGBTQIA individuals in Chechnya, and this thread is really arguing about the logistics of a queer-only nation?

It is a main point of the thread so....why wouldnt we? And it has a bit more discussion potential since I am pretty sure most everyone is on the same page that it is a vile practice.

[Threlizdun]

There's a possible mass incarceration and massacre of LGBTQIA individuals in Chechnya, and this thread is really arguing about the logistics of a queer-only nation?

He legit asked us about it... Why wouldn't we talk about it?

Because the question didn't make any sense in context when the OP proposed it? It has nothing to do with the topic of what happened in Chechnya.

[Great Minarchistan]

It really depends on what the people of that antion decide to call themselves.

What if there is a disagreement? Then my house can be named Queerland and my neighbor can be named Gaytopia because we disagree about the name of the nation?

I think that we shouldn't decide

Who said we would?

First, because the majority of us aren't LGBTQ at all,

According to your logic all american nations would get their names vanished because it was decided by European colonizers :^)

Second, it's arrogant ot act like we have control over there nation and can tell them what they need to do about there own nation.

Who said we would do it?

That pretty much is a summary of my feelings about the whole issue and why I don't feel that we should name it.

Great, let's name it as Φ


Third issue: Are non-gays allowed to enter Φ?

[Great Minarchistan]

He legit asked us about it... Why wouldn't we talk about it?

Because the question didn't make any sense in context when the OP proposed it? It has nothing to do with the topic of what happened in Chechnya.

It doesn't matter, he asked the community and we are just following what's considered in-topic and debating about it.

[Great Minarchistan]

Again, I leave that possibility open. *THEY* have to decide . Notice I put the emphasis on "THEY" . That is because I think we need to stop trying to tell them what to do. It is totally up to THEM. They need to decide if they can live in the same country as straight people or if there is such a large difference that they must move. I can propose, I can plan but I can NEVER tell them what to do. That is TOTALLY up to them

So gays shouldn't pay taxes and stuff like that?

[Aodh-Rhionnia]

He legit asked us about it... Why wouldn't we talk about it?

Again, I leave that possibility open. *THEY* have to decide . Notice I put the emphasis on "THEY" . That is because I think we need to stop trying to tell them what to do. It is totally up to THEM. They need to decide if they can live in the same country as straight people or if there is such a large difference that they must move. I can propose, I can plan but I can NEVER tell them what to do. That is TOTALLY up to them

But how would this really come to pass in a realistic manner? A council of homesexuals from all over the world? Seems like it would be hard to implement and get off the ground.

[Threlizdun]

He legit asked us about it... Why wouldn't we talk about it?

Again, I leave that possibility open. *THEY* have to decide . Notice I put the emphasis on "THEY" . That is because I think we need to stop trying to tell them what to do. It is totally up to THEM. They need to decide if they can live in the same country as straight people or if there is such a large difference that they must move. I can propose, I can plan but I can NEVER tell them what to do. That is TOTALLY up to them

But no one in the queer community actually cares about discussing some hypothetical exclusively queer fantasy nation when they actually seeing others being murdered for who they are. The topic isn't simply a non-issue for the queer community, it doesn't even come close to resembling something we actually care about. If it were brought up on its own in another thread it would be strange, but it would at least resemble some weird but rather pointless "what if" scenario. When brought up in the context of mass incarcerate and mass murder it seems a bit... distasteful? I'm just having difficulties understanding why you would feel that was a question that needed to be posed after discussing a potentially ongoing campaign of mass murder against a minority group.

[Great Minarchistan]

So gays shouldn't pay taxes and stuff like that?

No. This is a democracy and as long as they live here they have to pay taxes just like everyone else.

I quote you:

I think we need to stop trying to tell them what to do.

[Valgora]

What if there is a disagreement? Then my house can be named Queerland and my neighbor can be named Gaytopia because we disagree about the name of the nation?

My Response: They would have to decide the issue between the two of them. no one else can decide it and no one else should.


Who said we would?

My Response
I didn't assume you did. However, in a democracy the majority is assumed to be right. In this case, I don't feel we have any right to make a decision because we are not LGBTQ. If you are, however, then you ARE allowed. It just goes to straight people


According to your logic all american nations would get their names vanished because it was decided by European colonizers :^)

My Response :Yes. Because we invaded their land, massacred and killed there people, I don't feel we have any right to name the nation. The indigenous population should have that right.[

quote="Lincolnopolis";p="31609797"]Second, it's arrogant ot act like we have control over there nation and can tell them what they need to do about there own nation.

Who said we would do it?

My Response : Typically, people believe they have the right to name there nation. Since we are dealing in a nation that wouldn't have as many straights, it makes sense that the straights would believe that. I have to differ. They have no right to name the nation nor make the laws.

That pretty much is a summary of my feelings about the whole issue and why I don't feel that we should name it.

Great, let's name it as Φ


Third issue: Are non-gays allowed to enter Φ?

My Response[/b[b]]: Because it seems that it is most likely gayness is a born in quality, and because they can't change there sexual orientation, it stands to reason they would be suspicious of straight people. However, as gay people have kids and as long as these children act within this nation's law then yes, they are allowed. Of course, it would be up to the gay people to decide.
[/quote]

So your saying that this LGBTQ nation can discriminate non-gays if it wants to?
It's becoming more and more like Israel, the bullied have become the bullies.

The Fabulous State of Gaysreal is this new nation's official name now.

[Great Minarchistan]

They would have to decide the issue between the two of them. no one else can decide it and no one else should.

What if they disagree to agree? What if those two are actually an entire community that disagrees with the name? You'll just create a goo with 20 nations per square kilometer.

I didn't assume you did. However, in a democracy the majority is assumed to be right. In this case, I don't feel we have any right to make a decision because we are not LGBTQ.

What if the gay nation has more straight people than LGBT ones?

Yes. Because we invaded their land, massacred and killed there people, I don't feel we have any right to name the nation. The indigenous population should have that right.

I thought the majority had the right to take decisions...

Typically, people believe they have the right to name there nation. Since we are dealing in a nation that wouldn't have as many straights, it makes sense that the straights would believe that. I have to differ. They have no right to name the nation nor make the laws.

So you will just make like Chechnya but with gays massacring straight people's rights? Brilliant!

However, as gay people have kids

How?

[Valgora]

However, as gay people have kids

How?

They can.

Sperm donors and surrogate mothers.