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On integration, assimilation and multiculturalism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

For an immigrant to be sufficiently integrated...

... they just have to be there, no further integration is needed.
44
8%
... they have to share the same commitment to liberal, democratic political values as the general population.
109
21%
... they have to express similar political views using similar language in a similar way to that of the general population.
47
9%
... they have to act in accordance with the same standards regarding treatment of sex, gender, sexual preferences etc as the general population, including at home.
109
21%
... they have to speak the same language as the general population to each other in public.
111
21%
... they have to speak the same language as the general population to each other at home.
26
5%
... they have to follow/not follow the same religion as the general population.
23
4%
... they have to eat/not eat the same food as the general population.
18
3%
... they have to be part of the same ethnic group as the general population.
19
4%
... is impossible.
15
3%
 
Total votes : 521

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Neu Leonstein
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On integration, assimilation and multiculturalism

Postby Neu Leonstein » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:56 am

Some people say multiculturalism is great. Others say it's awful. Almost everyone agrees that immigrants should integrate or even assimilate to some degree, but they mean different things by that.

That's not really helpful when we debate these issues. One person might say "I think multiculturalism is a bad thing" and mean that they are worried about people who don't share a commitment to liberal democracy exerting political power. But someone else might interpret this to mean that they're offended by there being a mosque in the city, or by people speaking a foreign language at the supermarket.

So I wonder: are there different kinds of multiculturalism? Like, if you have people from many different cultural backgrounds and religions all committed to a liberal democratic political system, voting for various parties without explicit reference to their cultural background, is that a kind of multiculturalism?

The poll has a few options for what an immigrant should be doing before you consider them sufficiently "integrated" or "assimilated" (I realise that the two can mean different things, but for the purposes of this thread and the poll, it's probably easier to just take them both to mean "a part of 'us' to such a degree that their presence doesn't arouse particular feelings or resentments in me"). The poll is also biased towards integration in a Western country of the sort most of us are from, in which you have a liberal democracy with mostly socially liberal values.

To me, integration would be reached with just two of the above options: "sharing the same commitment to liberal, democratic political values as the general population" and "they have to act in accordance with the same standards regarding treatment of sex, gender, sexual preferences etc as the general population, including at home". To me, that would be enough to take part in society in a way that doesn't infringe on the way the society works in an unreasonable way. Diversity of any other sort is not necessarily a bad thing, and can be dealt with using the same general principles of how to treat other people as we already apply when dealing with the native-born.

So as a result, to me multiculturalism doesn't mean tolerating people who beat their wives or agitate for a theocracy. But it does mean tolerating that there's a Buddhist temple in town and that there are people speaking five different language when I catch public transport. For a long time I thought this was obvious, but it happens every so often that people have completely different ideas of what the word means and then talk past each other.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:02 am

I chose 2,3,4,5,7, & 9. Those are the things i believe are necessary for full integration.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:04 am

This is one of those things for which there is no one-size-fits-all solutions. Especially when individuals seem to apply different standards to different groups.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:04 am

Distruzio wrote:I chose 2,3,4,5,7, & 9. Those are the things i believe are necessary for full integration.

So even ethnicity? It's not possible to fully integrate into a society even if you are exactly the same in every way as a native person, except you belong to a different ethnic group?
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:07 am

I don't consider integration to be about sharing committent to any particular political ideal, indeed many native people are divided on the "liberal, democratic values" we're all supposed to share.

Language is a big part of it. I'd say being integrated just means you don't entirely segregate yourself into cultural enclaves and essentially live in a parallel society.
Last edited by Hydesland on Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:07 am

Vassenor wrote:This is one of those things for which there is no one-size-fits-all solutions. Especially when individuals seem to apply different standards to different groups.

That's maybe true, but when the topic is one of the most important things to many people and many voters these days, you need to have some sort of idea of what people mean when they talk about it, no? If we just throw our hands in the air and go 'meh, it means everything and nothing', then how can there ever be a productive discussion or a reasonable policy compromise?
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:08 am

If it doesn't apply to natives it's a double standard to make it apply to immigrants.

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Quintipoli
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Postby Quintipoli » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:12 am

I think what's more important is whether the country the immigrants are going to has the resources to support them. Sweden, for example, has a housing shortage so extreme that people have to wait up to 20 years for rental appartments, yet they're letting in migrants like there's no tomorrow.

That seems like something the leftists in the immigration debate (at least in America) are missing. The left seems to think that we are for some reason obligated to let anybody from any country in, and accuses anybody who raises questions about our economic ability to support large numbers of new immigrants as being racist.
Last edited by Quintipoli on Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:15 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Distruzio wrote:I chose 2,3,4,5,7, & 9. Those are the things i believe are necessary for full integration.

So even ethnicity? It's not possible to fully integrate into a society even if you are exactly the same in every way as a native person, except you belong to a different ethnic group?


Full integration? I dont think so. But full integration isnt necessary to lead a productive life in the adopted nation.
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Quintipoli
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Postby Quintipoli » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:24 am

I don't understand why a lot of the measures of integration above are necessary. I think it enriches a country to have a variety of political views being expressed using different political vocabulary, regardless of whether they are "liberal" or "democratic". For that matter, I also think that having people speaking different languages (to an extent, I mean everybody still has to be able to communicate with each other), being of different ethnic groups, and eating different foods is completely harmless. As long as they are able and willing to function as part of native society without causing problems, it's fine.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:39 am

As long as they follow national laws it's fine. Even speaking the national language is more just a matter of convenience and ease then anything
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:53 am

My only thing is that they be able to sing the national anthem and recite the oath of citizenship (or the equivalent).

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:04 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:My only thing is that they be able to sing the national anthem and recite the oath of citizenship (or the equivalent).

Oh fuck no, some of those anthems are absurdly long
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Postby Arkinesia » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:05 am

I think for immigrants to properly assimilate into American culture, it's necessary to accept liberal democratic political values, as well as being accepting of our norms when it comes to things like accepting LGBT people, not being sexist, etc.

Other than that I don't think there are any other items on this list which are necessary.
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Frank Zipper
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Postby Frank Zipper » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:12 am

Being subject to the same laws as everyone else, that's all that matters to me.
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Postby Secundus Imperium Romanum » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:27 am

Brazil is the greatest example that multiculturalism and immigration can work, having received millions of immigrants from the ukraine to Japan and generated an incredible industrial evolution at the end of the empire (1880s) until the 60s.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:33 am

To me, assimilation is more important and preferable to integration, but for me that necessarily includes that they are obligated, as guests in the new host society, to follow some obligations.
  • Language is critical to assimilate people into the society. If people cannot communicate to one another they invariably alienate each other. In addition, without language life is so much harder for those people to choose to immigrate. Immigrants must learn the language of the nation to adequate proficiency and regularly monitored throughout their residency.
    -
  • As guests in the new host society, new immigrants must show themselves to be knowledgeable about the culture they are entering into, and legally-bind themselves to act within it, and to not make disruptive practices. They must be committed to possibly changing their attitudes and behaviors around certain types of people (women, lgb+ people, transgender people), and behaviours that were 'okay' in their old society, but which are not acceptable in their new society.
    -
  • People with extreme, or otherwise undemocratic, politics be excluded. Don't have to have the same politics, but they just be a threat to the nation's democratic processes. We have enough of a problem with that among our own people in some places.
    -
  • They must not keep their children from assimilating. They must not isolate their children from the language,
    culture, and ir/religion of their new host society. They must not isolate them from the public school system. In essence, they must not violate their child's autonomy to be a fully participatory part of society, or to develop their own identity apart from their parents cultural, religious, or ethnic identity.

In return for good and assimilated immigrants, the government must work to ensure that they are protected and able to prosper in their new home, and ensure they are not alienated by the new host culture. The prevention of segregation and discrimination is likewise, on both sides, of serious importance in order to ensure that new people feel that they are a part of a new community, and that they feel like they belong in the society. Development of enclaves is particularly damaging, and the populations should be integrated, and live alongside each other.
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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:42 am

Options 2 and 5 were the ones I chose.

Regarding option 2, I believe that they should speak the same language as the majority language; however, they shouldn't have to in their homes. I believe that in their own homes, they can use their native language. I also believe that class to learn the majority language should be provided for free.
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Gorgraq Consociation
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Postby Gorgraq Consociation » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 am

I think that if you migrate to a country you should adopt the culture of that nation and abide by the laws and regulations of the land and assimilate into the nation they live in. But even then it should be strictly controlled.

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Gorgraq Consociation
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Postby Gorgraq Consociation » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:58 am

Multiculturalism is also unnecessary as there is already a culture to adopt in the new nation
Last edited by Gorgraq Consociation on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:59 am

None of these things. They have to pay their taxes, follow the laws of the land, and perform a useful function for society. To have a visitors pass or work visa, they have to do these. To become a full citizen, they need to learn the language, vote, and pass a citizenship test based on history and civics.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:05 am

2 and 4 are all that's really necessary

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:07 am

For me, accept the difference in the society, the political leaning and the national language. That is what i'd call "integration". TBH, though, I think it's quite difficult to define the single culture to adopt here. Since, instead of a single, Indonesian culture, we have Javanese, Sundanese, Batak, Minang, Papuans, etc.

EDIT : Oh, and acceptance of religious freedom.
Last edited by Theodosiya on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:07 am

Question.
Are we making a distinction between countries where cultural minorities immigrate to the country and countries that conquer other lands and then suddenly the cultural minorities live there.

The Zulu for example did not 'immigrate' to the British Empire, the Empire came to them.

The same as true of the two empires that are somehow cited as examples of how 'multiculturalism' has somehow failed the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sanctissima
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Postby Sanctissima » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:10 am

In my opinion, neither assimilation nor multiculturalism are particularly good ideas. The former forces immigrants and minorities to completely abandon their cultural practices, and the latter is complete nonsense which can only result in a weakened national identity in the long-term.

Integration is preferable. For someone to integrate, they need to speak their country's official language at least somewhat fluently, be a citizen of only one country (dual-citizenship results in conflicting national loyalties, making full integration impossible), respect their country's laws and adopt at least some of its cultural values. Full assimilation is not required for integration to be successful, but multiculturalism makes any hope of integration extremely difficult, and borderline impossible.

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