Debate on Abrahamic Religions (split from Paris Attacks Thread)

[Setgavarius]

Reminds me of an argument I had with my grandmother.
I support Palestine and she supports Israel (surprise, surprise she's a Southern Baptist).

Her argument was the when the Jews got to Israel, there were already people there. And God told the Jews to kill all those people.

And the shit he pulled with the eygptians.
Also, didn't he like, destroy two cities for being filled with deviants or something?
Or am i remembering that wrong. I don't know, it's been a while since I have read the bible.

Sodom and Gomorrah? Yep, they had fewer than 10 righteous men and got volcano cannons turned on 'em.

[The Novakian Empire]

And the shit he pulled with the eygptians.
Also, didn't he like, destroy two cities for being filled with deviants or something?
Or am i remembering that wrong. I don't know, it's been a while since I have read the bible.

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; the reasons differ but many say it was because of homosexuality.
With the Egyptians, it was to free slaves so I will give him that.

Yeah, but the freeing of the slaves was already happening. God forced the pharaoh to be a dick, just so he could kill shitloads of people.

[Valgora]

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; the reasons differ but many say it was because of homosexuality.
With the Egyptians, it was to free slaves so I will give him that.

Yeah, but the freeing of the slaves was already happening. God forced the pharaoh to be a dick, just so he could kill shitloads of people.

I don't think that the freeing of the slave was already happening.
Unless you are talking about drowning a shitton of Egyptian soldiers in the Red Sea.

[The Novakian Empire]

Yeah, but the freeing of the slaves was already happening. God forced the pharaoh to be a dick, just so he could kill shitloads of people.

I don't think that the freeing of the slave was already happening.
Unless you are talking about drowning a shitton of Egyptian soldiers in the Red Sea.

"There, on Mount Horeb, God revealed to Moses his name YHWH (probably pronounced Yahweh) and commanded him to return to Egypt and bring his chosen people (Israel) out of bondage and into the Promised Land (Canaan). Moses returned to carry out God's command, but God caused the Pharaoh to refuse, and only after God had subjected Egypt to ten plagues did the Pharaoh relent. Moses led the Israelites to the border of Egypt, but there God hardened the Pharaoh's heart once more, so that he could destroy the Pharaoh and his army at the Red Sea Crossing as a sign of his power to Israel and the nations."

[Setgavarius]

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; the reasons differ but many say it was because of homosexuality.
With the Egyptians, it was to free slaves so I will give him that.

Yeah, but the freeing of the slaves was already happening. God forced the pharaoh to be a dick, just so he could kill shitloads of people.

The reason for the plagues appears to be two fold:[3] to answer Pharaoh's taunt, "Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go?",[4] and to indelibly impress the Israelites with God's power as an object lesson for all time, which was also meant to become known "throughout the world".[5][6]

According to the Book of Exodus, God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he would be strong enough to persist in his unwillingness to release the people, so that God could manifest his great power and cause his power to be declared among the nations,[7] so that other people would discuss it for generations afterward.[8] In this view, the plagues were punishment for the Egyptians' long abuse of the Israelites, as well as proof that the gods of Egypt were false and powerless.[9] If God triumphed over the gods of Egypt, a world power at that time, then the people of God would be strengthened in their faith, although they were a small people, and would not be tempted to follow the deities that God proved false. Exodus 9:15–16 (JPS Tanakh) portrays Yahweh explaining why he did not accomplish the freedom of the Israelites immediately: "I could have stretched forth My hand and stricken you [Pharaoh] and your people with pestilence, and you would have been effaced from the earth. Nevertheless I have spared you for this purpose: in order to show you My power and in order that My fame may resound throughout the world."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt#Context

[Karamiko]

God damn it Isis. What makes them think blowing people up and shooting people will make them want to convert to Islam? It just makes us all paranoid.

It's so immature, the terrorists are like, "Oh, these people don't agree with me. Well instead of bringing up evidence of my god's existence or showing people the good side of life in my religion, I'm going to kill and rape their people until they submit. Then everyone will like my opinion!" Do they not realize this is just making people afraid of their belief, and therefore as soon as they escape Isis controlled areas they will likely want to convert to something else?

I think they see themselves as jihadists / holy warriors. They want to kill infidels more than they want to convert them.

[Roosevetania]

Christianity and Islam believe in the same God, so muslims converting to that also kinda makes sense.

No we don't.
Islam is like a spinoff of Christianity. Muslims believe Jesus was just a human prophet, we believe Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible says anyone who denies Jesus as the Son of God is an Anti Christ, so Christians view Muhammad as an Anti Christ while Muslims believe he was just a normal prophet who was spreading Allah's messages. Allah doesn't act like our version of God, Allah actually acts like Christianity's Satan to be honest. Allah says many things are okay that God says are not okay. Islam and Christianity have completely different views on God, hence why we technically do not have the same God and why the religions experience so much conflict.

No, that's completely wrong. Soyouso said that the three Abrahamic religions worship the same god. While Jesus is considered God incarnate or the son of God, he is not typically considered a god.

[Internationalist Bastard]

The degrees to which I'm lost right now is absurd

[The Novakian Empire]

Thank you for that, roose.
So what from I've read, god could've freed them easily, or without doing anything (not hardening the pharaohs heart), but he didn't, because he wanted everyone to see that he was the biggest kid around?
and drown a bunch of eygptians for no reason

[Setgavarius]

Thank you for that, roose.
So what from I've read, god could've freed them easily, or without doing anything (not hardening the pharaohs heart), but he didn't, because he wanted everyone to see that he was the biggest kid around?

More or less, yes.

I presume he drowned an Egyptian army for the same purposes.

[The Novakian Empire]

Why do I get the feeling I would be a way better god than yahweh?

[Soyouso]

I did say it was Abrahamic, but they have too many disagreements on how God is to be considered the worshippers of the same God, their interpretations are way different. By Christian standards Allah is not God, though Muslims believe he is.

If we are talking about interpretations: What about Christians who interpret God differently? Do they not believe in God?

Chrisrians believe Jesus is God's son, they believe that God is merciful but can get pissed, and they believe he behaves as a sort of father/guiding figure towards his human followers and loves his creations enough to send Christ to die for them.

Muslims believe Jesus is just a human prophet, they believe Allah is merciful but can get pissed, and they believe Allah's relationship with his subjects can only be master and slave. Also, Allah permits some things the Christian god does not. For example, Allah was okay with Muhammad marrying and.... "thighing" (let's just say it counts as molestation) a 9 year old girl, but Jesus said not to corrupt or hurt children. Molesting children is both hurting and corrupting them.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Why do I get the feeling I would be a way better god than yahweh?

Hey, give it a shot, all you need to do is achieve godhead

[Valgora]

Why do I get the feeling I would be a way better god than yahweh?

Probably because you're not a dick.
You know what's funny?
A "Christian" just said that.

[Chersonisos]

Sure, both are abrahamic religion. Doesn't mean we share the same God. This claim is beyond stupid, actually.

Yes, it fucking does.

The Abrahamic faiths all believe in God.
Judaism believes in God.
Christianity believes in God.
Islam believes in Allah which means God, and it is the same God.

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran [and Torah, evidently] is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) Whoops, completely wrong, my apologies. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God, which tends to be an interesting debate between "what constitutes a different god" and whatnot.
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

[Setgavarius]

Why do I get the feeling I would be a way better god than yahweh?

You don't believe in acts of violence as essential to cementing your authority and are repulsed at his usage of them to do so, I presume.

I doubt I would be much better, however.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Yes, it fucking does.

The Abrahamic faiths all believe in God.
Judaism believes in God.
Christianity believes in God.
Islam believes in Allah which means God, and it is the same God.

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) believe in as well. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God,
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

Only Christians believe in the three in one rule I thought....except for a few of them

[Valgora]

Yes, it fucking does.

The Abrahamic faiths all believe in God.
Judaism believes in God.
Christianity believes in God.
Islam believes in Allah which means God, and it is the same God.

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) believe in as well. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God,
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

The "three-in-one" God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is only believed by Christians. Jews and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity.
Even some Christians (like me) don't believe in the Trinity.

[Setgavarius]

Yes, it fucking does.

The Abrahamic faiths all believe in God.
Judaism believes in God.
Christianity believes in God.
Islam believes in Allah which means God, and it is the same God.

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) believe in as well. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God, which tends to be an interesting debate between "what constitutes a different god" and whatnot.
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

"Shituf (Hebrew: שִׁתּוּף‎‎; also transliterated as shittuf or schituf; literally "association") is a term used in Jewish sources for the worship of God in a manner which Judaism does not deem to be monotheistic. The term connotes a theology that is not outright polytheistic, but also should not be seen as purely monotheistic. The term is primarily used in reference to the Christian Trinity by Jewish legal authorities who wish to distinguish Christianity from full-blown polytheism. Though a Jew would be forbidden from maintaining a shituf theology, non-Jews would, in some form, be permitted such a theology without being regarded as idolaters by Jews. That said, whether Christianity is shituf or formal polytheism remains a debate in Jewish philosophy."

[Setgavarius]

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) believe in as well. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God,
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

The "three-in-one" God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is only believed by Christians. Jews and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity.
Even some Christians (like me) don't believe in the Trinity.

Are you an arianist?

[The Novakian Empire]

Why do I get the feeling I would be a way better god than yahweh?

You don't believe in acts of violence as essential to cementing your authority and are repulsed at his usage of them to do so, I presume.

I doubt I would be much better, however.

I mean, hey. I'll smite a nigga if I have to, but I won't kill people when the issue can be easily fixed by my human subjects.

[Valgora]

The "three-in-one" God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is only believed by Christians. Jews and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity.
Even some Christians (like me) don't believe in the Trinity.

Are you an arianist?

No, but I do know what you are talking about.

[Internationalist Bastard]

You don't believe in acts of violence as essential to cementing your authority and are repulsed at his usage of them to do so, I presume.

I doubt I would be much better, however.

I mean, hey. I'll smite a nigga if I have to, but I won't kill people when the issue can be easily fixed by my human subjects.

feel like I'd end like a JRPG villain, God King who gets way too controlling

[Chersonisos]

Actually, Jews and Christians use the same set of names for their God, (think Eloi, Jehovah, etc), which I'm fairly sure is different than the 99 that Muslims use.

Also, the Qu'ran is incompatible with the belief in a "three-in-one" God that Christians (and I assume Jews) believe in as well. They disagree on the fundamental nature of God, which tends to be an interesting debate between "what constitutes a different god" and whatnot.
- Source for Claim; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_v ... note-EoQ-1
Verse for content: https://quran.com/4/171

"Shituf (Hebrew: שִׁתּוּף‎‎; also transliterated as shittuf or schituf; literally "association") is a term used in Jewish sources for the worship of God in a manner which Judaism does not deem to be monotheistic. The term connotes a theology that is not outright polytheistic, but also should not be seen as purely monotheistic. The term is primarily used in reference to the Christian Trinity by Jewish legal authorities who wish to distinguish Christianity from full-blown polytheism. Though a Jew would be forbidden from maintaining a shituf theology, non-Jews would, in some form, be permitted such a theology without being regarded as idolaters by Jews. That said, whether Christianity is shituf or formal polytheism remains a debate in Jewish philosophy."

I was wrong on the Jewish part entirely for the trinity, my apologies then. I shouldn't have spoken without really knowing.

Even so, then, differing interpretations of the same texts even within a religion that go against the religious orthodox "main views" on God do raise a question of what constitutes a "different god"

Also, the quoted qu'ran verse mentions specifically that Jesus is not part of God (which, at least in Baptist tradition, holds that God includes "The Father," "The Son," and "The Holy Spirit." - it functionally drops a third of the God that I'm most well aware of. I'm not 100% sure that still constitutes the same

[Internationalist Bastard]

"Shituf (Hebrew: שִׁתּוּף‎‎; also transliterated as shittuf or schituf; literally "association") is a term used in Jewish sources for the worship of God in a manner which Judaism does not deem to be monotheistic. The term connotes a theology that is not outright polytheistic, but also should not be seen as purely monotheistic. The term is primarily used in reference to the Christian Trinity by Jewish legal authorities who wish to distinguish Christianity from full-blown polytheism. Though a Jew would be forbidden from maintaining a shituf theology, non-Jews would, in some form, be permitted such a theology without being regarded as idolaters by Jews. That said, whether Christianity is shituf or formal polytheism remains a debate in Jewish philosophy."

I was wrong on the Jewish part entirely for the trinity, my apologies then. I shouldn't have spoken without really knowing.

Even so, then, differing interpretations of the same texts even within a religion that go against the religious orthodox "main views" on God do raise a question of what constitutes a "different god"

*shrug* I combine two completely unrelated faiths, so these four seem to have the same go to me