Venezuela 2017

[Bakery Hill]

socialists always destroy, never build.

It was inevitable

Why do I feel like your avatar comes from one of those adds on late night tv?

[Hydesland]

Point being, there's a very real chance a right wing govt could make things worse in Venezuela.

As far as I know the opposition ranges from moderate left to centre right - that's preferable to lunatic fringe economy destroying far left.

Yemen on the other hand is facing the world's worst humanitarian crisis at the hands of the Saudis. Them losing this war is going to be much better than any other alternative.

You realize that's exactly what people said about Assad & Syria and Libya & Gaddafi? It's possible the outcome might be great, or it's possible the outcome could be yet another huge power vacuum where extremists can thrive - there's no clear route to a happy ending in the immediate term that I can see.

[MERIZoC]

Point being, there's a very real chance a right wing govt could make things worse in Venezuela.

As far as I know the opposition ranges from moderate left to centre right - that's preferable to lunatic fringe economy destroying far left.

Yemen on the other hand is facing the world's worst humanitarian crisis at the hands of the Saudis. Them losing this war is going to be much better than any other alternative.

You realize that's exactly what people said about Assad & Syria and Libya & Gaddafi? It's possible the outcome might be great, or it's possible the outcome could be yet another huge power vacuum where extremists can thrive - there's no clear route to a happy ending in the immediate term that I can see.

lol if you think extremists arent currently thriving

What are you saying about a power vacuum? There's literally a civil war right now. That is the ultimate result of a power vacuum.

But back to the topic

[Geilinor]

I saw liberals get behind Euromaidan in a major way, especially the establishment Democrats. To insist that people like, I dunno, the DSA, Jeremy Corbyn, JLM and other mainstream significant socialist groups cheer on the Houthis is however a bit ludicrous. Two or three tankies on the internet doesn't represent socialists, who mostly back Rojava from what I've seen.

tbh if you're not cheering on the Houthis against Saudi Arabia, which has caused massive destruction and disease in Yemen, you've got issues

I don't back either side in such sectarian wars. Having sympathy for the people of Yemen is one thing, backing the Houthis is another. If you think the Euromaidan protesters or the MUD are equivalent to the Houthis, you've got issues.

[Herskerstad]

Interestingly, aside from smugglers, it seems that Venezuela is developing a reputation for having the best standards of prostitutes.

Reason is they tend to be women who in other nations would not have to resort to it, go many miles to the docks, service people and only accept US dollars which are presently worth their weight in gold, seeing that the Chavez-Marudo combo has effectively gone full Zimbabwe with their currency, inflated it to worthlessness, nationalised and subsequently trashed industries with natural reserves that would make Saudi Arabia green with envy by letting incompetent party hacks run the ship, that the underground economy now seems to be one of the vital lifelines to basic goods to Venezuelans who'd otherwise not get it.

[Improved werpland]

Crocodile tears. Liberals are far less stupid in choosing which foreign political groups we give lip service to, as evidence by the socialists who celebrate the victory of a militant Islamist group in Yemen whereas liberals produce op-ed after op-ed (sometimes even going too far) about the incompetency of the Ukrainian government.

I saw liberals get behind Euromaidan in a major way, especially the establishment Democrats. To insist that people like, I dunno, the DSA, Jeremy Corbyn, JLM and other mainstream significant socialist groups cheer on the Houthis is however a bit ludicrous. Two or three tankies on the internet doesn't represent socialists, who mostly back Rojava from what I've seen.

Establishment Democrats also amended a law in Congress prohibiting aid to Ukraine getting used by the hyped neo-Nazi militias, if I'm not mistaken. Euromaidan was fine, the problem was that the people who were actually involved in it are too fractious and weak.

Rojava on the other hand isn't an example of leftist maturity. It means support for the Syrian branch of a terrorist cult organization. After they were repressed and lost their main sponsor in the 90's, they literally changed their name five times and then adopted an ideology only Western academics knew about. Yet I have not seen even a little skepticism about the PKK out of the left.

Not that some (especially unreliable, in this case) liberals aren't guilty either:
https://newrepublic.com/article/119939/pkk-not-terrorist-organization-theyre-fighting-isis-terrorists

[Bakery Hill]

I saw liberals get behind Euromaidan in a major way, especially the establishment Democrats. To insist that people like, I dunno, the DSA, Jeremy Corbyn, JLM and other mainstream significant socialist groups cheer on the Houthis is however a bit ludicrous. Two or three tankies on the internet doesn't represent socialists, who mostly back Rojava from what I've seen.

Establishment Democrats also initiated a law in congress prohibiting aid to Ukraine getting used by the hyped neo-Nazi militias if I'm not mistaken. Euromaidan was fine, the problem was that the people who were actually involved in it are too fractious and weak.

Rojava on the other hand isn't an example of leftist maturity. It means support for the Syrian branch of a terrorist cult organization. After they were repressed and lost their main sponsor in the 90's, they literally changed their name five times and then adopted an ideology only Western academics knew about. Yet I have not seen even a little skepticism about the PKK out of the left.

Not that some (especially unreliable, in this case) liberals aren't guilty either:
https://newrepublic.com/article/119939/pkk-not-terrorist-organization-theyre-fighting-isis-terrorists

You don't really keep up with the left then, obviously. Because there's unfortunately too much nitpicking going on by many elements of it.

[The of Japan]

I saw liberals get behind Euromaidan in a major way, especially the establishment Democrats. To insist that people like, I dunno, the DSA, Jeremy Corbyn, JLM and other mainstream significant socialist groups cheer on the Houthis is however a bit ludicrous. Two or three tankies on the internet doesn't represent socialists, who mostly back Rojava from what I've seen.

Establishment Democrats also initiated a law in congress prohibiting aid to Ukraine getting used by the hyped neo-Nazi militias if I'm not mistaken. Euromaidan was fine, the problem was that the people who were actually involved in it are too fractious and weak.

Rojava on the other hand isn't an example of leftist maturity. It means support for the Syrian branch of a terrorist cult organization. After they were repressed and lost their main sponsor in the 90's, they literally changed their name five times and then adopted an ideology only Western academics knew about. Yet I have not seen even a little skepticism about the PKK out of the left.

Not that some (especially unreliable, in this case) liberals aren't guilty either:
https://newrepublic.com/article/119939/pkk-not-terrorist-organization-theyre-fighting-isis-terrorists

Rojava is not a branch of the PKK.

[Improved werpland]

Establishment Democrats also initiated a law in congress prohibiting aid to Ukraine getting used by the hyped neo-Nazi militias if I'm not mistaken. Euromaidan was fine, the problem was that the people who were actually involved in it are too fractious and weak.

Rojava on the other hand isn't an example of leftist maturity. It means support for the Syrian branch of a terrorist cult organization. After they were repressed and lost their main sponsor in the 90's, they literally changed their name five times and then adopted an ideology only Western academics knew about. Yet I have not seen even a little skepticism about the PKK out of the left.

Not that some (especially unreliable, in this case) liberals aren't guilty either:
https://newrepublic.com/article/119939/pkk-not-terrorist-organization-theyre-fighting-isis-terrorists

You don't really keep up with the left then, obviously. Because there's unfortunately too much nitpicking going on by many elements of it.

Really? The only place I've seen differing opinions on this issue is from a few bloggers, some of whom think the PKK is a CIA AstroTurf puppet or something crazy like that.

[MERIZoC]

You don't really keep up with the left then, obviously. Because there's unfortunately too much nitpicking going on by many elements of it.

Really? The only place I've seen differing opinions on this issue is from a few bloggers, some of whom think the PKK is a CIA AstroTurf puppet or something crazy like that.

The Red Kahina take is always a fun one

[Bakery Hill]

You don't really keep up with the left then, obviously. Because there's unfortunately too much nitpicking going on by many elements of it.

Really? The only place I've seen differing opinions on this issue is from a few bloggers, some of whom think the PKK is a CIA AstroTurf puppet or something crazy like that.

Many tankie types think like that and prefer Assad. Local tankie groups all support the PKK funnily enough. Among some anarchists and left-libs there's criticism that they aren't quite anarchists enough "oh no they have prisons and a police force the statist fucks" and also critiques of their in some respects traditional attitudes on gender and sexuality.

[The of Japan]

Really? The only place I've seen differing opinions on this issue is from a few bloggers, some of whom think the PKK is a CIA AstroTurf puppet or something crazy like that.

Many tankie types think like that and prefer Assad. Local tankie groups all support the PKK funnily enough. Among some anarchists and left-libs there's criticism that they aren't quite anarchists enough "oh no they have prisons and a police force the statist fucks" and also critiques of their in some respects traditional attitudes on gender and sexuality.

at least they don't throw gays off rooftops or execute them

[Bakery Hill]

Many tankie types think like that and prefer Assad. Local tankie groups all support the PKK funnily enough. Among some anarchists and left-libs there's criticism that they aren't quite anarchists enough "oh no they have prisons and a police force the statist fucks" and also critiques of their in some respects traditional attitudes on gender and sexuality.

at least they don't throw gays off rooftops or execute them

Some people love to be purists.

[Improved werpland]

Really? The only place I've seen differing opinions on this issue is from a few bloggers, some of whom think the PKK is a CIA AstroTurf puppet or something crazy like that.

Many tankie types think like that and prefer Assad. Local tankie groups all support the PKK funnily enough. Among some anarchists and left-libs there's criticism that they aren't quite anarchists enough "oh no they have prisons and a police force the statist fucks" and also critiques of their in some respects traditional attitudes on gender and sexuality.

That's not healthy skepticism of their motivation though. And this isn't the right thread.

[Tectonix]

As far as I know the opposition ranges from moderate left to centre right - that's preferable to lunatic fringe economy destroying far left.



You realize that's exactly what people said about Assad & Syria and Libya & Gaddafi? It's possible the outcome might be great, or it's possible the outcome could be yet another huge power vacuum where extremists can thrive - there's no clear route to a happy ending in the immediate term that I can see.

lol if you think extremists arent currently thriving

What are you saying about a power vacuum? There's literally a civil war right now. That is the ultimate result of a power vacuum.

But back to the topic

Just to comment on whether an opposition government would work out, my opinion is: probably not. The circumstances for such a government to exist are essentially nil — if they win the presidential election, which they will, then Maduro will just claim the election was fraudulent, and prevent them from taking control. Ousting him would require either domestic military might, which is impossible due to pre-emptive bribing, or international backing, which is laughable unless the UN or some other nearby country genuinely wants to see Venezuela get back on the path of democracy.

[Minoa]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40638313

The opposition intends to create a parallel state to challenge Maduro, by announcing that they would (on Wednesday) set up a national unity government of their own and (on Friday) appoint their own Supreme Court judges.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40638313

The opposition intends to create a parallel state to challenge Maduro, by announcing that they would (on Wednesday) set up a national unity government of their own and (on Friday) appoint their own Supreme Court judges.

Good on them.

Maduro is, after all, attempting to create popular legitimacy for completely disbanding any organizations of the state that are under opposition control. About time the opposition started using their mandate to disband organizations under PSUV control.

[Rio Cana]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40638313

The opposition intends to create a parallel state to challenge Maduro, by announcing that they would (on Wednesday) set up a national unity government of their own and (on Friday) appoint their own Supreme Court judges.

That would set off a civil war which the government would most likely win since they have the military. There is also the possibility that it could set the stage for a break-up of Ven.

[Kubra]

no sides in sectarian war, especially when those sides came together once to throw out the secular modernists back in the 80s.

You can call it "sectarian war" but when innocent people are dying to famine and cholera, there's a very clear good and bad.

nonetheless, back to the western hemisphere

yes there is: those who are fighting, and those caught in fighting.
If it makes you feel better, I'll break out some old sloganeering: neither Saudis nor houthis but international socialism

[Kubra]

Point being, there's a very real chance a right wing govt could make things worse in Venezuela.

As far as I know the opposition ranges from moderate left to centre right - that's preferable to lunatic fringe economy destroying far left.

Yemen on the other hand is facing the world's worst humanitarian crisis at the hands of the Saudis. Them losing this war is going to be much better than any other alternative.

You realize that's exactly what people said about Assad & Syria and Libya & Gaddafi? It's possible the outcome might be great, or it's possible the outcome could be yet another huge power vacuum where extremists can thrive - there's no clear route to a happy ending in the immediate term that I can see.

politics ain't reducible to folks having the right ideological background
Corruption is something anyone can end up having a lot of

[Minoa]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40642772

Sort of a rare moment to have the same opposition to the Maduro regime as Trump despite huge differences in ideology (protectionist conservatism vs. international progressivism with preservation of culture).

The US has threatened sanctions against the regime, although he did not give any details as to what those actions may be. The BBC says that Trump also called Maduro "a bad leader who dreams of becoming a dictator", but I though Maduro was truly in dictatorship territory from the moment he tried to dissolve the National Assembly, on 29 March.

And the referendum results? Near-unanimous opposition to the constituent assembly.

[Bakery Hill]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40642772

Sort of a rare moment to have the same opposition to the Maduro regime as Trump despite huge differences in ideology (protectionist conservatism vs. international progressivism with preservation of culture).

Not at all, unless you think the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I think you and Trump are aligned on more issues than you'd care to admit.

The US has threatened sanctions against the regime, although he did not give any details as to what those actions may be. The BBC says that Trump also called Maduro "a bad leader who dreams of becoming a dictator", but I though Maduro was truly in dictatorship territory from the moment he tried to dissolve the National Assembly, on 29 March.

Then by the same logic Malcolm Fraser was Australia's fuhrer in 1975.

And the referendum results? Near-unanimous opposition to the constituent assembly.

Please, this is lazy. There are almost 20 million registered voters in Venezuela. That means this vote had a turnout of about 30% to 40%. A massive and successful statement on behalf of the opposition sure, but it is for all intents and purposes a plebiscite.

[Bakery Hill]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40638313

The opposition intends to create a parallel state to challenge Maduro, by announcing that they would (on Wednesday) set up a national unity government of their own and (on Friday) appoint their own Supreme Court judges.

That would set off a civil war which the government would most likely win since they have the military. There is also the possibility that it could set the stage for a break-up of Ven.

This is true. It's bad news. But I can't see why any of the parties would act any differently now.

[Minoa]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40642772

Sort of a rare moment to have the same opposition to the Maduro regime as Trump despite huge differences in ideology (protectionist conservatism vs. international progressivism with preservation of culture).

Not at all, unless you think the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I think you and Trump are aligned on more issues than you'd care to admit.

I am no Trump supporter and I take great offence to it, because Trump had a part in escalating my suicidal thoughts.

[Bakery Hill]

Not at all, unless you think the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I think you and Trump are aligned on more issues than you'd care to admit.

I am no Trump supporter and I take great offence to it, because Trump had a part in escalating my suicidal thoughts.

I didn't say you were a Trump supporter, I just think that casting him as the ultimate evil is foolish. You will have plenty of common ground with him, as will I to a degree. To hate him while letting others like Macron, Clinton and Merkel off the hook or even celebrating them is a bad idea. They're all in the same boat.

I hope you are seeking help for your suicidal thoughts.