Venezuela 2017

[Neo Balka]

Whats that? Political violence in a country in turmoil?

Say it aint fucking so.

[G-Tech Corporation]

When I say thugs, I mean men and women paid to commit acts of violence and coordinated by a central authority. I sincerely doubt the opposition has any such members.

So basically only people employed by the state? What a strange and convenient definition.

Oh no, hardly. You can have thugs of any stripe. If, say, a political party was coordinating members to attack rallies held by opponents, those would still be thugs, even if unpaid. But random acts of violence on occasion do not thugs make. Coordination though, like that in use in Venezuela by the Collectives? Thuggery, for sure.

[Bakery Hill]

Western media always covers foreign protests and social conflicts extremely poorly, this from a former Venezuelan university professor is far closer to the truth.

"There is no better indication of the deceptiveness of the mainstream media’s narrative than the spatial nature of the anti-government protests in early 2014 known as the “guarimba” and again this year. The protests are centred in the middle and upper class areas whose mayors belong to the opposition. The strategy behind the protests is for the mass civil disobedience, confrontation with security forces and widespread destruction of public property to spread to the poorer areas.

Certainly, the popular sectors have a long tradition of street protests, particularly over deficient public services. But the popular sectors have remained largely passive, although with more exceptions now than in 2014. Obviously the opposition is banking on greater active popular support than in 2014. Along similar lines, the Chavista United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) has been more damaged by electoral abstention among disenchanted Chavistas than those who end up voting for the opposition. Such electoral behaviour is what explains the Chavista defeat in the December 2014 elections for the National Assembly.

But the Chavista leaders still have an impressive degree of mobilisation capacity, as was demonstrated in two recent marches, one on Venezuelan Independence Day on April 19, and the other on May 1. The nation’s precarious economic situation as well as the complete political turnaround in the hemisphere strengthens the opposition’s hand. Whereas in past political crises, such as the coup attempt in 2002 and the general strike of 2002-2003, the Chavez government was able to count on backing from other Latin American nations including in some cases non-leftist ones. Now Venezuela’s neighbouring governments, in spite of their considerable unpopularity and internal discontent, have explicitly taken up the cause of the Venezuelan opposition.

But at this point I would describe the political situation in Venezuela as a standoff, a far cry from saying that the government is on its last legs. Of course, given the political volatility over the recent past, predictions have to be at best tentative. In an ultimate sense, the popular sectors have the last word. If they were to join the protests, then the statement that the Maduro government is, as you say, on its last legs, would be accurate. The situation would then be similar to that of the Soviet Union in 1991 when the miners began to march against the government, thus signalling the collapse of the regime."

[Bakery Hill]

So basically only people employed by the state? What a strange and convenient definition.

Oh no, hardly. You can have thugs of any stripe. If, say, a political party was coordinating members to attack rallies held by opponents, those would still be thugs, even if unpaid. But random acts of violence on occasion do not thugs make. Coordination though, like that in use in Venezuela by the Collectives? Thuggery, for sure.

Why wouldn't they? They've done it in the past?

The opposition leaders of today are, for the most part, the same ones involved in the coup and general strike of 2002-2003, the same ones who refused to recognise the legitimacy of the electoral processes in 2004 and 2005 and consistently questioned the legitimacy of the National Electoral Council except in those cases in which the government was defeated.

They are also the same ones who refused to recognise Maduro’s triumph in the presidential election of 2013, resulting in about a dozen deaths, and then promoted the four months of protests in 2014 involving civil disobedience on a massive scale along with considerable violence, resulting in 43 deaths including six members of the national guard.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh no, hardly. You can have thugs of any stripe. If, say, a political party was coordinating members to attack rallies held by opponents, those would still be thugs, even if unpaid. But random acts of violence on occasion do not thugs make. Coordination though, like that in use in Venezuela by the Collectives? Thuggery, for sure.

Why wouldn't they? They've done it in the past?

The opposition leaders of today are, for the most part, the same ones involved in the coup and general strike of 2002-2003, the same ones who refused to recognise the legitimacy of the electoral processes in 2004 and 2005 and consistently questioned the legitimacy of the National Electoral Council except in those cases in which the government was defeated.

They are also the same ones who refused to recognise Maduro’s triumph in the presidential election of 2013, resulting in about a dozen deaths, and then promoted the four months of protests in 2014 involving civil disobedience on a massive scale along with considerable violence, resulting in 43 deaths including six members of the national guard.

In exactly what way does that statement support your argument that the opposition is using demonstrable violent coordination? Aside from noting that the National Guard and more government thugs killed at least 37 innocents.

[Bakery Hill]

Why wouldn't they? They've done it in the past?

In exactly what way does that statement support your argument that the opposition is using demonstrable violent coordination? Aside from noting that the National Guard and more government thugs killed at least 37 innocents.

If six members of the National Guard were also killed, maybe that's a sign that this wasn't just a peaceful kumbayah protest? This is shockingly naive.

[G-Tech Corporation]

In exactly what way does that statement support your argument that the opposition is using demonstrable violent coordination? Aside from noting that the National Guard and more government thugs killed at least 37 innocents.

If six members of the National Guard were also killed, maybe that's a sign that this wasn't just a peaceful kumbayah protest? This is shockingly naive.

You'll have to do a damn sight better than that. If you have Collective thugs beating protesters and attacking demonstrations, the more reactionary elements of any movement are going to come to the fore. In any large scale clash of politics on the streets there will be casualties. The only thing the deaths of National Guardsmen argue for is that the repression of the state caused a blowback.

Get me genuine accounts of government activists being deliberately targeted outside of ongoing protests from legitimate sources, and maybe you'll have an argument.

[Costa Fierro]

Pretty much. There's assassinations of Chavista activists left right and centre. But that doesn't fit the narrative does it?

"Assassinations". Do you have sources that these are political assassinations or just the work of random street thugs?

[Major-Tom]

I mean, Bakery Hill, there is demonstrable and objective information that easily shows that Maduro has cracked down on protests and has done so in a very very bad way.

Unless Im misconstruing your point. I've had a few too many, I believe.

[Costa Fierro]

In exactly what way does that statement support your argument that the opposition is using demonstrable violent coordination? Aside from noting that the National Guard and more government thugs killed at least 37 innocents.

If six members of the National Guard were also killed, maybe that's a sign that this wasn't just a peaceful kumbayah protest? This is shockingly naive.

People are going to die if protests get violent. And when you're in a situation like Venezuela is, people are already desperate. They have nothing to lose.

[Bakery Hill]

If six members of the National Guard were also killed, maybe that's a sign that this wasn't just a peaceful kumbayah protest? This is shockingly naive.

You'll have to do a damn sight better than that. If you have Collective thugs beating protesters and attacking demonstrations, the more reactionary elements of any movement are going to come to the fore. In any large scale clash of politics on the streets there will be casualties. The only thing the deaths of National Guardsmen argue for is that the repression of the state caused a blowback.

Get me genuine accounts of government activists being deliberately targeted outside of ongoing protests from legitimate sources, and maybe you'll have an argument.

from legitimate sources

Who are legitimate sources to you? Obviously not any that support the government's narrative? So I'll have to go to the opposition run corporate media then, which surprise surprise will not even mention any of these incidents. Great stuff.

[G-Tech Corporation]

You'll have to do a damn sight better than that. If you have Collective thugs beating protesters and attacking demonstrations, the more reactionary elements of any movement are going to come to the fore. In any large scale clash of politics on the streets there will be casualties. The only thing the deaths of National Guardsmen argue for is that the repression of the state caused a blowback.

Get me genuine accounts of government activists being deliberately targeted outside of ongoing protests from legitimate sources, and maybe you'll have an argument.

from legitimate sources

Who are legitimate sources to you? Obviously not any that support the government's narrative? So I'll have to go to the opposition run corporate media then, which surprise surprise will not even mention any of these incidents. Great stuff.

There are hundreds of legitimate publications who maintain media contacts in Venezuela. If you can't find one that isn't run by the government or, oh, LeftistNews Egypt or the equivalent, you should seriously reconsider the validity of your own viewpoints.

[Bakery Hill]

Pretty much. There's assassinations of Chavista activists left right and centre. But that doesn't fit the narrative does it?

"Assassinations". Do you have sources that these are political assassinations or just the work of random street thugs?

I'm trying to find sources that liberals wouldn't just dismiss offhand, but these stories just aren't getting picked up by establishment news. Bear with me.

[Bakery Hill]

I mean, Bakery Hill, there is demonstrable and objective information that easily shows that Maduro has cracked down on protests and has done so in a very very bad way.

I'm not a hardcore Chavista, I'm just willing to look at nuance and context rather than read a few American establishment media articles and take up a ridiculously one dimensional position.

Unless Im misconstruing your point. I've had a few too many, I believe.

That's the way to post my man.

[Bakery Hill]

If six members of the National Guard were also killed, maybe that's a sign that this wasn't just a peaceful kumbayah protest? This is shockingly naive.

People are going to die if protests get violent. And when you're in a situation like Venezuela is, people are already desperate. They have nothing to lose.

Except the deaths here occurred four years ago in a quite close election which occurred under international monitoring.

[Bakery Hill]

from legitimate sources

Who are legitimate sources to you? Obviously not any that support the government's narrative? So I'll have to go to the opposition run corporate media then, which surprise surprise will not even mention any of these incidents. Great stuff.

There are hundreds of legitimate publications who maintain media contacts in Venezuela. If you can't find one that isn't run by the government or, oh, LeftistNews Egypt or the equivalent, you should seriously reconsider the validity of your own viewpoints.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ve ... sassinated
https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c ... ar-old-boy

What's going on here is a social conflict that is based in class warfare. While the government attempts to put down this increasingly violent rebellion mostly centered in affluent urban suburbs. The government's supporters and sympathisers are being killed to undermine their base. The media is pushing a narrative that ignores this fact. If you want to back the opposition at least do so in a fashion that makes sense.

[Costa Fierro]

Except the deaths here occurred four years ago in a quite close election which occurred under international monitoring.

And? Again, can you prove that it was politically related rather than one of the 19,000 homicides that occur every year there?

[G-Tech Corporation]

There are hundreds of legitimate publications who maintain media contacts in Venezuela. If you can't find one that isn't run by the government or, oh, LeftistNews Egypt or the equivalent, you should seriously reconsider the validity of your own viewpoints.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ve ... sassinated
https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c ... ar-old-boy

What's going on here is a social conflict that is based in class warfare. While the government attempts to put down this increasingly violent rebellion mostly centered in affluent urban suburbs. The government's supporters and sympathisers are being killed to undermine their base. The media is pushing a narrative that ignores this fact. If you want to back the opposition at least do so in a fashion that makes sense.

>legitimate publications

GLD is so far in bed with the "Bolivarian Revolution" it would probably proclaim Chavez Eternal Leader of Venezuela for Life if Maduro said so.

And the Morning Star is literally the mouthpiece of a Communist party.

I mean, if you want, I can cite Stormfront pieces on why Maduro is evil. But that isn't exactly beneficial to a proper debate. You can't find even a single vaguely centrist publication?

[Bakery Hill]

Except the deaths here occurred four years ago in a quite close election which occurred under international monitoring.

And? Again, can you prove that it was politically related rather than one of the 19,000 homicides that occur every year there?

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ve ... sassinated
https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c ... ar-old-boy

What's going on here is a social conflict that is based in class warfare. While the government attempts to put down this increasingly violent rebellion mostly centered in affluent urban suburbs. The government's supporters and sympathisers are being killed to undermine their base. The media is pushing a narrative that ignores this fact. If you want to back the opposition at least do so in a fashion that makes sense.

>legitimate publications

GLD is so far in bed with the "Bolivarian Revolution" it would probably proclaim Chavez Eternal Leader of Venezuela for Life if Maduro said so.

And the Morning Star is literally the mouthpiece of a Communist party.

I mean, if you want, I can cite Stormfront pieces on why Maduro is evil. But that isn't exactly beneficial to a proper debate. You can't find even a single vaguely centrist publication?

Can you prove the government has committed any violence at all? I want to see legitimate sources. Not sources that are/derive from opposition controlled media, they are after all mouthpieces of fascism. I mean I could just read the facts and block out the editorial like I do with everything from Telesur to Breitbart to the Washington Times, but this time I'll just pretend I don't know how journalism, politics or society works and argue in bad faith too.

[Bakery Hill]

Btw I hate to stop you talking out of your arse about something which you know nothing (at first the conflict in Venezuela and now Australian leftist meda) but I read the GLW regularly. They and their sister publications criticise the Maduro administration regularly and rationally. Maybe you should look into them?

http://links.org.au/standoff-in-venezuela
http://links.org.au/critiquing-maduro-from-left

[MERIZoC]

G tech's whining might be a bit more convincing if he bothered to engage with the sources and critique them instead of just complaining about bias. That's a big problem with NSG. Sources are just dismissed out of hand instead of anyone making an effort to evaluate stories. Not how you do media criticism.

[Costa Fierro]

Btw I hate to stop you talking out of your arse about something which you know nothing

Stones in glasshouses.

[Randsbeik]

Wasn't there footage of a Venezuelan tank running through a crowd of protesters?

[G-Tech Corporation]

G tech's whining might be a bit more convincing if he bothered to engage with the sources and critique them instead of just complaining about bias. That's a big problem with NSG. Sources are just dismissed out of hand instead of anyone making an effort to evaluate stories. Not how you do media criticism.

I know bullshit sources when I see them, as should you. Any website that tries to shill a narrative about "big mainstream media not wanting you to know X", from left or right, is pretty fair to dismiss as a crock. Such journalism is the intellectual equivalent of "19 secrets to a cure to cancer BIG PHARMA" doesn't want you to hear.

Btw I hate to stop you talking out of your arse about something which you know nothing (at first the conflict in Venezuela and now Australian leftist meda) but I read the GLW regularly. They and their sister publications criticise the Maduro administration regularly and rationally. Maybe you should look into them?

http://links.org.au/standoff-in-venezuela
http://links.org.au/critiquing-maduro-from-left

....and, case, point. I made it as far as the third paragraph before noting exactly such a narrative being promulgated.

In conclusion, there are enough real centrist sources that are well-researched and neutral in the world that you should be able, with hilariously minimal effort, to find one supporting any given viewpoint in world affairs if that viewpoint isn't utter lunacy.

The fact that the narrative of "muh opposition thugs keeping down the brave Chavistas" lacks such an easy to find form of support disqualifies it from serious discussion, plain and simple.

[Bakery Hill]

G tech's whining might be a bit more convincing if he bothered to engage with the sources and critique them instead of just complaining about bias. That's a big problem with NSG. Sources are just dismissed out of hand instead of anyone making an effort to evaluate stories. Not how you do media criticism.

People are lazy these days. But I suppose nobody ever likes having their opinions challenged.