Venezuela 2017

[Liriena]

Don't get me started on our own economic stupidity.

Stick to what you guys know, good food and dancing.

Stick to what you guys know, good food and dancing.

AND PERON!

Everyone talks about Perón... but does anyone even remember the Turtle?

[Republic of the Cristo]

Stick to what you guys know, good food and dancing.

AND PERON!

Everyone talks about Perón... but does anyone even remember the Turtle?

Good 'ole Arturo... Yeah, I liked him a lot too...

[MERIZoC]

Peers elsewhere in Latin America? Mostly the left has been fantastic. Corerra, Morales, Mujica, etc etc were all great for their countries. Sure you had issues, especially in Brazil and Venezuela, but by and large they have been improvements. Even Chavez was not tooooo bad, until issues really started coming up with the drop in oil prices. I don't see why there's a need for a left leaning opposition when many of the pink tide countries enacted good, left-wing policies.

To be honest, I was speaking mostly in terms of Argentina and, to my embarrassment, kind of forgot all about Correa, Morales and Mujica. Pepe Mujica is a goddamn legend.

Argentina is the one I'm least familiar with so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kaboomlandia]

The scariest part about this is that the country has no money (they're shipping gold to Europe to pay debt), and Maduro is a dictatorial asshat (he cancelled his own recall referendum).

[MERIZoC]

The scariest part about this is that the country has no money (they're shipping gold to Europe to pay debt), and Maduro is a dictatorial asshat (he cancelled his own recall referendum).

Dictatorial is pretty strong. Venezuela is by no means liberal, but it is still a democracy.

[Costa Fierro]

And I have doubts that a new government would be any different. The economy isn't getting better any time soon, and a lot of the opposition are borderline fascists, so you're not gonna see political rights flourish.

I'd like to think that Venezuela would hopefully turn itself around like Colombia has. But that's idealistic at best. Personally I'm just waiting for the reinstatement of "shoot to kill" orders so I can try and watch Chavistas try and justify killing unarmed protesters.

[Kaboomlandia]

The scariest part about this is that the country has no money (they're shipping gold to Europe to pay debt), and Maduro is a dictatorial asshat (he cancelled his own recall referendum).

Dictatorial is pretty strong. Venezuela is by no means liberal, but it is still a democracy.

Might be a bit strong, yes, but Maduro does run the place by decree and the loyal Supreme Court shut down the legislature (run by the opposition).

[Liriena]

To be honest, I was speaking mostly in terms of Argentina and, to my embarrassment, kind of forgot all about Correa, Morales and Mujica. Pepe Mujica is a goddamn legend.

Argentina is the one I'm least familiar with so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Simply put, we don't really have any left-wing party right now which could hope to do as well as the Kirchnerists on a national scale. The Socialist Party barely manages to hold onto its provincial footholds and the Worker's Left Front probably won't get a fifth seat in Congress.

[Costa Fierro]

The scariest part about this is that the country has no money (they're shipping gold to Europe to pay debt), and Maduro is a dictatorial asshat (he cancelled his own recall referendum).

Dictatorial is pretty strong. Venezuela is by no means liberal, but it is still a democracy.

Hasn't stopped Maduro from trying. At the start of this month he tried to get the Supreme Court to strip legislative powers from the opposition controlled congress. The Supreme Court fortunately didn't play ball.

[MERIZoC]

Argentina is the one I'm least familiar with so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Simply put, we don't really have any left-wing party right now which could hope to do as well as the Kirchnerists on a national scale. The Socialist Party barely manages to hold onto its provincial footholds and the Worker's Left Front probably won't get a fifth seat in Congress.

Was Kirchner seen as more left wing early on?

[Distarce]

They need to seize the means of production and kick out all private and American businesses.

Yes, seizing all the means and putting them under the cybernetic system, but first removing that counterrevolutionary liberal democracy breeding external agents and establish the dictatorship of the proletariat (no voice for the bourgeoisie); then substitute it with a delegative (liquid) democracy in combination with the participatory democracy (towards a consensus democracy) in which the capitalist parties don't have a voice (again, dictatorship of the proletariat); then giving self-managed means to the different revolutionary voices of the political spectrum (guns too) and fixing the XXI's century socialist revisionist terminology, plus balancing the wages according to circumstances in the labour-based calculation in time that Dieterich and others proposed.

[Republic of the Cristo]

They need to seize the means of production and kick out all private and American businesses.

Yes, seizing all the means and putting them under the cybernetic system, but first removing that counterrevolutionary liberal democracy breeding external agents and establish the dictatorship of the proletariat (no voice for the bourgeoisie); then substitute it with a delegative (liquid) democracy in combination with the participatory democracy (towards a consensus democracy) in which the capitalist parties don't have a voice (again, dictatorship of the proletariat); then giving self-managed means to the different revolutionary voices of the political spectrum (guns too) and fixing the XXI's century socialist revisionist terminology, plus balancing the works according to circumstances in the labour-based calculation in time that Dieterich and others proposed.

[Liriena]

Simply put, we don't really have any left-wing party right now which could hope to do as well as the Kirchnerists on a national scale. The Socialist Party barely manages to hold onto its provincial footholds and the Worker's Left Front probably won't get a fifth seat in Congress.

Was Kirchner seen as more left wing early on?

As I recall it, Nestor Kirchner was more of a pragmatist with some progressive ideas who was then turned into a more radical progressive symbol by his most ardent supporters, along with his wife and successor. They both definitely leaned closer to Chavez than they did towards, say, Chile's Piñera.

[Costa Fierro]

Peers elsewhere in Latin America? Mostly the left has been fantastic. Corerra, Morales, Mujica, etc etc were all great for their countries.

Ecuador, Bolivia and Uruguay are very different to Venezuela. Ecuador did have a banking crisis in the late 1990's plus a coup in 2004 and it also abandoned its currency in favour of using the US dollar which ultimately stablized the economy and led to resource-fueled growth through oil exports. Correa did do some good in that he invested in infrastructure, healthcare and education and poverty dropped massively, although the latter could be attributed to general economic growth rather than government investment. However Ecuador is also similar to Venezuela in that it is a petrostate so it was going to benefit whenever oil prices shot up, which they did during the 2000's.

Bolivia in turn is also different in that most of it's wealth comes from mining and natural gas, and soon it's going to come from lithium when electric cars start becoming more and more common and the world's automotive companies start courting Bolivia for a steady source of lithium for batteries. Anyway, Bolivia was different in that it did suffer from high inflation but crucially it's middle and upper class is one of the smallest in Latin America and therefore capital flight was never an substantial issue. Morales also didn't go about completing full nationalisation of companies in the mining and natural gas industries, instead he let international companies continue mining operations but took an increased share of the profits, especially in natural gas. This was enough to underpin his economic program, which coupled with his lack of actual socialist financial policies (Morales more or less continued the liberal economic and financial policies of his predecessors but backed it with revenue from mining and natural gas) resulted in strong macroeconomic growth to the point that Bolivia became one of the countries with the highest economic growth during the 2007-2008 financial crisis. This resulted in a construction boom and allowed the government to build good financial reserves and run no fiscal deficits, something which hadn't been accomplished in 30 years. He also did not spend all of the money on social policies, instead doing what Correa did and focused much of his spending on improving infrastructure and bringing essential utilities to places that didn't have them.

Uruguay is again different to all of these countries in that it's one of the wealthiest, most stable and well governed nations in Latin America, ranking first for size of middle class and for the lack of corruption. It also has the benefit of being sandwiched between Argentina and Brazil, which isn't too bad of a situation to be in even if the wheels fall of Argentina's wagon on occasion (and it did so during the turn of the century). Mujica didn't actually have that much to do with the recovery from the economic crisis, in fact it was his predecessors who did most of the hard economic policies whilst Mujica focused on social policies. There's not much more to say other than Uruguay was already fairly economically stable before Mujica was elected.

Sure you had issues, especially in Brazil and Venezuela, but by and large they have been improvements. Even Chavez was not tooooo bad, until issues really started coming up with the drop in oil prices. I don't see why there's a need for a left leaning opposition when many of the pink tide countries enacted good, left-wing policies.

Chavez was trying to fix Venezuela's shitty economic situation which was the result of the Latin American debt crisis of the 1980's. The problem with that was he made a fixed exchange rate of the bolivar with the US dollar and then funneled millions in oil revenue just to sustain it. He also instituted measures to keep it under control which didn't work, as those who could afford to buy US dollars did so and then sold them on for much more bolivars, thus undermining the fixed exchange rate. Rather than do anything about it, he simply blamed America for his problems rather than admit that his financial policies were failing. It also doesn't help that Venezuela is one of the most corrupt countries in Latin America.

[Bakery Hill]

Time to Freedomize them

To turn Venezuela into a Libya and Iraq-style chaos and spread that AIDS through Latin America?. No thanks

Foolproof Plan for Maduro:
1) Class war, all power to the colectivos, expropriate industry.
2) Defend Venzuela from the inevitable Yankee Imperialist attack as a patriotic act, rally the masses to your banner.
3) Break their forces Bay of Pigs style. Release the survivors as a show of good will. Anti war sentiment in US picksup.
4) Begin funding supporting revolutionaries in America to overthrow their corrupt government.
5) Join with the newly liberated United Socialist States of America to liberate all of the Americas.
6) World Socialism in the 21st Century.

7) Cut my dick because it's a Imperialist organ.

This can be done efficiently and safely with no upfront cost under universal healthcare.

[Great Minarchistan]

Yeah. One thing that has consistently bothered me about Chavismo and its peers elsewhere in South America is that, even if you see them as victims of foreign and domestic economic interests leading defamation and destabilization campaigns, they may have successfully neutralized any possibility of a left-leaning opposition that could one day succeed them without doing away with all their good policies and leading a revival of the worst neoliberal policies.

I mean - if you want an example of how neoliberal policies fucked over parts of Latin America, look no further than Argentina. Fucking devalued currency fam.

It was devalued because the Kirchner government spent a considerable amount of money - and therefore turning the budget worse - pegging the currency at artificially low levels, and also restricting the freedom to buy dollars (called cepo if the memory isn't cheating on me). I ain't speaking for the whole argentinian population, but a considerable amount of people supported this "neoliberal" decision. Same happened on Brazil from 1995 to 2001 and from 2010 to 2014.

[Annihitor the Incred]

If a system does not manage to remain running, obviously new management is needed. The territory could be administered by another state until such time as the situation is stabilised. Perhaps Ven could be paid to rent the country out to foreign management for a set period of time, with access to the internal market and economic facilities. This could cover any deficit and leave residual experience of how to efficiently run an economy once self-management is reestablished.

If not, permanent management transfer may not be out of the question.

[Ryock]

If a system does not manage to remain running, obviously new management is needed. The territory could be administered by another state until such time as the situation is stabilised. Perhaps Ven could be paid to rent the country out to foreign management for a set period of time, with access to the internal market and economic facilities. This could cover any deficit and leave residual experience of how to efficiently run an economy once self-management is reestablished.

If not, permanent management transfer may not be out of the question.

Or the military could oust Maduro and set up a junta until things get better.

[Rio Cana]

I'd love to see the partition plan from the 8 people that want to break Venezuela into several nations. Perhaps they could draw it on a napkin like Sebby did for Libya.

Finally someone that wants to see the plan.

The Ven. small state of Tashira joins Colombia. Afterall, its partly an Andean state and historically has had tight relations with the Colombia department of "Norte de Santander". Historically, many of Ven. pres. , many right leaning, came from Tachira. Some got to power by raising
private armies, many cattle hands, in neighboring Colombia and marching all the way to Caracas. Cattle is king in this border area.

Map -

Next is Zulia state. After the fall of Gran Colombia there was some friction between who would get Zulia State. Zulia is oil rich and more independent minded then other Ven. states. Many Zulians tend to feel that the central government in far away Caracas has always used them has a milking cow. They take there oil and they are last on the list for central government money. That bridge that spans Maracaibo lake was built by a right wing dictator back in the 1950's. He built it more to keep Zulians in line since it greatly facilitated the movement of military troops when needed to the Zulian Capital of Maracaibo which is on the left bank of Lake Maracaibo. So they would be an independent Republic.

Looking at this following clickable by state map - http://www.nalsite.com/Servicios/Mapas/ ... asp?pa=204 - After Zulia and Tachira, whats left would be divided into three new Republics. The current power center, where Caracas is, would be made up of Anzontegui, Guarica and those small states North of Guarica. The states of Amazonas, Bolivar, Monagas, Delta and Nueva Esparta would be there own nation. Apure and all States North of Apure would also be joined into one Nation.

So we have four new nations total and one joining Colombia. This should bring much relief and happiness to Brazil, Colombia, Guyana and the US.

Edit - We could add the small state of Merida which borders Tachira to Colombia. We could also add the state of Trujillo which borders Merida to Colombia. Both states are located on a part of the Andes that branches into Ven. See photo of a Andes in Merida - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R5VNSYO_0Kg/T ... zuelaA.png

[Aboim]

Read an article which points out that Ven. since independence days has had an authoritarian Pres./central government which has run things. With each new Pres. came a new economic plan for the whole nation. They say that is the problem. Even though Ven. is a Federal Republic, the individual Ven. States really do not have much power or input on how things are run. For a long time, Governors in Ven. were appointed by the Pres. But even after the people could elect them, these Governors tended to follow the Pres./central governments agenda. Just look at Ven. today. Only three states out of 23 States do not belong to the political party in power. Elections for Governors were to be held last year (seems they have them all at the same time) but the Pres. postponed them. Supposedly, they should be held this year. But you see the power that the pres./ central government has over the States.

An example - In the US each State governor controls his own State militia and National Guard. In Ven. it seems that the State Governors do not control there own State militia or National Guard. They all answer to the Pres./central government. So it does seems power needs to be given to the States and even municipalities. This should keep the cental government in Ven. more in check.

Another big problem should be the militias supported by government. If it's similar to the brazilian militias during dictatorship, torture and the infamous chacina may be usual tools to keep the power and the social control, not to mention extortion and abuse of power. And Maduro can still imitate Pinochet and the disappearances.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/worl ... .html?_r=0
http://elpais.com/elpais/2017/04/27/ine ... 63655.html

[Erutenia]

And instead you would...plunge the country into complete and abject chaos?

Give it to Brazil. No chaos anymore, problem solved. Boom.

Sorry. But no hue allowed. Let's make Colombia great again instead.

[Great Minarchistan]

Give it to Brazil. No chaos anymore, problem solved. Boom.

Sorry. But no hue allowed. Let's make Colombia great again instead.

PLS GRAN COLOMBIA NO

[Liriena]

Sorry. But no hue allowed. Let's make Colombia great again instead.

PLS GRAN COLOMBIA NO

Zombie Bolivar 2018

[Liriena]

If a system does not manage to remain running, obviously new management is needed. The territory could be administered by another state until such time as the situation is stabilised. Perhaps Ven could be paid to rent the country out to foreign management for a set period of time, with access to the internal market and economic facilities. This could cover any deficit and leave residual experience of how to efficiently run an economy once self-management is reestablished.

If not, permanent management transfer may not be out of the question.

Or the military could oust Maduro and set up a junta until things get better.

Because military coups and juntas always end well.

[Surkiea]

I think it's time America liberates that Communist Hellhole.