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Future of Western Civilization

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Nouveau Yathrib
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Future of Western Civilization

Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:52 pm

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017041 ... d-collapse

The political economist Benjamin Friedman once compared modern Western society to a stable bicycle whose wheels are kept spinning by economic growth. Should that forward-propelling motion slow or cease, the pillars that define our society – democracy, individual liberties, social tolerance and more – would begin to teeter. Our world would become an increasingly ugly place, one defined by a scramble over limited resources and a rejection of anyone outside of our immediate group. Should we find no way to get the wheels back in motion, we’d eventually face total societal collapse.

While it’s impossible to predict the future with certainty, mathematics, science and history can provide hints about the prospects of Western societies for long-term continuation.

Safa Motesharrei, a systems scientist at the University of Maryland, uses computer models to gain a deeper understanding of the mechanisms that can lead to local or global sustainability or collapse. According to findings that Motesharrei and his colleagues published in 2014, there are two factors that matter: ecological strain and economic stratification. The ecological category is the more widely understood and recognised path to potential doom, especially in terms of depletion of natural resources such as groundwater, soil, fisheries and forests – all of which could be worsened by climate change.


NSG, where do you think our global Western civilization is heading? Do you think we'll be able to reverse the trends of ecological strain and economic stratification we're seeing today while maintaining our civil liberties and freedoms?
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:58 pm

That article brings to mind an old saying: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:58 pm

I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.

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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:00 pm

New Werpland wrote:I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.

""""""""""no one else wanted"""""""""
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:00 pm

New Werpland wrote:I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.

We 'elected' Trump because our electoral and party system are both legendarily fucked.
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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:03 pm

Aelex wrote:
New Werpland wrote:I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.

""""""""""no one else wanted"""""""""

Well maybe some people, but I really doubt that most people want to pick crops in Georgia or clean someone else's house for a living.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/#3990ed4f492a
Last edited by New Werpland on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:06 pm

New Werpland wrote:Well maybe some people, but I really doubt that most people want to pick crops in Georgia or clean someone else's house for a living.

Do people desire to take these jobs? Let's be honest, no. No one want to do that shit.
Do people want to take them? Yes, because they have families to cloth, house and feed.
Saying that people "didn't want" to take these jobs is both utterly wrong and out of touch with reality.
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Postby Luziyca » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:07 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:That article brings to mind an old saying: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Indeed.

Personally, humanity is pretty much fucked. Even if we try and stop climate change or minimize its effects, such efforts are, quite frankly, too little and too late. Unless there is a massive change to the global economic system and an end to the emphasize on short-term gains at any cost, the damage we have caused will bite us in the ass, and substantially harm humanity.
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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:08 pm


So, in other words, the market takes time to restructure itself after very cheap labor become less common? Big surprise. :roll:
If this trend persist for a couple of years, then you'll have a point. But for now, you really do not.
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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:12 pm

I'm still partially convinced that A Mind Forever Voyaging had it right. For those of you unfamiliar with the story, wikipedia has a wonderful synopsis. The gist is essentially that as a result of a major economic downturn and social decline in the turn of the 2030s, the USA goes balls deep into Reaganism and adopts the following Plan:
  • Cut taxes by fifty percent
  • Vigorous prosecution of tax evasion
  • Massive decentralization of federal responsibilities
  • Massive deregulation of all major industries
  • Reinstatement of the draft
  • Emphasis on fundamentals and traditional values in education
  • Mandatory conscription for criminals
  • A strict "America First" trade policy
  • Termination of aid to nations that aren't vehemently pro-America
  • Cutbacks on all major bureaucratic institutions, including abolishing registries for cars and guns
  • Termination of government subsidies to "outmoded industries"
  • Greatly increased executive branch powers
  • 8-year terms for President

The game's storyline follows the results of this plan (including several acts of legislature and two Constitutional amendments) throughout the decades.
The end result is, essentially, the destruction of the West. After a few decades of prosperity, things begin to slow down. After thirty years the environment has been almost destroyed and large parts of the U.S. are uninhabitable. Social decay has reached savage levels with public executions being popular on television and widespread police brutality is ignored. Most churches have fused into the "Church of God's Word" which leads its followers into violent suppression of other religions. Eventually public executions are replaced by gladiatorial matches between criminals, and "violating America's traditional values" is the number one crime being convicted.
After fifty years, the environment has been devestated with most of America now a wasteland. Society has collapsed as telephone poles were chopped down for firewood. The Church, which has replaced the collapsed government with a theocracy, has legalized slavery for high-ranking members, and outside the gates of Washington humanity mostly exists in tribalism as they compete for the precious few natural resources available for non-elites. Cannibalism is widespread by tribals as food is almost nonexistant.


What scares me the most about this game's plotline is that it was written in 1985, while I see many, many of the points on that list as on the agenda for current far-right politicians currently in power. It almost looks like a Bannon to-do list.
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:13 pm

Luziyca wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:That article brings to mind an old saying: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Indeed.

Personally, humanity is pretty much fucked. Even if we try and stop climate change or minimize its effects, such efforts are, quite frankly, too little and too late. Unless there is a massive change to the global economic system and an end to the emphasize on short-term gains at any cost, the damage we have caused will bite us in the ass, and substantially harm humanity.


This is essentially the TL;DR of Nouveau Yathrib's backstory. What do you propose we do to make humanity slightly less f--ked in the near- and medium-term future?
Last edited by Nouveau Yathrib on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

This account is the predecessor state of Jamilkhuze and Syfenq. This is how they're different, and this is why they exist.

We are currently in the year 2181. About Us | Factbooks | Past and Future History | OOC Info | Public Relations | iiWiki | Q&A

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New Werpland
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Postby New Werpland » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:20 pm

Aelex wrote:

So, in other words, the market takes time to restructure itself after very cheap labor become less common? Big surprise. :roll:
If this trend persist for a couple of years, then you'll have a point. But for now, you really do not.

It already has persisted for a couple of years, that article was from 2012.

Here's a recent one:
http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-agriculture/2016/04/looming-crop-losses-as-farmers-face-labor-shortages-clinton-sanders-sharply-disagree-on-soda-tax-uk-ag-minister-its-gonna-be-lonely-213910

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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:21 pm

Aelex wrote:

So, in other words, the market takes time to restructure itself after very cheap labor become less common? Big surprise. :roll:
If this trend persist for a couple of years, then you'll have a point. But for now, you really do not.

That article was written in 2012.

It is currently 2017.

Here's an article from this year detailing the continuing problems.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-g ... 1490829265

So yeah, they do have a fuckin' point.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:27 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Luziyca wrote:Indeed.

Personally, humanity is pretty much fucked. Even if we try and stop climate change or minimize its effects, such efforts are, quite frankly, too little and too late. Unless there is a massive change to the global economic system and an end to the emphasize on short-term gains at any cost, the damage we have caused will bite us in the ass, and substantially harm humanity.


This is essentially the TL;DR of Nouveau Yathrib's backstory. What do you propose we do to make humanity slightly less fucked in the near- and medium-term future?

Apart from a radical shift in our economic system and living habits, there's nothing we can do.
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Postby Randsbeik » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:14 pm

Honestly, as long as seasteading becomes a possibility before the collapse, I don't give a damn.
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Postby Rio Cana » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Aelex wrote:So, in other words, the market takes time to restructure itself after very cheap labor become less common? Big surprise. :roll:
If this trend persist for a couple of years, then you'll have a point. But for now, you really do not.

That article was written in 2012.

It is currently 2017.

Here's an article from this year detailing the continuing problems.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-g ... 1490829265

So yeah, they do have a fuckin' point.


Robots/Androids will do the work sometime in the future. Of course, you better hope they do not get too smart and decide they do not need people.

Read this - https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careers ... ss-BBv6yiU
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:37 pm

Well - I think for the last several decades, the West in particular has been progressing and doing a relatively decent job, despite so many drawbacks. But a lot of angry people in the last few years, across the West, have staged one last and final backlash at the society they see changing around them.

My biggest concerns are climate change and how third world countries can develop sustainably, and also destructive foreign and economic policies being pursued in several countries.

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Postby Telconi » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:39 pm

New Werpland wrote:I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.


Any president is elected by a coalition of voters who all have different reasons for voting for this person. For example, I don't give a dove's ass feather about his immigration rhetoric, in fact I oppose it. However, I still support him for other reasons. To presume that half of this country is filled with South Park characters shouting about taken jobs is foolish.
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:42 pm

Telconi wrote:
New Werpland wrote:I don't know really. We elected Donald despite not really being in that bad of an economic situation and partially due to outrage that certain people were taking jobs no one else wanted.


Any president is elected by a coalition of voters who all have different reasons for voting for this person. For example, I don't give a dove's ass feather about his immigration rhetoric, in fact I oppose it. However, I still support him for other reasons. To presume that half of this country is filled with South Park characters shouting about taken jobs is foolish.


South Park's caricatures are exaggerated intentionally, anyways. Gotta love it, really.

I figured you wouldn't be a Trump guy. I mean - he's frequently flip flopped on the issue of protectionism, has had a disregard for many 1st Amendment tenets, has turned into a neocon, has shown a total lack of experience and discipline, and has gutted funding for the EPA and will do nothing to improve our healthcare and education systems.

Why anyone supports him at this point, regardless of their beliefs, is beyond me at this point.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Major-Tom wrote:South Park's caricatures are exaggerated intentionally, anyways. Gotta love it, really.

I figured you wouldn't be a Trump guy. I mean - he's frequently flip flopped on the issue of protectionism, has had a disregard for many 1st Amendment tenets, has turned into a neocon, has shown a total lack of experience and discipline, and has gutted funding for the EPA and will do nothing to improve our healthcare and education systems.

Why anyone supports him at this point, regardless of their beliefs, is beyond me at this point.

He has a good number of supporters who support him for one or both of the following:

1. Anti-liberalism - if the liberals hate him, he has to be doing something right! (ignoring the conservatives who despise the man)

2. Strongman populism - they don't care what he does, only that he does it. They follow him, not his ideology or policy claims. Fuehrerprinzip.
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:South Park's caricatures are exaggerated intentionally, anyways. Gotta love it, really.

I figured you wouldn't be a Trump guy. I mean - he's frequently flip flopped on the issue of protectionism, has had a disregard for many 1st Amendment tenets, has turned into a neocon, has shown a total lack of experience and discipline, and has gutted funding for the EPA and will do nothing to improve our healthcare and education systems.

Why anyone supports him at this point, regardless of their beliefs, is beyond me at this point.

He has a good number of supporters who support him for one or both of the following:

1. Anti-liberalism - if the liberals hate him, he has to be doing something right! (ignoring the conservatives who despise the man)

2. Strongman populism - they don't care what he does, only that he does it. They follow him, not his ideology or policy claims. Fuehrerprinzip.


Very true. I was speaking rhetorically anyways.

I mean, I got a kick out of some smug people freaking out over Hillary's loss. I had a feeling in my gut she wouldn't make it. Doesn't mean I liked Trump at the time, I just occasionally grinned when I saw all the fighting. Bit selfish in retrospect.

Also true.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:50 pm

Major-Tom wrote:Very true. I was speaking rhetorically anyways.

I mean, I got a kick out of some smug people freaking out over Hillary's loss. I had a feeling in my gut she wouldn't make it. Doesn't mean I liked Trump at the time, I just occasionally grinned when I saw all the fighting. Bit selfish in retrospect.

Also true.

If it had been anyone but Trump, I probably would've snickered at Hillary's loss instead of sleeping for a day and a half despite (or maybe because of?) being fairly far left. Alas, alack.
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:54 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:Very true. I was speaking rhetorically anyways.

I mean, I got a kick out of some smug people freaking out over Hillary's loss. I had a feeling in my gut she wouldn't make it. Doesn't mean I liked Trump at the time, I just occasionally grinned when I saw all the fighting. Bit selfish in retrospect.

Also true.

If it had been anyone but Trump, I probably would've snickered at Hillary's loss instead of sleeping for a day and a half despite (or maybe because of?) being fairly far left. Alas, alack.


Yeah, issue is a lot of people didn't care for Trump, but when he went after Hillary, a lot of Americans were delighted. Hillary is honestly one of the least likable people in the history of American politics. Objectively, she is better than Donald, she just has the hardest time at the game of likability.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:55 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Any president is elected by a coalition of voters who all have different reasons for voting for this person. For example, I don't give a dove's ass feather about his immigration rhetoric, in fact I oppose it. However, I still support him for other reasons. To presume that half of this country is filled with South Park characters shouting about taken jobs is foolish.


South Park's caricatures are exaggerated intentionally, anyways. Gotta love it, really.

I figured you wouldn't be a Trump guy. I mean - he's frequently flip flopped on the issue of protectionism, has had a disregard for many 1st Amendment tenets, has turned into a neocon, has shown a total lack of experience and discipline, and has gutted funding for the EPA and will do nothing to improve our healthcare and education systems.

Why anyone supports him at this point, regardless of their beliefs, is beyond me at this point.


Because he doesn't have to be good, he only has to be better than Hillary Clinton. A candidate so bad, my cat buries superior choices every day. Also, to perhaps dispel some confusion, guns and abortion, that's why.

This brings us to the issue of a broken electorate system, I agree with Conservative Morality on that issue. As long as this FPTP electoral college exists, we will continue experiencing a race to the bottom with candidates.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Telconi wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
South Park's caricatures are exaggerated intentionally, anyways. Gotta love it, really.

I figured you wouldn't be a Trump guy. I mean - he's frequently flip flopped on the issue of protectionism, has had a disregard for many 1st Amendment tenets, has turned into a neocon, has shown a total lack of experience and discipline, and has gutted funding for the EPA and will do nothing to improve our healthcare and education systems.

Why anyone supports him at this point, regardless of their beliefs, is beyond me at this point.


Because he doesn't have to be good, he only has to be better than Hillary Clinton. A candidate so bad, my cat buries superior choices every day. Also, to perhaps dispel some confusion, guns and abortion, that's why.

This brings us to the issue of a broken electorate system, I agree with Conservative Morality on that issue. As long as this FPTP electoral college exists, we will continue experiencing a race to the bottom with candidates.


Hillary is a career liar and asshole, but not to the extent of Trump. I'd rather have her in the Oval Office. I'm very pro 2nd amendment, and even I'd rather have Hillary.

I'd prefer a Presidential System akin to the one in France, where we have two rounds. Many states have it, I could see it working here. Or, better yet, a proportional system, but for our country, that is totally unrealistic.

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