[UK] General Election 2017 Superthread

[Vassenor]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I thought we were supposed to be freeing ourselves from the tyranny of European ideas.

[Frank Zipper]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

This is somewhat relevant.

Indeed.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

Eww. Is this how UKIP's going to remain relevant?

[Dumb Ideologies]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

[Frank Zipper]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

I dislike the idea of the government involving itself in peoples' choice of hat.

[South Schleswig]

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

I dislike the idea of the government involving itself in peoples' choice of hat.

If we're gonna ban one, gotta ban 'em all. No nuns' habits, Jewish kippahs or Sikh turbans. Ban ban ban.

[Imperializt Russia]

Unless Corbyn can radically (hehe) change the narrative in the next month and a half, he and his party is fucked.

I think May's problem is that a lot of Tory voters might not see the need for this election. So whereas Cameron benefitted from shy tories, May might suffer from voter fatigue.

Except voter fatigue will probably affect other parties more than the Tories.
The Tories might lose out in swing seats, but their core demographics are stalwart voters.

[Imperializt Russia]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

Can you demonstrate this?

IIRC even in France, statistics suggested that a mere 2000 or so women nationwide wore a full-face veil (which was also likely in almost all case to be a niqab, not a burka. The burka is native to Afghanistan and not widely worn outside that region), which - assuming (incorrectly) that all French muslims were of middle eastern ethnicities and featured a 50/50 gender split - accounts to maybe 7 percent of 1 percent of the estimated French female Muslim population.

(France's Muslim population is widely estimated at around 5 million)

[Philjia]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

You want to ban people wearing the wrong sort of hat?

[Uan aa Boa]

I think Scotland will eventually come around to Labour when Labour offers them concessions. The SNP are a useless party.

I'm not sure there's much Labour can offer Scotland that the SNP won't. Labour aren't seen as the standard-bearers of unionism anymore, that mantle has passed to Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories and there's no reason for progressively-minded moderate nationalists to switch to Labour when the SNP are presenting themselves - falsely or not - as a party of the left.

I don't get this suggestion that the SNP are "presenting" as a party of the left. In government they've provided free university education, free prescriptions, free personal care and extended free nursery education. Unashamedly anti-Trident, anti-austerity and pro-immigration and unanimously against intervention in Syria, they've also avoided the messes caused by the increasing role of market forces in English health and education policy.

There's simply no reason to vote Labour when the SNP are delivering traditional Labour-style policies that the party at a UK level abandoned years ago. It's left Labour in Scotland having to define itself as all about the Union, but's that's pretty awkward for them because, in terms of traditional Labour values, the Union is obviously neutral i.e. you could pursue a Labour agenda equally well in the UK or in an independent Scotland. Yet after sharing the ConDem platform that panicked and rushed up here in September 2014, Ed Miliband told us that he'd rather see the Tories in government than so much as discuss cooperation with anyone not committed to the Union. Jeremy Corbyn, renowned for his enthusiasm for talking to Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA, has similarly maintained that supporters of Scottish independence are untouchable despite the fact that SNP MPs have gone into the division lobby with him more often than his own deputy leader. Don't underestimate the lasting resentment held by long term Labour supporters in Scotland.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

Can you demonstrate this?

IIRC even in France, statistics suggested that a mere 2000 or so women nationwide wore a full-face veil (which was also likely in almost all case to be a niqab, not a burka. The burka is native to Afghanistan and not widely worn outside that region), which - assuming (incorrectly) that all French muslims were of middle eastern ethnicities and featured a 50/50 gender split - accounts to maybe 7 percent of 1 percent of the estimated French female Muslim population.

(France's Muslim population is widely estimated at around 5 million)

I'm not sure if you meant to respond to my post, as very little of what you said has any direct relation to what I posted (this seems to be becoming a bit of a theme). I didn't make any suggestion of numbers or suggest that there were thousands unaccounted for (perhaps hanging upside down from the ceilings of mosques like bats?!) If something is wrong, it should be tackled, even if it does not impact upon many thousands. These groups are quite concentrated in particular areas of the country, and so locally the issue can still contribute to a lack of integration between communities.

There have been relatively few accounts of experiences from those forced into wearing burkas. You may suggest that those who have spoken out (usually after to some extent breaking with their religious background, or at least the more radical version) are therefore not representative, but there is an access issue for social research - the very nature of their situation is that those in such families cannot easily speak out without reprisals.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

While you might have a point about integration (though I don't think the state should be in the business of forcing people to integrate), the second point is just silly. Some people are forced to have sex, but you don't ban sex, you just prosecute rapists.

[Imperializt Russia]

Can you demonstrate this?

IIRC even in France, statistics suggested that a mere 2000 or so women nationwide wore a full-face veil (which was also likely in almost all case to be a niqab, not a burka. The burka is native to Afghanistan and not widely worn outside that region), which - assuming (incorrectly) that all French muslims were of middle eastern ethnicities and featured a 50/50 gender split - accounts to maybe 7 percent of 1 percent of the estimated French female Muslim population.

(France's Muslim population is widely estimated at around 5 million)

I'm not sure if you meant to respond to my post, as very little of what you said has any direct relation to what I posted (this seems to be becoming a bit of a theme). I didn't make any suggestion of numbers or suggest that there were thousands unaccounted for (perhaps hanging upside down from the ceilings of mosques like bats?!) If something is wrong, it should be tackled, even if it does not impact upon many thousands. These groups are quite concentrated in particular areas of the country, and so locally the issue can still contribute to a lack of integration between communities.

There have been relatively few accounts of experiences from those forced into wearing burkas. You may suggest that those who have spoken out (usually after to some extent breaking with their religious background, or at least the more radical version) are therefore not representative, but there is an access issue for social research - the very nature of their situation is that those in such families cannot easily speak out without reprisals.

I was responding to your post.

The first statement, of course, was asking if you could demonstrate the statement of being forced to wear the full veil and therefore this is a good reason to prohibit its wearing in public. I'm sure a number of women, even in the west, who wear the full veil are forced to.
I object to the use of the descriptor "many", which we can't currently qualify.
Even so, if these women are being actually forced to wear it in public by their husbands or other male relatives, do you not think it would be likely that these male relatives would simply restrict these women's ability to leave their homes? I don't see it being productive on that basis, in fact arguably increasing the harm that may be occurring.

The second statement was a much more generalised statement on the notion of "burka bans" in general and why it's right-wing dogwhistling crap when seriously used as a "security measure", as Nuttall is claiming at the minute, and as the French originally claimed in their original ban.
Do you think a burka ban would stop people willing to use a burka to disguise themselves to commit crimes? I don't.

So it's still unproductive.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

While you might have a point about integration (though I don't think the state should be in the business of forcing people to integrate), the second point is just silly. Some people are forced to have sex, but you don't ban sex, you just prosecute rapists.

Sure. If there was a disproportionate level of rape in a particular community there should obviously be a wider investigation, and a wider conversation about how to alter the cultural practices that helped to lead to that.

I don't fully understand why you've made this analogy as it's not obvious how we disagree. Ideally don't use metaphors like this as by their very nature you're trying to compare apples with oranges and it can be very misleading.

[Philjia]

While you might have a point about integration (though I don't think the state should be in the business of forcing people to integrate), the second point is just silly. Some people are forced to have sex, but you don't ban sex, you just prosecute rapists.

Sure. If there was a disproportionate level of rape in a particular community there should obviously be a wider investigation, and a wider conversation about how to alter the cultural practices that helped to lead to that.

I don't fully understand why you've made this analogy as it's not obvious how we disagree. Ideally don't use metaphors like this as by their very nature you're trying to compare apples with oranges and it can be very misleading.

It's a hat. You can criticise the hat, question the hat, and campaign against the hat, but at the end of the day it is just a hat. Banning hats you don't like is not a particularly good precedent to be setting, especially when you're supposed to be getting the hat wearers on your side.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The second statement was a much more generalised statement on the notion of "burka bans" in general and why it's right-wing dogwhistling crap when seriously used as a "security measure", as Nuttall is claiming at the minute, and as the French originally claimed in their original ban.
Do you think a burka ban would stop people willing to use a burka to disguise themselves to commit crimes? I don't.

So it's still unproductive.

It wouldn't lead to the outcomes that they're suggesting on that particular issue, no, but in terms of cultural integration I feel it would have long-term benefits. Look, I don't vote UKIP - we both know that - and I don't recognise the fine detail of their reasoning as being the same as mine. I don't need to do so in order to feel that the idea itself is a good one.

Okay - a "good faith" moment, here. I realise I'm being snippy again. I don't mean to have a go at you specifically, it just grinds my gears how regularly I have to yank entire paragraphs of words I don't agree with back out of my mouth after you and a few others keep trying to shove them in. Everyone managed to understand me very easily back in the days when I was more conventionally liberal, and I don't think I've so badly lost my ability to articulate through the written word. That leads to wondering whether some people "misinterpret" on purpose, and once you go down that road it's very easy to get snarky with everyone because you're half-wondering if they're trying it on.

I'll try and be less snarky, but in return can you please respond to the points I'm actually making rather than responding to my posts with tangential information about why some other people who also support said policy for different reasons happen to do so? What benefit is it providing for you to keep responding to my posts with 75% of the response relating to what someone else believes? What do you intend for me to do with this information? Otherwise, from this end of the conversation it looks a lot like you're trying to sneakily suggest I'm lying about my motives.

[Imperializt Russia]

While I do occasionally do that to people, I don't believe I did that to you here.

What do you think I've taken wildly out of context or tried to put into your mouth?
Let's rectify this before we try and press on.

[Salandriagado]

She's already powerful enough to push through the Dirty Brexit. This election could make her powerful enough to arrange a clean one.

May is powerful enough to do anything she wants so long as Corbyn remains leader of the Labour Party. Your analysis makes a lot of sense if we assume that Remainers were guaranteed not to regain power in the Labour Party before 2020, and that May would be riding as high in the polls in 2020 as she is now despite any Brexit shenanigans. I'm not sure either of those are safe assumptions. Her explanation that she wants a solid Tory majority to do Brexit and a term that extends considerably beyond the Article 50 period to reduce the EU's ability to leverage British internal politics in the negotiations us plausible. I accept your explanation is also plausible though.

She isn't, though: there are enough hardliners in the Tory party that will vote against anything reasonable that she needs to listen to their shite. Presumably, she's trying to fix that.

[Dumb Ideologies]

While I do occasionally do that to people, I don't believe I did that to you here.

What do you think I've taken wildly out of context or tried to put into your mouth?
Let's rectify this before we try and press on.

The suggestion that only 2000 women in France wear the burka didn't relate to anything I said and reads like an insinuation I was suggesting there was a flood or tidal wave of people dressing like this.

The comment yesterday that I was "trying quite hard to dodge" the label of racist looks like a "you protest too much".

Again, yesterday, with one hand noting that you didn't have to be a racist to want lower immigration and then with the other asking me to refute or conceded that my position on refugees was about "brown people with backwards views". If you weren't asserting that it was my position, why would I need to refute it as you asked?

Going back further, of course, there's when you defended Sous dragging up personal information without my permission as a political beating stick, and then tutted at length about the appropriateness of the tone of my response. Again, pretty disingenuous - I don't believe you're foolish enough to have really thought that my behaviour was the problem in that conversation.

You can understand how I'm starting to see a pattern of playing silly games?

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

May is powerful enough to do anything she wants so long as Corbyn remains leader of the Labour Party. Your analysis makes a lot of sense if we assume that Remainers were guaranteed not to regain power in the Labour Party before 2020, and that May would be riding as high in the polls in 2020 as she is now despite any Brexit shenanigans. I'm not sure either of those are safe assumptions. Her explanation that she wants a solid Tory majority to do Brexit and a term that extends considerably beyond the Article 50 period to reduce the EU's ability to leverage British internal politics in the negotiations us plausible. I accept your explanation is also plausible though.

She isn't, though: there are enough hardliners in the Tory party that will vote against anything reasonable that she needs to listen to their shite. Presumably, she's trying to fix that.

What's there to vote on? The Tory hardliners oppose parliament voting on the deal and they have pretty much succeeded removing parliament from the equation. I also find it hard to believe that Labour and the Lib Dems would back Tory hardliners against a moderate settlement.

[Ifreann]

http://theliberal.ie/bertie-ahern-comes-out-swinging-itll-be-a-tory-landslide-in-the-british-general-election-as-jeremy-corbyn-the-worst-leader-in-living-memory/

Bertie, a ledge from Ireland who brokered a peace deal by not speaking English properly, doesn't think Corbyn can win it .

Why in the name of all that's good and true would anyone interview Bertie Ahern about this election? In fact, why interview Bertie Ahern about anything? Go away, Bertie.

---

I thought at first the Paul Nuttall was asking for a burger van, but it turns out it is a burka ban he is after. Does anybody support importing that French idea here?

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

I don't see how banning the veil will do anything to address either of those issues.

[Vassenor]

http://theliberal.ie/bertie-ahern-comes-out-swinging-itll-be-a-tory-landslide-in-the-british-general-election-as-jeremy-corbyn-the-worst-leader-in-living-memory/

Bertie, a ledge from Ireland who brokered a peace deal by not speaking English properly, doesn't think Corbyn can win it .

Why in the name of all that's good and true would anyone interview Bertie Ahern about this election? In fact, why interview Bertie Ahern about anything? Go away, Bertie.

---

I support a ban on the full-face veil. Complete coverage is an extreme form of self-segregation that drastically impedes integration, and many are offered no choice but to wear them or suffer abuse, whether emotional or physical, from their families and community.

I don't see how banning the veil will do anything to address either of those issues.

Because it's a way of being seen to be doing something. Like just about every other security measure.

[The Wolfiad]

http://theliberal.ie/bertie-ahern-comes-out-swinging-itll-be-a-tory-landslide-in-the-british-general-election-as-jeremy-corbyn-the-worst-leader-in-living-memory/

Bertie, a ledge from Ireland who brokered a peace deal by not speaking English properly, doesn't think Corbyn can win it .

Why in the name of all that's good and true would anyone interview Bertie Ahern about this election? In fact, why interview Bertie Ahern about anything? Go away, Bertie.

I thought he was like the Irish JFK.

http://theliberal.ie/wp-content/uploads ... ertie2.jpg

Look at that smile. The smile of a God.

[Ifreann]

Why in the name of all that's good and true would anyone interview Bertie Ahern about this election? In fact, why interview Bertie Ahern about anything? Go away, Bertie.

I thought he was like the Irish JFK.

http://theliberal.ie/wp-content/uploads ... ertie2.jpg

Look at that smile. The smile of a God.

Some people, I'm sure, still like Bertie.

[The Wolfiad]

I thought he was like the Irish JFK.

http://theliberal.ie/wp-content/uploads ... ertie2.jpg

Look at that smile. The smile of a God.

Some people, I'm sure, still like Bertie.

Like who?

In other news...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 99776.html

The last time the Tories had a majority of seats in Wales was at the start of Queen Victoria's reign.