[UK] General Election 2017 Superthread

[Olerand]

Macron is essentially Blair. Which means that he wouldn't be considered left, anymore, by the UK left, but would still be "to the left" on the UK political spectrum at large.

Not really, Macron is a puppet to EU elitists, so if we consider Corbyn as being left on UK spectrum, then Macron isn't really left if compared to UK spectrum, after all, he isn't supported by workers

Macron is to the left, however, in a UK sense, because the UK's center is to the right. He is not of the left, by any means, but he is "to the left", in a British understanding.

[Geilinor]

May is going to go down as one of the worst prime ministers ever.

Worse than Blair?

I thought that would be a given.

[Questers]

As far as I'm aware, Macron supports the broad consensus in France - (1) that means much more welfare spending than Corbyn is proposing, and (2) part-ownership of the state in the country's major utilities, (3) including nationally owned rail and energy companies. (4) So while Macron might be "Blair", he's French Blair. And French Blair is very left wing in this country.

1- Yes, and no. He's "in the middle" on the welfare State in France (he wants to cut costs, but supports instituting a universal unemployment welfare, as opposed to the current system where those who quit their job cannot file for unemployment). However, of course, the welfare State is already broader and more liberal in its spending in France than the UK, and this is just the baseline one is working from. So if Macron is "to the center" on this, it makes him "to the left" in the UK, but I wouldn't say to the left of Corbyn.
2- A given really. Everyone from the radical right to the radical left in France believes in the necessity of the State maintaining shares in vital industries, like defense, energy, etc.
3- Yes, and no. He has not proposed to privatize the SNCF, but per EU rules, rail will be open to competition in 2021. We will see what Macron thinks of the SNCF then. EDF is also publicly owned up to 85% or so I believe, though every successive government (including those of the left) have sold parts of it in efforts to get some cash quick, back when the energy market hadn't collapsed and EDF was still worth something. I predict a future for EDF like that of what is now Engie, previously GDFSuez, and before that Gaz de France; slow and gradual privatization. Politicians might promise otherwise, as the right did in the mid-2000s when it merged GDF and Suez, and they promised the State will maintain a majority share, then the State only maintained 1/3, but (mostly) privatization is inevitable.
4- True, to an extent. He is Blairite, but in France. The center being to the left in France of course means he is to the left of the UK center, even though he is centrist and by no means of the left. That does not mean he is to the left of Corbyn, however.

France's government owns shares in much more than defence and energy. Remember that my post was just in reply to what Hydesland said (which is not a totally unfair analysis) that we now think that centrism here is dead but when Macron won nobody had anything to say - well, it seems to me that what the centrist consensus is in France is similar enough to what the left-wing consensus is here. France is a more leftist country than Britain. We all know that, surely.

[Eol Sha]

Worse than Cameron?

Despite the EU referendum, Cameron was politically smart. He wouldn't have called a useless snap election and lost a majority. He was also socially centrist so that's a plus.

I'm not sure how one could call the man behind Brexit smart. That's not just a political mistake or a gaffe. That's the political miscalculation of a generation.

[Questers]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

[Hydesland]

As far as I'm aware, Macron supports the broad consensus in France - that means much more welfare spending than Corbyn is proposing, and part-ownership of the state in the country's major utilities, including nationally owned rail and energy companies. So while Macron might be "Blair", he's French Blair. And French Blair is very left wing in this country.

Just check his wiki:

"Macron has been described by some observers as a social liberal[59][60][61][62][63] and by others as a social democrat.[64][65][66] During his time in the French Socialist Party, he supported the party's centrist wing,[67] whose political stance has been associated with "third way" policies advanced by Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and Gerhard Schröder, and whose leading spokesman has been former prime minister Manuel Valls.[68][69][70][71] Overall Macron is largely seen as a centrist.[2][4][5][7][9][10]

Macron has notably advocated in favor of the free market and reducing the public-finances deficit.[72] He first publicly used the term "liberal" to describe himself in a 2015 interview with Le Monde. He added that he is "neither right nor left" and that he advocates "a collective solidarity".[73][74] During a visit to the Puy du Fou in Vendée with Philippe de Villiers in August 2016, he stated, "Honesty compels me to say that I am not a socialist."[75] He explained that he was part of the "left government" because he wanted "to serve the public interest" as any minister would.[76] In his book Revolution, published in November 2016, Macron presents himself as both a "leftist" and a "liberal ... if by liberalism one means trust in man."[77] With his party En Marche!, Macron's stated aim is to transcend the left–right divide in a manner similar to François Bayrou or Jacques Chaban-Delmas, asserting that "the real divide in our country ... is between progressives and conservatives". With the launch of his independent candidacy and his use of anti-establishment rhetoric, Macron has been labelled a "populist" by some observers, notably Manuel Valls, but Macron rejects this term.[78][79]"

This is archetypal third way stuff.

[Geilinor]

Despite the EU referendum, Cameron was politically smart. He wouldn't have called a useless snap election and lost a majority. He was also socially centrist so that's a plus.

I'm not sure how one could call the man behind Brexit smart. That's not just a political mistake or a gaffe. That's the political miscalculation of a generation.

I did say with the exception of Brexit.

[Eol Sha]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

That's true, I guess, but Cameron is the one who scheduled the referendum. Not Farage. I guess from the outside-looking-in, May's miscalculation just isn't on par with that of Cameron's. Not even close.

[Eol Sha]

I'm not sure how one could call the man behind Brexit smart. That's not just a political mistake or a gaffe. That's the political miscalculation of a generation.

I did say with the exception of Brexit.

You said "despite". Pretty synonymous if you ask me.

[Questers]

This is archetypal third way stuff.

I would rather look at the actual institutions of France though, and how much Macron is going to change: I think when he leaves, France will still be more left-wing than Britain. Sarkozy wanted to do similar things, but France was still doing all the leftist stuff that you get roasted for if you propose here, like public rail and energy and so on.

I get your point actually, I just think the context is different - because for two years people have said that you can't run on a left-wing ticket and now the left-wing ticket has done very well. The picture is that there are lots of leftist labour people who want to be more leftist but think it's not electable - I actually think this picture is untrue, but it does put paid to that concept.

[Rio Cana]

So the PM. of the UK. gambled and lost. Instead of acquiring unlimited power to pass legislation, she now has to form a coalition with another political party. And she picks an unknown (when it comes to most people around the world) political party which most find leans to far one way.

Kind of reminds you of another election decades ago which also involved a small political party which in the end got the upper hand (see the following) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf-HZz5Qv8E

[Dumb Ideologies]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

That's true, I guess, but Cameron is the one who scheduled the referendum. Not Farage. I guess from the outside-looking-in, May's miscalculation just isn't on par with that of Cameron's. Not even close.

At the core the fault lies with Heath, I say

[Great Nepal]

Despite the EU referendum, Cameron was politically smart. He wouldn't have called a useless snap election and lost a majority. He was also socially centrist so that's a plus.

I'm not sure how one could call the man behind Brexit smart. That's not just a political mistake or a gaffe. That's the political miscalculation of a generation.

To be fair during the campaign period no one expected conservative to get majority singlehandedly, so making popular promises which you can latter say "we had to give up because of x party" makes some degree of sense.
Essentially Cameron gambled electoral goodwill on not wining the election while May gambled parliamentary majority on winning bigger parliamentary majority. I'd say former is probably more understandable...

[Olerand]

1- Yes, and no. He's "in the middle" on the welfare State in France (he wants to cut costs, but supports instituting a universal unemployment welfare, as opposed to the current system where those who quit their job cannot file for unemployment). However, of course, the welfare State is already broader and more liberal in its spending in France than the UK, and this is just the baseline one is working from. So if Macron is "to the center" on this, it makes him "to the left" in the UK, but I wouldn't say to the left of Corbyn.
2- A given really. Everyone from the radical right to the radical left in France believes in the necessity of the State maintaining shares in vital industries, like defense, energy, etc.
3- Yes, and no. He has not proposed to privatize the SNCF, but per EU rules, rail will be open to competition in 2021. We will see what Macron thinks of the SNCF then. EDF is also publicly owned up to 85% or so I believe, though every successive government (including those of the left) have sold parts of it in efforts to get some cash quick, back when the energy market hadn't collapsed and EDF was still worth something. I predict a future for EDF like that of what is now Engie, previously GDFSuez, and before that Gaz de France; slow and gradual privatization. Politicians might promise otherwise, as the right did in the mid-2000s when it merged GDF and Suez, and they promised the State will maintain a majority share, then the State only maintained 1/3, but (mostly) privatization is inevitable.
4- True, to an extent. He is Blairite, but in France. The center being to the left in France of course means he is to the left of the UK center, even though he is centrist and by no means of the left. That does not mean he is to the left of Corbyn, however.

France's government owns shares in much more than defence and energy. Remember that my post was just in reply to what Hydesland said (which is not a totally unfair analysis) that we now think that centrism here is dead but when Macron won nobody had anything to say - well, it seems to me that what the centrist consensus is in France is similar enough to what the left-wing consensus is here. France is a more leftist country than Britain. We all know that, surely.

True enough, and France's State does indeed own more than just shares in defense and energy, it's just that its participation in Renault or PSA is not an accepted fact for all. There are many who think the State should leave PSA/Renault/Orange etc. and they're not entirely wrong.

As far as I'm aware, Macron supports the broad consensus in France - that means much more welfare spending than Corbyn is proposing, and part-ownership of the state in the country's major utilities, including nationally owned rail and energy companies. So while Macron might be "Blair", he's French Blair. And French Blair is very left wing in this country.

Just check his wiki:

"Macron has been described by some observers as a social liberal[59][60][61][62][63] and by others as a social democrat.[64][65][66] During his time in the French Socialist Party, he supported the party's centrist wing,[67] whose political stance has been associated with "third way" policies advanced by Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and Gerhard Schröder, and whose leading spokesman has been former prime minister Manuel Valls.[68][69][70][71] Overall Macron is largely seen as a centrist.[2][4][5][7][9][10]

Macron has notably advocated in favor of the free market and reducing the public-finances deficit.[72] He first publicly used the term "liberal" to describe himself in a 2015 interview with Le Monde. He added that he is "neither right nor left" and that he advocates "a collective solidarity".[73][74] During a visit to the Puy du Fou in Vendée with Philippe de Villiers in August 2016, he stated, "Honesty compels me to say that I am not a socialist."[75] He explained that he was part of the "left government" because he wanted "to serve the public interest" as any minister would.[76] In his book Revolution, published in November 2016, Macron presents himself as both a "leftist" and a "liberal ... if by liberalism one means trust in man."[77] With his party En Marche!, Macron's stated aim is to transcend the left–right divide in a manner similar to François Bayrou or Jacques Chaban-Delmas, asserting that "the real divide in our country ... is between progressives and conservatives". With the launch of his independent candidacy and his use of anti-establishment rhetoric, Macron has been labelled a "populist" by some observers, notably Manuel Valls, but Macron rejects this term.[78][79]"

This is archetypal third way stuff.

By no (French) understanding is Macron of the center of the PS. The center of the PS is Hollande, Ayrault, and previously Jospin. Valls is to the right, and Macron was to the right of the right. He is centrist, certainly (though centrism in France is actually center-right), but absolutely not centrist in the PS.

[Nova Stephania]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

I honestly think Cameron's blunder had less to do with the popularity of UKIP and more to do with trying to deal with the Euro-sceptic wing of his own party.

[Gauliscia]

If I may say so, nationalised industries isn't necessarily a 'left wing' policy.

[Eol Sha]

That's true, I guess, but Cameron is the one who scheduled the referendum. Not Farage. I guess from the outside-looking-in, May's miscalculation just isn't on par with that of Cameron's. Not even close.

At the core the fault lies with Heath, I say

Heath Ledger? I agree. All this crazy wouldn't be happening if we had Batman and the Joker duking it out on the silver screen.

[Olerand]

If I may say so, nationalised industries isn't necessarily a 'left wing' policy.

Well that depends on the country. On the Continent, mostly, that is true. In Britain, it is to the left. In America, it is to the far-left, etc.

[Rio Cana]

NI. hit the jackpot. Chances are hugh transfer of money from the UK. central government to NI. will be the result of this coalition. Time to keep an eye out on NI. politicians buying new expensive homes across the border in the Irish Republic.

[Eol Sha]

I'm not sure how one could call the man behind Brexit smart. That's not just a political mistake or a gaffe. That's the political miscalculation of a generation.

To be fair during the campaign period no one expected conservative to get majority singlehandedly, so making popular promises which you can latter say "we had to give up because of x party" makes some degree of sense.
Essentially Cameron gambled electoral goodwill on not wining the election while May gambled parliamentary majority on winning bigger parliamentary majority. I'd say former is probably more understandable...

The problem is that that gamble led to Brexit. Like I said, I think that's a far bigger miscalculation than just losing your, admittedly threadbare, majority.

[Paquador]

Just want to point out that there actually isn't a 'coalition' so stop using the term. Tories are setting up a minority government with the DUP supporting them on the Queens speech and the budget, and other issues vote by vote.

[Italios]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

That's true, I guess, but Cameron is the one who scheduled the referendum. Not Farage. I guess from the outside-looking-in, May's miscalculation just isn't on par with that of Cameron's. Not even close.

Cameron and May both supported remaining in the EU.

[Souseiseki]

The man behind Brexit is Nigel F, not David C.

such a great idea that he immediately fucked off to america and confirmed he would say there if brexit went badly

[Eol Sha]

That's true, I guess, but Cameron is the one who scheduled the referendum. Not Farage. I guess from the outside-looking-in, May's miscalculation just isn't on par with that of Cameron's. Not even close.

Cameron and May both supported remaining in the EU.

I know. Just makes the miscalculation on Cameron's part all the bigger in my eyes.

[Gauliscia]

If I may say so, nationalised industries isn't necessarily a 'left wing' policy.

Well that depends on the country. On the Continent, mostly, that is true. In Britain, it is to the left. In America, it is to the far-left, etc.

Yes but as a basic concept. That said, I think the whole left right spectrum is completely useless when referring to political parties in a legislative chamber.