Right Wing Discussion Thread IX: The Right Man's Burden

[Crysuko]

fully concious, self aware and considerably larger. those stem cells are none of the above, they are small, have no conciousness or awareness. they barely count as human at all.

Why does any of that matter? They're still just systems of cells and tissues. The consciousness is just an organ.

the counciousness comes from the brain, which that clump of cells doesn't have. and do you even know what stem cells are, they're undifferentiated and uniform. at the point where most abortions happen there are no or very few different cell and tissue types.

[The Parkus Empire]

As I said before, if we reduce things to pure materialism, then a fully grown human being is also just a more complicated collection of cells and tissues.

fully concious, self aware and considerably larger. those stem cells are none of the above, they are small, have no conciousness or awareness. they barely count as human at all.

I think the issue hinges on whether the mother is responsible prior to birth, or only after. Which in turn hinges on whether society includes the unborn; classical conservatism understands society in an eternalist sense (all points in time are real), including the dead, living and unborn. Whereas liberalism has a presentist (only the present is real) conception of society. I'm extremely critical of conservatism in general, but that is because I am a classical conservative. Environmental disregard by conservatives, for instance, is to me a product of presentism.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Why does any of that matter? They're still just systems of cells and tissues. The consciousness is just an organ.

the counciousness comes from the brain, which that clump of cells doesn't have. and do you even know what stem cells are, they're undifferentiated and uniform. at the point where most abortions happen there are no or very few different cell and tissue types.

Again, I don't see why complexity matters. It's assigning value where no greater objective value exists.

[War Gears]

I'm not a materialist, and I don't believe you have an accurate perception of Asian religions if you view them through such a narrow lens.

You believe that being is purely material, which is the definition of a materialist.

No, I do not believe that mental activity can be reduced solely to the material or biological. But I do not accept the existence of a soul.

Have you ever actually looked at history before the modern era?

Because unlike ancient times, we don't consider infanticide acceptable, or that adults should be able to have sex with someone as young as twelve (or nine, if we're looking at your prophet). The "pre-degenerate" era of human history is a myth. Even UMN's favorite idol Nicholas was probably not legitimate because one of his ancestors fucked a man who wasn't her husband.

Abortion is infanticide, they aren't separate.

A fertilized egg is not an infant, no matter which way you want to spin it. It can't be infanticide.

So a bunch of cells should be saved over a conscious toddler?

If we don't take into account the soul as being alive, then the toddler is also "a bunch of cells".

That's being extremely pedantic and I'm sure you're aware of that.

[Crysuko]

the counciousness comes from the brain, which that clump of cells doesn't have. and do you even know what stem cells are, they're undifferentiated and uniform. at the point where most abortions happen there are no or very few different cell and tissue types.

Again, I don't see why complexity matters. It's assigning value where no greater objective value exists.

so an ounce of lead is worth as much as a pound of gold? things, be they living or not have value assigned to them. a barely alive cell cluster is worth less than a living, breathing and thinking human. so let me ask you this, would you let a fully formed human die so an embryo the size of an asprin pill will live?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Again, I don't see why complexity matters. It's assigning value where no greater objective value exists.

so an ounce of lead is worth as much as a pound of gold? things, be they living or not have value assigned to them. a barely alive cell cluster is worth less than a living, breathing and thinking human. so let me ask you this, would you let a fully formed human die so an embryo the size of an asprin pill will live?

Then that would be relying on the consensus of society, which is itself a fallacy.

[Northern Davincia]

You believe that being is purely material, which is the definition of a materialist.

No, I do not believe that mental activity can be reduced solely to the material or biological. But I do not accept the existence of a soul.

Abortion is infanticide, they aren't separate.

A fertilized egg is not an infant, no matter which way you want to spin it. It can't be infanticide.

Ah, but a fetus one day prior to birth is an infant.

[Crysuko]

so an ounce of lead is worth as much as a pound of gold? things, be they living or not have value assigned to them. a barely alive cell cluster is worth less than a living, breathing and thinking human. so let me ask you this, would you let a fully formed human die so an embryo the size of an asprin pill will live?

Then that would be relying on the consensus of society, which is itself a fallacy.

i'm just trying to get you to see that a concious and developed human has more worth to them, their friends, family and so on than that ball of cells does to the woman carrying it who in this situation wants rid of it.

[The Parkus Empire]

No, I do not believe that mental activity can be reduced solely to the material or biological. But I do not accept the existence of a soul.

"Spirit" in philosophy means non-material being.

[War Gears]

No, I do not believe that mental activity can be reduced solely to the material or biological. But I do not accept the existence of a soul.

"Spirit" in philosophy means non-material being.

I think it was pretty clear that you were referring to it in a religious and metaphysical context, rather than simply using a fancy word for mental faculties.

[The Parkus Empire]

"Spirit" in philosophy means non-material being.

I think it was pretty clear that you were referring to it in a religious and metaphysical context, rather than simply using a fancy word for mental faculties.

The non-material is metaphysical, yes. The mental as non-material is referred to as Spirit in philosophy.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Then that would be relying on the consensus of society, which is itself a fallacy.

i'm just trying to get you to see that a concious and developed human has more worth to them, their friends, family and so on than that ball of cells does to the woman carrying it who in this situation wants rid of it.

And there's the appeal to emotion.

[Crysuko]

i'm just trying to get you to see that a concious and developed human has more worth to them, their friends, family and so on than that ball of cells does to the woman carrying it who in this situation wants rid of it.

And there's the appeal to emotion.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
and furthermore, that does nothing to answer my criticism

[United Muscovite Nations]

And there's the appeal to emotion.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
and furthermore, that does nothing to answer my criticism

I just wanted to point out that you couldn't justify your position.

I don't need emotion to justify mine, the soul, giving the qualia of life, is created at the moment of conception.

[Hakons]

And there's the appeal to emotion.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
and furthermore, that does nothing to answer my criticism

>Links to logical fallacy websites unironically

[Crysuko]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
and furthermore, that does nothing to answer my criticism

I just wanted to point out that you couldn't justify your position.

I don't need emotion to justify mine, the soul, giving the qualia of life, is created at the moment of conception.

I am a materialist, to me the idea of a soul as anything other than a metaphor is worthless. Also, my justification is that a full human is of more worth to the world and the people around them than an unwanted embryo.

[Hakons]

I just wanted to point out that you couldn't justify your position.

I don't need emotion to justify mine, the soul, giving the qualia of life, is created at the moment of conception.

I am a materialist, to me the idea of a soul as anything other than a metaphor is worthless. Also, my justification is that a full human is of more worth to the world and the people around them than an unwanted embryo.

I'm glad my humanity is defined by if I was wanted.

I am suspicious of your definition of what a full human actually is. We are constantly developing and changing, and a five year old is much less developed than a 25 year old. How can a five year old be considered "fully" human if they are not fully developed? Even more, how can a newborn be considered this? This is an arbitrary definition.

Almost all the pro-life crowd realizes that adult lives take precedent over the lives of fetuses. If the mother's life is in danger, than the mother is preferred. However, this is justified based on survivability, and not the arbitrary sense of inconveniency that most abortions are based upon.

[War Gears]

I think it was pretty clear that you were referring to it in a religious and metaphysical context, rather than simply using a fancy word for mental faculties.

The non-material is metaphysical, yes. The mental as non-material is referred to as Spirit in philosophy.

Again, it's pretty clear that you weren't just referring to it in that context. Even materialists recognize the existence of mind, though they believe it to be dependent on the brain.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I just wanted to point out that you couldn't justify your position.

I don't need emotion to justify mine, the soul, giving the qualia of life, is created at the moment of conception.

I am a materialist, to me the idea of a soul as anything other than a metaphor is worthless. Also, my justification is that a full human is of more worth to the world and the people around them than an unwanted embryo.

How do we define worth?

[The Parkus Empire]

The non-material is metaphysical, yes. The mental as non-material is referred to as Spirit in philosophy.

Again, it's pretty clear that you weren't just referring to it in that context. Even materialists recognize the existence of mind, though they believe it to be dependent on the brain.

Materialists don't recognize the existence of non-material mind, no. They think the mind is a biological computer, not a spirit.

[Crysuko]

I am a materialist, to me the idea of a soul as anything other than a metaphor is worthless. Also, my justification is that a full human is of more worth to the world and the people around them than an unwanted embryo.

How do we define worth?

[The Parkus Empire]

How do we define worth?

What is it made out of, Mr. Materialist?

[Lady Scylla]

What is it made out of, Mr. Materialist?

Holy crap, a wild Parkus.

[Crysuko]

What is it made out of, Mr. Materialist?

by the virtue of a full human is capable of interacting with people and adding to the world, an unwanted zygote or embryo cannot.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What is it made out of, Mr. Materialist?

by the virtue of a full human is capable of interacting with people and adding to the world, an unwanted zygote or embryo cannot.

Many things are capable of interacting with people, but we don't accord them the rights of humans. And there are many fully-grown humans who don't add any material benefits to the world, such as the severely disabled.